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Lest we Forget

edited June 2011 in Not Sports Related

1st July 1916. Just one day in history, 95 years ago.

A day which began at 7.30am for 519,324 men of the British Fourth army (Plus 3 divisions of the Third Army) across a front of 16 miles, from Gommecourt to Montauban just to the North of The River Somme; ended with 19,240 dead, 35,495 wounded, 2,152 missing and 585 caprtured. Total casulties of 57,470.

Never again.

RIP boys.

 

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Comments

  • Kitchener's Army introduction to modern warfare.

    RIP
  • RIP

    Lions led by Donkeys
  • A heartbreaking period of our history and truly, truly depressing.

    Such a waste...and what for?

    RIP

  • My Grandfather came back a broken man, lost an eye, shrapnel in one leg and gassed causing the loss of one lung. But at least he came back.

    RIP all you young men.
  • Never again?

    Except Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya.

    Not the same scale of casualties but even more futile.

     

  • I have just returned from a three day visit to the battlefields of the Somme.  A truly humbling experience.  The futility of making soldiers walk across open fields into the line of machine-guns and to certain death beggars belief.
  • Such a waste...and what for?

    Answer: War loving politicians (not naming names as controversial) 
  • Appreciate threads like this as they make you take stock

    Suddenly our waiting for a new CAFC news isn't that important any more .....

    Thanks Addickted
  • Mind blowing. RIP.
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  • currently reading 'the unknown soldier' by neil hanson. it really is a shocking period of world history. RIP.
  • RIP, such sacrifice is unimaginable now 

    But (and I am not questioning the bravery of the British and Commonwealth soldiers here, they were of course lions) they were not led by donkeys. If you think they were, read 'Mud, Blood and Poppycock' by Gordon Corrigan, who makes some terrific points about the unique challenges the war threw up for the leaders and generals. It may be true that there was no outstanding figure like Churchill in WW2, but that doesn't make them all incompetent. 


    Obviously I love Blackadder but it is a little sad that its portrayal of General Melchett (and Haig) has distorted the public view so much. No general was as bad as that.

    As I said, though, this is not to play down the sacrifice and loss of all who fought.
  • RIP, such sacrifice is unimaginable now 

    But (and I am not questioning the bravery of the British and Commonwealth soldiers here, they were of course lions) they were not led by donkeys. If you think they were, read 'Mud, Blood and Poppycock' by Gordon Corrigan, who makes some terrific points about the unique challenges the war threw up for the leaders and generals. It may be true that there was no outstanding figure like Churchill in WW2, but that doesn't make them all incompetent. 


    Obviously I love Blackadder but it is a little sad that its portrayal of General Melchett (and Haig) has distorted the public view so much. No general was as bad as that.

    As I said, though, this is not to play down the sacrifice and loss of all who fought.
    This. 
  • 2 sides i agree but on reading and studying WW1 & 2 my views aren't very kind to any of the countries involved and some of the politicians/rulers (includes 1 Winston Churchill)
  • It may be true that there was no outstanding figure like Churchill in WW2, but that doesn't make them all incompetent.


    You are aware that Churchill's contribution to the carnage in WWI was Gallipoli?
  • Churchill was a stuanch 'Easterner'. If they put the resources into the Gallipoli landings as he suggested (more naval power and combined landings), then the Turks would have capitulated and been taken out of the war three years earlier. It would probably have even prevented the Russian Revolution in 1917 and changed the face of Europe (and the World) as we knew it post war.

    The Turks at Gallipoli were well led (by a German) but had run out of mines to sink the ships and ammunition for the forts. If the Navy had taken the same attitude as the Army had later in the year (1915) there would have been more casulties for sure, but 1000s of lifes could have been saved at Verdun (French), The Somme in 1916, Passchendaele in 1917 and Amiens in 1918.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing.........

  • I am aware of that BFR, I never said that Churchill was an outstanding figure of WW1, just of WW2
  • Bump.

    RIP lads.
  • Went to Somme about 6 years ago now when I was 13/14. Even at the age, it was a very 'different' experience where realisation takes place. I learnt that there was a small Irish platoon decided to run across the Somme when the British soldiers were told to walk across. The youngest soldier (one of the Irish men) was 13 years old. That was a memory I'll never forget.
  • edited July 2012
    Such a sad day in British Holiday and the door between the old world and the new, everything after the 1st July 1916 was different, very different.

