Enjoyed the rant and agreed with a lot of it. However, it is a bit rose tinted.
I do miss the terraces and the atmosphere they created. But they weren't closed because of Sky but Hillsborough. Live football was in declines in the 1980s. Attendances were down year on yer, grounds were unsafe and disgusting and there was an undertone of violence at many games.
I definately miss the days when Forest or Norwich had a shout at winning the top division. When you could just turn up at any top division ground and pay at the turstiles. When a whole terrace sang.
I don't miss wading through piss to get to a urinal, banana skins on the pitch or being chased by Villa fans or watching hundred of fans being crushed to death against "safety" fences.
[cite]Posted By: Wilma[/cite]I started going to football at Watling Street to watch Dartford with my Dad. It did not involve drinking before the game, jumping around and shouting - he went to watch the match because he likes football.
The only reason I go now is because I like football.
I watch Charlton home games, occasional Dartford games and I watch a lot of Sky TV games. All because I like football. I do not go because I like to get drunk before the match, jump around and shout loads.
So, please don't rant at me if I don't get involved in the drinking, jumping, shouting or anti-Sky ranting. I am at heart just a football lover :-)
According to plenty on here you are not a "proper" fan unless you get drunk and abuse all around you if politely asked to sit down so others can watch the game they've purchased a ticket for with hard earned money.
I'm in the same category. Football at Charlton has almost always been a family affair one way or the other since I was first taken in 1963.
good post, and agree with most of the reminiscing.
questions for all the anti skyers.
how often did terrestrial channels show the goals from the lower leagues?
how many ryder cups and england away test match series have the terrestrial channels covered live and in full?
it wasn't that long ago that the only live football on tv was the fa cup final, the home internationals and the england v scotland schoolboys.
the current amount of live football may be too much for some. for them i suggest they do as i do when the x-factor comes on. use the remote and turn it over/off.
Great post choice, if only you did video montages... christ knows how good they might be ;-)
In all seriousness Germany has got it right on so many levels. Safe-standing, low prices, fantastic stadia that don't cost £500million, youth development, domestic club ownership, exciting, attacking football... the list goes on. There is no doubt that the Bundesliga is the most entertaining and competitive "top-level" league in Europe. The recent protests of terrace ticket prices being doubled for when the 'big' games roll around (now over 20 euros shock horror) rang the bells of irony.
p.s. DRF that comment is abhorrent and ignorant. disgraceful.
I like the passion of the article and agreed with some of it but I think it harks back to a past that never really existed.
Football has always drawn support from across the classes, unlike Rugby Union, hence its huge following and dominance of English sport. I say that as very much the working class son of a painter and decorator who took his sons to the Valley on a Saturday after a hard week's work.
Yes TV has changed football but it, and other technology, has changed the way we view all entertainment. The article was written on a computer for an internet forum. None of that in the good old days.
I agree that safe standing could and should be available but harking back to the huge surges and "atmosphere" of the old days while pointing the finger at "families" only undermines that. Old stadiums and terraces were unsafe and needed to go but what has attracted not just more women and families but people in general is not just seats but better facilities (my wife's shock that the ladies loos at the Valley had no lights, no paper and no door put her off for a long time). People stayed away because of the fear of, or actual, violence and the casual racism that was common place.
Society as a whole has changed and football has changed with it. Some of it for the better and some not.
As others have said some go to watch the game, others go with friends and family while others for a drink and a sing song, maybe some go for a combination or all three but just because you make a noise or just because you don't doesn't give you the right to dismiss those other fans who enjoy their football differently or insist that your way is the only way.
As regular live attendees of football matches we, and I include myself in this, tend to look down slightly on those who only watch on TV as "plastics" or not "real" fans. But we are in the minority, not them. And who makes that rule, who decides? Many more people buy Cds or DVDs of comedians or bands than see them live. If I didn't see the Beatles at the Cavern or The Jam at the Nashville am I not a real fan of their music?
Maybe we are like the people who refuse to give up their vinyl when everyone else listens to music on ipods or CDs - living in the past.
Football had to change after Hillsborough. I think we all agree about that. The events of that day were truly shocking and highlighted how badly organised we were.
Stewarding was ad-hoc before - Most only did it so they could see the match for free. It showed up the safety issues of the old grounds, how out of date they were (some still are). It lead to a revolution in football, it brought safety to the fore.
