[quote][cite]Posted By: Salad Spinner[/cite]Trevor Phillips may be a fool but I doubt he has asked if there is any difference between apartheid and multi culturalism.[/quote]
And I'd add someone who is a bit of a rent-a-quote...
However we've been here before with these sort of loaded questions and dodgy, not to say deliberate interpretations of meanings...the OP has form for starting these duscussions and then for petulantly crying foul when questioned on his motives...
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]It's all going to the dogs, the kids in the streets with rickets and selling matches, the millions on the dole, rations blah blah blah.
I'm going to move to Spain, and join the rest of the English out there destroying culture.
Ahem, it's en'ancing it when we do it, innit?
innit just, I'm going to go and live in Spain, read the Daily Vile, drink PG tips, and complain that them brownish people don't speak English at the supermarket. Sod learning Spanish.
Give me the mix of London, over the dullness of Costa Del Sidcup
Rothko,
I sense an element of of tongue in cheek with this post!
Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English?
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]It's all going to the dogs, the kids in the streets with rickets and selling matches, the millions on the dole, rations blah blah blah.
I'm going to move to Spain, and join the rest of the English out there destroying culture.
Ahem, it's en'ancing it when we do it, innit?
innit just, I'm going to go and live in Spain, read the Daily Vile, drink PG tips, and complain that them brownish people don't speak English at the supermarket. Sod learning Spanish.
Give me the mix of London, over the dullness of Costa Del Sidcup
You're going to have to explain to me these digs at Sidcup mate because i'm really not getting it.
You live between Plumstead and Woolwich, a total of five miles away from Sidcup. If Woolwich is in 'the mix of London' then Sidcup must equally be as well.
The road i dropped you off at three months ago was the road where my friend was hospitalised for eight days, and his girlfriend for 5 days, having been the victims of an unprovoked attack by a gang of Somalians, the reason being they were of jamaican origin.
Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English?
I think the English should learn it properly first before lecturing immigrants on whether they should learn it.
It's a truism that a certain group of people seem to think that foreigners have no desire to learn the language or fit in, again Len makes a bold statement but supplies no evidence to support it....
Given that the average Brit is unable to order anything more than a beer in French or German and who's knowledge of I|ndia starts and stops with the menu at a curry house any immigrants who don't speak English have to learn it in order to survive - sink or swim. I appreciate this doesn't fit in with the rhetoric but then facts rarely ever do...
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English?
I think the English should learn it properly first before lecturing immigrants on whether they should learn it.
It's a truism that a certain group of people seem to think that foreigners have no desire to learn the language or fit in, again Len makes a bold statement but supplies no evidence to support it....
Given that the average Brit is unable to order anything more than a beer in French or German and who's knowledge of I|ndia starts and stops with the menu at a curry house any immigrants who don't speak English have to learn it in order to survive - sink or swim. I appreciate this doesn't fit in with the rhetoric but then facts rarely ever do...
I thought len was asking a question, not making a 'bold statement'?
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]"there is really no need for the nasty little personal digs that permeate your posts. You diminish your otherwise excellent points by inserting them. It seems to be a favourite tactic of (usually) the left when they do not want to debate uncomfortable issues."
Lol...I said what? You are the one who cannot distinguish between apartheid (something which is a direct opposite of multi-culturalism) and a philosophy that essentially recognises that we are all equal and can contribute to a changing society.
"Please advise me how I misquoted Trevor Philips. It is my genuine belief that in the aftermath of 7/7 he questioned whether or not multi culturalism had gone too far."
By selectively quoting him and placing that next to a statement that purports to indicate that he opposes multi-culturalism...as for you being upset...apparently I accuse you of being a member of the KKK... just for the record where did I say that? Not making things up as you go along again are you?? Not that the "right" ever do that...
"For your information I do not live in SE London and I have relatives in Yorkshire hence I know something of the situation prevailing in Bradford. I also have a sister in law of Kenyan Asian extraction so I'm not a card carrying Ku Klux Klan member as I suspect you believe I may be!
I'm simply trying to stimulate a debate amongst the many intelligent people (you included) that frequent this forum. "
Ahh the good old I'm not a racist answer...I have black friends!!!...along with the perceived and heightened sense of injustice when your motives are questioned, not to mention your dubious interpretation of what I said...
If you don't want to read my replies fine...but don't spit your dummy out because I choose to disagree with you, ok??
Im not "spitting my dummy out". I just don't like some of the personal innuendo within your responses to my posts hence my Ku Klux Klan comment. This is not the first time you've done it to me and I 'd like to know what I've done to upset you.