Stewards have to be trained now - Have City and Guilds certificates etc. An absolute fortune was spent on installing CCTV, pretty much why you are always being asked to stop filming is because of this - They can see you!!
It is ridiculous that football supporters are not allowed to drink alcohol in sight of the pitch, yet when a Rugby League match is played at the very same ground that regulation is not in place.
At the end of the day it was the Government in power at that time who chose which way to go, I'm sure that someone will correct me if i'm wrong but Safe Standing was an option in the Taylor report but Thatcher and her cronies ignored it. Instead giving us the all seater stadia and taking away a rite of passage for many a young man and woman.
As I said earlier, Football bacame trendy after Italia 90 and the football authorities capitalised with the Premier League's formation.
Choice, mate, we will never go back. It's long gone and it's something you have to accept. It was a different age. And yes you are getting older. We all are.
BTW - Lady in front of me in Bernies just asked for a black coffee.
Loved the passion of the original article and the real football comments. Agree with most of it but as someone from a younger generation who has grown up with the Sky revolution and 24/7 football, I find it hard to criticise and despise something that has made football and sport in general so accessible- especially to those real fans who have been priced out of watching their team week in week out (always over 45quid for 1 Arsenal/Chelsea ticket) or those who have had to move away and can't always get back to see their team.
Regarding Charlton there is no beating actually being there (give me Carlisle away over Final Score anyday) but for all other football, putting up with the SKY4 and numpties like Claridge is just a compromise that has to be made. Despite the faults and implications of the Sky revolution, I fail to see how things were better pre 1990 (when it seems football in general changed with italia 90), nowadays a football fan can not only watch his team live twice a week where it appears it is safer- the Milwall home games last season gave a tiny insight into what it was like at some ground many years ago with stewards getting beaten up, coins being thrown, infighting etc- do we really want a return to this? Also being able to watch the highlights on terrestrial is not bad thing despite Lizzy Posh Twat Hughes and for the rest of the week there are 4-5 other games on TV- The Premiership is far from perfect but there are still some amazing games to watch, even from the comfort of an armchair.
As for terracing, have only stood on a handfall and most of them in the last year. Prefer them in general but they are not to everyones taste. Would love the FA to allow Safe Standing in the top two leagues aswell- as personally think if we had safe standing Lower North and kept seats everywhere else- it would cater for everyone. Then if you are going with family, there is the comfort of the East/West, but if your with mates- there is the terrace North Lower.
I have to say Choice reading your article really struck a note with me; it really demonstrated the power of nostalgia.
I’m 31 years of age. I freely admit I didn’t start going to watch football until about the age of 14 when I started to go to the Valley as part of the ‘kid for a quid’ promotion.
I had never experienced standing on the terraces until I got a bit older and I started to travel to a few different grounds, in different countries. It doesn’t have the same emotional attachment for me, it has more of a novelty value.
Reading between the lines, it seems more to me that you yearn for a bygone age generally, not just in football, but in every aspect of life.
I can’t agree with you. There’s a lot about ‘modern’ football that I don’t like; the never ending hype, the ridiculous cost, TV fans, sanitised football and all the play acting. However, I personally feel that it is still an improvement on what went before it.
My wife is due to give birth to out first child next year and I can’t wait until my daughter is old enough for me to take her to the Valley. I know that the stadium I take her to will be a mix of genders, races and ‘classes’. I can sit her in the family section if I am worried about some of the language. I can take her into the North stand if I want her to experience the match with our most passionate fans. I have a choice about the type of experience she has.
Sky has done a lot of harm to the game but I can’t say pumping a lot of money into the game and opening up to a world audience is a bad thing. To someone who didn’t experience it, looking back at the game in the “good old days” it just looks grim.
Personally, Choice I don’t think you’re racist or sexist, I just think you’re getting old.
It's true that we shouldn't just point the finger at Sky, that's too convenient.
The culprits in my book are:
1. The useless prats at the FA (n.b. not the Football league) who allowed the formation of the FA Premier League as a separate entity. There was no call for it, and the Germans didnt do it.
2. The greedy bastard first division chairmen, in particular Alan Sugar, who engineered the FAPL, and therefore what should happen to the Sky money.
3. We the supporters who stayed tribal and failed to unite as a national group of supporters to campaign for a more sensible distribution of the Sky money, protection of schedules, terraces, pricing etc. How many of us here are members of the FSF? ( thought not, no me neither)
If those three things hadn't happened, Choice might have many of his wishes. There are 24,000 Choices standing on Borussia Dortmund's main terrace every home game.
It wasn't. There was a diversity on a working class terrace, that was also seen on the pitch. Maybe there wasn't an intellectual diversity that say American Football always attracted throughout American society. Sure there was a hella of a lot of shit to put up with, and more racism than you could stir your coffee with but....
The modern English footballer is way above the standard you saw in the top leagues twenty years ago, but it doesn't takeaway the magic of footballers like Hoddle, Waddle, Beardsley, Barnes and even the lesser lights like Mickey Hazzard and our own Paul Mortimer. Football had plenty of imperfections but turning up and seeing fat Jim Stannard, or tree trunk Heritage, moustachioed warriors like Mountfield and Shaun Teale was great. The Hungarian 86 World Cup squad who all seemed to have Communist beards. Sure modern football's better but it's also intolerably boring in it's utter lack of meritocracy.
I can definitely say I enjoyed watching top flight football a hella of a lot more in the 80's than I do now.
Oh yeah and BDort are now campaigning against 24 euros to stand! I believe they're going to boycott their tier 1 matches.
[cite]Posted By: Covered End[/cite]Choice - would you have loved it as much on Saturday if we'd lost 5-1 ? :-) :-)
Your correct that the experience would have been different for sure...however iv been banging this drum for years, it was just that Saturday brought it back to the surface
Not sure what exactly you're trying to prove, FOD. I gave you three links that said they planned to either put seats in or build a new ground and another link saying why they would do such a thing.
You gave another link that said why they would plan to put seats in (the Scunthorpe link) and another that says nothing either way.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]It's true that we shouldn't just point the finger at Sky, that's too convenient.
The culprits in my book are:
1. The useless prats at the FA (n.b. not the Football league) who allowed the formation of the FA Premier League as a separate entity. There was no call for it, and the Germans didnt do it.
2. The greedy bastard first division chairmen, in particular Alan Sugar, who engineered the FAPL, and therefore what should happen to the Sky money.
3. We the supporters who stayed tribal and failed to unite as a national group of supporters to campaign for a more sensible distribution of the Sky money, protection of schedules, terraces, pricing etc. How many of us here are members of the FSF? ( thought not, no me neither)
If those three things hadn't happened, Choice might have many of his wishes. There are 24,000 Choices standing on Borussia Dortmund's main terrace every home game.
The Peterborough programme on Saturday mentioned the demolition of the Moy's End (Away) Terrace which will happen at the end of this season.
The amazing atmosphere of Saturday would not have been half as good if we had been sitting down (we couldn't really have done the bouncey bouncey either) and it was a real privilege to be there. The reason the authorities are so scared of terracing is that the terraces of the 1980's were mostly 50 or 60 years old and crumbling, together with the racism etc that was prevalent throughout society at that time. Plus safety measures had not been thought through. Germany shows that huge standing areas can be safe as well as conducive for a fantastic atmosphere, without compromising the attractiveness for families to take young children, given the large seated areas as well. Added to that is the fact that more fans can be accommodated.
you didnt even mention Sky's BRAND NEW invention of 3D football. This is my current greatest source of annoyance. If you want to watch football in 3D just buy a ticket and go to a match!!
Comments
I do miss the terraces and the atmosphere they created. But they weren't closed because of Sky but Hillsborough. Live football was in declines in the 1980s. Attendances were down year on yer, grounds were unsafe and disgusting and there was an undertone of violence at many games.
I definately miss the days when Forest or Norwich had a shout at winning the top division. When you could just turn up at any top division ground and pay at the turstiles. When a whole terrace sang.
I don't miss wading through piss to get to a urinal, banana skins on the pitch or being chased by Villa fans or watching hundred of fans being crushed to death against "safety" fences.
According to plenty on here you are not a "proper" fan unless you get drunk and abuse all around you if politely asked to sit down so others can watch the game they've purchased a ticket for with hard earned money.
I'm in the same category. Football at Charlton has almost always been a family affair one way or the other since I was first taken in 1963.