I may express strong opinions from time to time but I've always tried to be courteous and polite to fellow posters and do not consider it unreasonable to be afforded the same courtesy in return.
...."Ahh the good old I'm not a racist answer...I have black friends!!!...along with the perceived and heightened sense of injustice when your motives are questioned, not to mention your dubious interpretation of what I said"...
Why is such a comment necessary? Is it racist to have a debate?
I'm fully aware of the difference between apartheid and muliculturalism in INTENT but the EFFECT is sometimes the same in certain areas. Hence my raising the topic in the way I did.
If it is a problem for you to conduct a debate without resorting to personal abuse carry on!
I thought len was asking a question, not making a 'bold statement'?
No...Len is repeating an urban myth and presenting it as fact. This is the "straw dog" approach to debating - select something totally ridiculous and try and make an argument out of it - if he'd posted a link from a news item eg immigarnts refuse to learn English or offered up some evidence to support his thesis then fine. Instead we get a fallacious argument evidently based on whatever the "Ku Klux Klan" are debating elsewhere today.
i like listening to all this and try to learn something from it. I would be incapable of adding intelligent reasoned response to either of you but find it disappointing when the supercilious mocking attitude kicks in.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]I thought len was asking a question, not making a 'bold statement'?
No...Len is repeating an urban myth and presenting it as fact. This is the "straw dog" approach to debating - select something totally ridiculous and try and make an argument out of it - if he'd posted a link from a news item eg immigarnts refuse to learn English or offered up some evidence to support his thesis then fine. Instead we get a fallacious argument evidently based on whatever the "Ku Klux Klan" are debating elsewhere today.
so, he's presenting an opinion that is different to yours and you're disagreeing with it? sounds like a debate to me. to me it sounds like you're getting angered by the fact he doesn't agree with you rather than the other way round.
Im not "spitting my dummy out". I just don't like some of the personal innuendo within your responses to my posts hence my Ku Klux Klan comment. This is not the first time you've done it to me and I 'd like to know what I've done to upset you.
Nope...you accused me of suggesting you were a member of the KKK...I merely asked you to substantiate that...you can't and are therefore putting words in my mouth. If you are going to quote me...try and do so accurately and perhaps also without recourse to the "typical of the left" meme and so on. There was no personal innuendo in my remarks, if anything by accusing me of calling you a member of the KKK etc it's you who is making the personal remarks, not me...
Therefore...
"I may express strong opinions from time to time but I've always tried to be courteous and polite to fellow posters and do not consider it unreasonable to be afforded the same courtesy in return."
I presume you are either being ironic...or are not checking what you wrote correctly...
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]I thought len was asking a question, not making a 'bold statement'?
No...Len is repeating an urban myth and presenting it as fact. This is the "straw dog" approach to debating - select something totally ridiculous and try and make an argument out of it - if he'd posted a link from a news item eg immigarnts refuse to learn English or offered up some evidence to support his thesis then fine. Instead we get a fallacious argument evidently based on whatever the "Ku Klux Klan" are debating elsewhere today.
You've lost me BFR! Rothko satirically made a point about the English abroad. I asked a simple question in response. You then state ...."Len is repeating an urban myth and presenting it as fact. This is the "straw dog" approach to debating - select something totally ridiculous and try and make an argument out of it"....
How can a question be fact?
...."Instead we get a fallacious argument evidently based on whatever the "Ku Klux Klan" are debating elsewhere today."......
You know full well why I made the Ku Klux Klan comment. It was because of your innuendo in previous posts.
"so, he's presenting an opinion that is different to yours and you're disagreeing with it? sounds like a debate to me. to me it sounds like you're getting angered by the fact he doesn't agree with you rather than the other way round. "
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency between what I said and what he thought I said.
When debating it helps to use "facts" not gossip or urban myths to back up any points you are making, something I don't think unreasonable...eg he makes a rather fatuous statement about immigrants not bothering to learn English, I want to know the provenance of this, surely it must exist somewhere as a "fact"? If Lenny can't offer a link to a reliable source I'll conclude it's made up and therefore not worth debating.
Otherwise what is the point of debating something that doesn't exist in fact? What next, perhaps how many angels can fit on a pin head....
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English?
in answer to your question len, i believe that if you relocate to another country you should be assisted with fitting in as much as possible, ie not made to feel like an outcast, and in turn, not purposely living in isolation from the existing society
i think immigrants should be helped with learning the english language if they are to reside and work here. i'm not saying perfect fluent english, but basic english yes.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Im not "spitting my dummy out". I just don't like some of the personal innuendo within your responses to my posts hence my Ku Klux Klan comment. This is not the first time you've done it to me and I 'd like to know what I've done to upset you.
Nope...you accused me of suggesting you were a member of the KKK...I merely asked you to substantiate that...you can't and are therefore putting words in my mouth. If you are going to quote me...try and do so accurately and perhaps also without recourse to the "typical of the left" meme and so on. There was no personal innuendo in my remarks, if anything by accusing me of calling you a member of the KKK etc it's you who is making the personal remarks, not me...
Therefore...
"I may express strong opinions from time to time but I've always tried to be courteous and polite to fellow posters and do not consider it unreasonable to be afforded the same courtesy in return."
I presume you are either being ironic...or are not checking what you wrote correctly...
Your first comment:
I suspect a leading question...
Your second comment:
....."I think by trying to work in and mis-quote Trevor Philips/ Campaign for Race Equality I think you are aiming to deliberately blur the distinctions to make some cheap point."......
Your third comment:
Like someone who lives in south east London is an expert on race in bradford...
My Ku Klux Klan Comment:
......"For your information I do not live in SE London and I have relatives in Yorkshire hence I know something of the situation prevailing in Bradford. I also have a sister in law of Kenyan Asian extraction so I'm not a card carrying Ku Klux Klan member as I suspect you believe I may be!".....
If I read too much into your posts then I apologise for any offence caused to you by my Ku Klux Klan remark. However I stand by my assertion that such asides are not necessary.
You are the one who wants a debate...I'm merely asking you to back up a statement with some facts, anything wrong in that? Now, you allege that immigrants refuse to learn English...fair enough...but for the nth time of asking....provide a link, something I can consider and write a lucid reply to...otherwise I'll conclude you are making it up, and if so then I consider it acceptable to question your motives for spreading something you can't substantiate....after all what's sauce for the goose...
"You know full well why I made the Ku Klux Klan comment. It was because of your innuendo in previous posts.[/quote]"
So, I see you now admit that I didn't make the statement...but you think I had the thought therefore it is admissable to publish it here...
Yep, but I didn't actually accuse you of anything did I???? Not something that I can say of you...
Your second comment:
....."I think by trying to work in and mis-quote Trevor Philips/ Campaign for Race Equality I think you are aiming to deliberately blur the distinctions to make some cheap point."......
And you juxtaposed a quote out of context, as though to imply that multi-cultalism is a bad thing...and I may remind you here that you were the one claiming that m/c and apartheid are the same thing...not me. Furthermore you disagreed with everyone who pointed out the differences, so in answer to part one...I am right to suspect a leading question surely?
Fair play this has been an emotive topic handled well, with all sides making their points (whatever the merits). Leave it now, take a step back and then let's resume if we want at a later date without any further personal bickering.
"....You are the one who wants a debate...I'm merely asking you to back up a statement with some facts, anything wrong in that? Now, you allege that immigrants refuse to learn English"...
Nowhere have I stated that immigrants refuse to learn English.
Rothko made a point about the English not learning Spanish. Part of my reponse was..."Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English? ".......
Now who is reading too much into posts?
David Blunkett when Home Secretary said something similar I believe.
i don't see how he's said that all immigrants refuse to learn English. he was just asking IF they should ALL be made to learn English. that's a different thing entirely. isn't it?
there are immigrants that do learn English, i work in a company where I'd say the majority are from overseas. i work in a multicultural company, and not all staff know English, the front of house staff do speak English, some to a better standard than others, but some of the back of house staff do not all speak English at all
IE, pot wash staff. surely they'd be more integrated and have a better chance of a better paid job, if they were assisted in learning English.
is there a facility available for immigrants to learn English? or are they just flung in at the deep end at the present moment at time?
I don't know enough about it to present links, and can only speak from personal experience/situations.
...."Trevor Phillips - who chairs the Commission for Racial Equality - meanwhile repeated his assertion that the term "multiculturalism" suggested separateness and had ceased to be useful in modern Britain. "......
BFR - "I think the English should learn it properly first before lecturing immigrants on whether they should learn it"
Should Bavarians then be forced to speak High German as opposed to their own language or a similarly Catalans, Basques, Corsicans etc and therefore Turks in Germany, North Africans in Spain & France not expected to learn German, Spanish and French respectively?
I dont think its too much to ask for an immigrant, of any colour, creed or nationality, to learn the language of the country they reside in. You of all people should understand that being an immigrant yourself.