I'm really pleased you've come out mate.
Each to their own I say.
I noticed that and wondered who'd be first to point it out! :-)
questions for all the anti skyers.
how often did terrestrial channels show the goals from the lower leagues?
how many ryder cups and england away test match series have the terrestrial channels covered live and in full?
it wasn't that long ago that the only live football on tv was the fa cup final, the home internationals and the england v scotland schoolboys.
the current amount of live football may be too much for some. for them i suggest they do as i do when the x-factor comes on. use the remote and turn it over/off.
In all seriousness Germany has got it right on so many levels. Safe-standing, low prices, fantastic stadia that don't cost £500million, youth development, domestic club ownership, exciting, attacking football... the list goes on. There is no doubt that the Bundesliga is the most entertaining and competitive "top-level" league in Europe. The recent protests of terrace ticket prices being doubled for when the 'big' games roll around (now over 20 euros shock horror) rang the bells of irony.
p.s. DRF that comment is abhorrent and ignorant. disgraceful.
Football has always drawn support from across the classes, unlike Rugby Union, hence its huge following and dominance of English sport. I say that as very much the working class son of a painter and decorator who took his sons to the Valley on a Saturday after a hard week's work.
Yes TV has changed football but it, and other technology, has changed the way we view all entertainment. The article was written on a computer for an internet forum. None of that in the good old days.
I agree that safe standing could and should be available but harking back to the huge surges and "atmosphere" of the old days while pointing the finger at "families" only undermines that. Old stadiums and terraces were unsafe and needed to go but what has attracted not just more women and families but people in general is not just seats but better facilities (my wife's shock that the ladies loos at the Valley had no lights, no paper and no door put her off for a long time). People stayed away because of the fear of, or actual, violence and the casual racism that was common place.
Society as a whole has changed and football has changed with it. Some of it for the better and some not.
As others have said some go to watch the game, others go with friends and family while others for a drink and a sing song, maybe some go for a combination or all three but just because you make a noise or just because you don't doesn't give you the right to dismiss those other fans who enjoy their football differently or insist that your way is the only way.
As regular live attendees of football matches we, and I include myself in this, tend to look down slightly on those who only watch on TV as "plastics" or not "real" fans. But we are in the minority, not them. And who makes that rule, who decides? Many more people buy Cds or DVDs of comedians or bands than see them live. If I didn't see the Beatles at the Cavern or The Jam at the Nashville am I not a real fan of their music?
Maybe we are like the people who refuse to give up their vinyl when everyone else listens to music on ipods or CDs - living in the past.
Stewarding was ad-hoc before - Most only did it so they could see the match for free. It showed up the safety issues of the old grounds, how out of date they were (some still are). It lead to a revolution in football, it brought safety to the fore.
Stewards have to be trained now - Have City and Guilds certificates etc. An absolute fortune was spent on installing CCTV, pretty much why you are always being asked to stop filming is because of this - They can see you!!
It is ridiculous that football supporters are not allowed to drink alcohol in sight of the pitch, yet when a Rugby League match is played at the very same ground that regulation is not in place.
At the end of the day it was the Government in power at that time who chose which way to go, I'm sure that someone will correct me if i'm wrong but Safe Standing was an option in the Taylor report but Thatcher and her cronies ignored it. Instead giving us the all seater stadia and taking away a rite of passage for many a young man and woman.
As I said earlier, Football bacame trendy after Italia 90 and the football authorities capitalised with the Premier League's formation.
Choice, mate, we will never go back. It's long gone and it's something you have to accept. It was a different age. And yes you are getting older. We all are.
BTW - Lady in front of me in Bernies just asked for a black coffee.
Define working class then
Chelsea was a better place when it was like that
Pullovers rather than cardigans.
Aye we never 'ad buttons in my day!
Only middle class people 'ad buttons :-)
thats a disgrace !
Regarding Charlton there is no beating actually being there (give me Carlisle away over Final Score anyday) but for all other football, putting up with the SKY4 and numpties like Claridge is just a compromise that has to be made. Despite the faults and implications of the Sky revolution, I fail to see how things were better pre 1990 (when it seems football in general changed with italia 90), nowadays a football fan can not only watch his team live twice a week where it appears it is safer- the Milwall home games last season gave a tiny insight into what it was like at some ground many years ago with stewards getting beaten up, coins being thrown, infighting etc- do we really want a return to this? Also being able to watch the highlights on terrestrial is not bad thing despite Lizzy Posh Twat Hughes and for the rest of the week there are 4-5 other games on TV- The Premiership is far from perfect but there are still some amazing games to watch, even from the comfort of an armchair.