Zeit wie viel jahre hast du Deutsch gesprochen? Und wenn hast du nach Deutschland verlagert?
I have Asian friends, born and bred in the UK, who have relatives that have lived in this country for 20yrs + who still only speak a small amount of English. How are we supposed to have a balanced and integrated society when a minority of the community are unable to communicate with majority and therefore are restricted to their own? Isn't this what has happened in towns such as Bradford? You don't need to live there to understand social issues.
Comments
And I'd add someone who is a bit of a rent-a-quote...
However we've been here before with these sort of loaded questions and dodgy, not to say deliberate interpretations of meanings...the OP has form for starting these duscussions and then for petulantly crying foul when questioned on his motives...
Rothko,
I sense an element of of tongue in cheek with this post!
Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English?
You're going to have to explain to me these digs at Sidcup mate because i'm really not getting it.
You live between Plumstead and Woolwich, a total of five miles away from Sidcup. If Woolwich is in 'the mix of London' then Sidcup must equally be as well.
The road i dropped you off at three months ago was the road where my friend was hospitalised for eight days, and his girlfriend for 5 days, having been the victims of an unprovoked attack by a gang of Somalians, the reason being they were of jamaican origin.
I think the English should learn it properly first before lecturing immigrants on whether they should learn it.
It's a truism that a certain group of people seem to think that foreigners have no desire to learn the language or fit in, again Len makes a bold statement but supplies no evidence to support it....
Given that the average Brit is unable to order anything more than a beer in French or German and who's knowledge of I|ndia starts and stops with the menu at a curry house any immigrants who don't speak English have to learn it in order to survive - sink or swim. I appreciate this doesn't fit in with the rhetoric but then facts rarely ever do...
I thought len was asking a question, not making a 'bold statement'?
Im not "spitting my dummy out". I just don't like some of the personal innuendo within your responses to my posts hence my Ku Klux Klan comment. This is not the first time you've done it to me and I 'd like to know what I've done to upset you.
I may express strong opinions from time to time but I've always tried to be courteous and polite to fellow posters and do not consider it unreasonable to be afforded the same courtesy in return.
...."Ahh the good old I'm not a racist answer...I have black friends!!!...along with the perceived and heightened sense of injustice when your motives are questioned, not to mention your dubious interpretation of what I said"...
Why is such a comment necessary? Is it racist to have a debate?
I'm fully aware of the difference between apartheid and muliculturalism in INTENT but the EFFECT is sometimes the same in certain areas. Hence my raising the topic in the way I did.
If it is a problem for you to conduct a debate without resorting to personal abuse carry on!
No...Len is repeating an urban myth and presenting it as fact. This is the "straw dog" approach to debating - select something totally ridiculous and try and make an argument out of it - if he'd posted a link from a news item eg immigarnts refuse to learn English or offered up some evidence to support his thesis then fine. Instead we get a fallacious argument evidently based on whatever the "Ku Klux Klan" are debating elsewhere today.
so, he's presenting an opinion that is different to yours and you're disagreeing with it? sounds like a debate to me. to me it sounds like you're getting angered by the fact he doesn't agree with you rather than the other way round.
Nope...you accused me of suggesting you were a member of the KKK...I merely asked you to substantiate that...you can't and are therefore putting words in my mouth. If you are going to quote me...try and do so accurately and perhaps also without recourse to the "typical of the left" meme and so on. There was no personal innuendo in my remarks, if anything by accusing me of calling you a member of the KKK etc it's you who is making the personal remarks, not me...
Therefore...
"I may express strong opinions from time to time but I've always tried to be courteous and polite to fellow posters and do not consider it unreasonable to be afforded the same courtesy in return."
I presume you are either being ironic...or are not checking what you wrote correctly...
You've lost me BFR! Rothko satirically made a point about the English abroad. I asked a simple question in response. You then state ...."Len is repeating an urban myth and presenting it as fact. This is the "straw dog" approach to debating - select something totally ridiculous and try and make an argument out of it"....
How can a question be fact?
...."Instead we get a fallacious argument evidently based on whatever the "Ku Klux Klan" are debating elsewhere today."......
You know full well why I made the Ku Klux Klan comment. It was because of your innuendo in previous posts.
Eg. Do you think Liverpool fans should stop, or be made to stop, scavenging in dustbins for their evening meals?
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency between what I said and what he thought I said.