As for terracing, have only stood on a handfall and most of them in the last year. Prefer them in general but they are not to everyones taste. Would love the FA to allow Safe Standing in the top two leagues aswell- as personally think if we had safe standing Lower North and kept seats everywhere else- it would cater for everyone. Then if you are going with family, there is the comfort of the East/West, but if your with mates- there is the terrace North Lower.
I’m 31 years of age. I freely admit I didn’t start going to watch football until about the age of 14 when I started to go to the Valley as part of the ‘kid for a quid’ promotion.
I had never experienced standing on the terraces until I got a bit older and I started to travel to a few different grounds, in different countries. It doesn’t have the same emotional attachment for me, it has more of a novelty value.
Reading between the lines, it seems more to me that you yearn for a bygone age generally, not just in football, but in every aspect of life.
I can’t agree with you. There’s a lot about ‘modern’ football that I don’t like; the never ending hype, the ridiculous cost, TV fans, sanitised football and all the play acting. However, I personally feel that it is still an improvement on what went before it.
My wife is due to give birth to out first child next year and I can’t wait until my daughter is old enough for me to take her to the Valley. I know that the stadium I take her to will be a mix of genders, races and ‘classes’. I can sit her in the family section if I am worried about some of the language. I can take her into the North stand if I want her to experience the match with our most passionate fans. I have a choice about the type of experience she has.
Sky has done a lot of harm to the game but I can’t say pumping a lot of money into the game and opening up to a world audience is a bad thing. To someone who didn’t experience it, looking back at the game in the “good old days” it just looks grim.
Personally, Choice I don’t think you’re racist or sexist, I just think you’re getting old.
The culprits in my book are:
1. The useless prats at the FA (n.b. not the Football league) who allowed the formation of the FA Premier League as a separate entity. There was no call for it, and the Germans didnt do it.
2. The greedy bastard first division chairmen, in particular Alan Sugar, who engineered the FAPL, and therefore what should happen to the Sky money.
3. We the supporters who stayed tribal and failed to unite as a national group of supporters to campaign for a more sensible distribution of the Sky money, protection of schedules, terraces, pricing etc. How many of us here are members of the FSF? ( thought not, no me neither)
If those three things hadn't happened, Choice might have many of his wishes. There are 24,000 Choices standing on Borussia Dortmund's main terrace every home game.
The modern English footballer is way above the standard you saw in the top leagues twenty years ago, but it doesn't takeaway the magic of footballers like Hoddle, Waddle, Beardsley, Barnes and even the lesser lights like Mickey Hazzard and our own Paul Mortimer. Football had plenty of imperfections but turning up and seeing fat Jim Stannard, or tree trunk Heritage, moustachioed warriors like Mountfield and Shaun Teale was great. The Hungarian 86 World Cup squad who all seemed to have Communist beards. Sure modern football's better but it's also intolerably boring in it's utter lack of meritocracy.
I can definitely say I enjoyed watching top flight football a hella of a lot more in the 80's than I do now.
Oh yeah and BDort are now campaigning against 24 euros to stand! I believe they're going to boycott their tier 1 matches.
Your correct that the experience would have been different for sure...however iv been banging this drum for years, it was just that Saturday brought it back to the surface
You gave another link that said why they would plan to put seats in (the Scunthorpe link) and another that says nothing either way.
Spot on Richard, spot on.
The amazing atmosphere of Saturday would not have been half as good if we had been sitting down (we couldn't really have done the bouncey bouncey either) and it was a real privilege to be there. The reason the authorities are so scared of terracing is that the terraces of the 1980's were mostly 50 or 60 years old and crumbling, together with the racism etc that was prevalent throughout society at that time. Plus safety measures had not been thought through. Germany shows that huge standing areas can be safe as well as conducive for a fantastic atmosphere, without compromising the attractiveness for families to take young children, given the large seated areas as well. Added to that is the fact that more fans can be accommodated.
Football fans should have the choice.
And that my son...is football !