When debating it helps to use "facts" not gossip or urban myths to back up any points you are making, something I don't think unreasonable...eg he makes a rather fatuous statement about immigrants not bothering to learn English, I want to know the provenance of this, surely it must exist somewhere as a "fact"? If Lenny can't offer a link to a reliable source I'll conclude it's made up and therefore not worth debating.
Otherwise what is the point of debating something that doesn't exist in fact? What next, perhaps how many angels can fit on a pin head....
in answer to your question len, i believe that if you relocate to another country you should be assisted with fitting in as much as possible, ie not made to feel like an outcast, and in turn, not purposely living in isolation from the existing society
i think immigrants should be helped with learning the english language if they are to reside and work here. i'm not saying perfect fluent english, but basic english yes.
Your first comment:
I suspect a leading question...
Your second comment:
....."I think by trying to work in and mis-quote Trevor Philips/ Campaign for Race Equality I think you are aiming to deliberately blur the distinctions to make some cheap point."......
Your third comment:
Like someone who lives in south east London is an expert on race in bradford...
My Ku Klux Klan Comment:
......"For your information I do not live in SE London and I have relatives in Yorkshire hence I know something of the situation prevailing in Bradford. I also have a sister in law of Kenyan Asian extraction so I'm not a card carrying Ku Klux Klan member as I suspect you believe I may be!".....
If I read too much into your posts then I apologise for any offence caused to you by my Ku Klux Klan remark. However I stand by my assertion that such asides are not necessary.
You are the one who wants a debate...I'm merely asking you to back up a statement with some facts, anything wrong in that? Now, you allege that immigrants refuse to learn English...fair enough...but for the nth time of asking....provide a link, something I can consider and write a lucid reply to...otherwise I'll conclude you are making it up, and if so then I consider it acceptable to question your motives for spreading something you can't substantiate....after all what's sauce for the goose...
"You know full well why I made the Ku Klux Klan comment. It was because of your innuendo in previous posts.[/quote]"
So, I see you now admit that I didn't make the statement...but you think I had the thought therefore it is admissable to publish it here...
I think Orwell called this "thought crime"...
I suspect a leading question..."
Yep, but I didn't actually accuse you of anything did I???? Not something that I can say of you...
Your second comment:
....."I think by trying to work in and mis-quote Trevor Philips/ Campaign for Race Equality I think you are aiming to deliberately blur the distinctions to make some cheap point."......
And you juxtaposed a quote out of context, as though to imply that multi-cultalism is a bad thing...and I may remind you here that you were the one claiming that m/c and apartheid are the same thing...not me. Furthermore you disagreed with everyone who pointed out the differences, so in answer to part one...I am right to suspect a leading question surely?
Fair play this has been an emotive topic handled well, with all sides making their points (whatever the merits). Leave it now, take a step back and then let's resume if we want at a later date without any further personal bickering.
Nowhere have I stated that immigrants refuse to learn English.
Rothko made a point about the English not learning Spanish. Part of my reponse was..."Serious question though. Do you think immigrants to this country should learn or be made to learn English? ".......
Now who is reading too much into posts?
David Blunkett when Home Secretary said something similar I believe.
there are immigrants that do learn English, i work in a company where I'd say the majority are from overseas. i work in a multicultural company, and not all staff know English, the front of house staff do speak English, some to a better standard than others, but some of the back of house staff do not all speak English at all
IE, pot wash staff. surely they'd be more integrated and have a better chance of a better paid job, if they were assisted in learning English.
is there a facility available for immigrants to learn English? or are they just flung in at the deep end at the present moment at time?
I don't know enough about it to present links, and can only speak from personal experience/situations.
...."Trevor Phillips - who chairs the Commission for Racial Equality - meanwhile repeated his assertion that the term "multiculturalism" suggested separateness and had ceased to be useful in modern Britain. "......
Should Bavarians then be forced to speak High German as opposed to their own language or a similarly Catalans, Basques, Corsicans etc and therefore Turks in Germany, North Africans in Spain & France not expected to learn German, Spanish and French respectively?
I dont think its too much to ask for an immigrant, of any colour, creed or nationality, to learn the language of the country they reside in. You of all people should understand that being an immigrant yourself.
Zeit wie viel jahre hast du Deutsch gesprochen? Und wenn hast du nach Deutschland verlagert?
I have Asian friends, born and bred in the UK, who have relatives that have lived in this country for 20yrs + who still only speak a small amount of English. How are we supposed to have a balanced and integrated society when a minority of the community are unable to communicate with majority and therefore are restricted to their own? Isn't this what has happened in towns such as Bradford? You don't need to live there to understand social issues.