    The plan was simply for the Artillery to conquer and Infantry simply to occupy, after the longest and largest bombardment known to mankind we learnt the hard way that it had not worked. The men were advised they would be able to simply walk across (this is very different to being ordered), carrying enough kit to consolidate the newly captured ground against counter-attack, after the arrival of tanks in the September at the battle of Flers Courcelette this problem was largely overcome giving the troops far more freedom durning an assault.

    Its not oftened realised that the only unit advised to run not walk, The London Scottish at Gommecourt got very disorientated and found themselves advancing in the wrong direction where a dangerous gap opened up on their flanks.

    From a local perspective The 56th London Division made good ground and were on their objectives within the first hour, sadly the 46th North Midland Division were unable to break through to link up with them and the majority of London casualties were caused when a general withdrawal back to their start lines was made late in the day.

    Another often overlooked aspect of the first day was that only a third of attacking troops were New Army Kitchener man, from north to south the units involved were as follows,
    46th North Midland - Territorial
    56th London - Territorial
    31st Northern Pals - Kitchener
    4th Division - Regular
    29th Division - Regular
    36th Ulster - Kitchener
    32nd - Kitchener
    8th - Regular
    34th Tyneside - Kitchener
    17th Norther - Kitchener
    7th - Regular
    18th Eastern - Kitchener
    30th Manchester/Liverpool - Kitchener

    With most of the Kitchener units containing a brigade of regular soldiers it dispells the myth that the men were untrained infantry. Kitcheners Army had actually fought its first major battle almost a year earlier at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli on the 6/7 August 1915.

    The real failure was the failure of Kitcheners Artillery to destroy the German positions before the attack, the same Gunners 11 months later acheived this task at Messines, testament to training and the learning curve on the Somme.

    After 19,000 lives lost on the first day and 57,000 casualties however we dress it up the day was a disaster, one that thankfully was never repeated and its right that we remember this loss of innocence of the British Army every year.

    As a stand alone day, gains from Mametz to Montauban in the south (where the troops were assisted by the far superior French heavy guns) are all we had to show for the horrific losses, as a Battle the Somme does see the destruction of the German Regular Army, their own strict counter attack policy proved very costly for them and led to their withdrawal to the Hindenburg Line the following spring, it also ended any German offensive operations at Verdun enabling our senior partners the French the recovery time needed to carry on and the tactical and strategical lessons learnt the hard way undoubtably shortened the war in the long term.

    The Great War is always such an emotive subject and I am always heartened to see it debated on CL, for my part the Lions Led by Donkeys theory was one I moved rapidly away from the more I studied the campaign.

    I am lucky that my job allows me to study a subject that started off as my hobby to such depths, I know not of a single living credible historian that shares Alan Clarkes view, the phrase itself comes from the Franco Prussian war as opposed to 1914-18. His book was written and published prior to the records of the day being released and so today with the resources we have available to us, we can easily expose it as the very worst sort of history. I know this may ruffle a few feathers but it says much more about the time it was written as opposed to the war it tries to consider.

    As historians we do not sign up to any conspiracy or secret society or anything, its just the more we read the more we realise what a huge uncomparable conflict it was and one that, the 1st July 1916 aside, was largely not the one that exists in the public conciousness.

    Lest we forget lads, without your sacrifice days like the 8th August 1918 would not have been possible.....
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  • edited July 2012
    Went to Somme about 6 years ago now when I was 13/14. Even at the age, it was a very 'different' experience where realisation takes place. I learnt that there was a small Irish platoon decided to run across the Somme when the British soldiers were told to walk across. The youngest soldier (one of the Irish men) was 13 years old. That was a memory I'll never forget.
    Hi Rugby, just read the above, sorry to challenge what you say and not being pendantic but the troops you refer to were the 36th Ulster Divison, this is 12,000 riflemen where as a platoon is just 60 men, no one was ordered to walk only the London Scottish to run and as stated earlier this did not work.

    The ground the 36th attacked was a spur of highground south of Theipval, they actually reached the German 4th line positions before falling back later in the day to their original front line.

    I am not sure who your guide was and the main thing is that you went and saw the ground and remembered the sacrifices, so not having a pop at your post, just I have heard so many school groups being told total boll@x so often on battlefield tours that it gets me down.
  • Do you do tours for most battle fields my great grand father fought at Ypres and I would like to take my boy to see it with me
  • Yes NLA but look out for a CL pals tour that I have been thinking about, we could do that by splitting the costs if there was sufficient interest, would only need 7/8 of us, if it was after my tour season ends in November it would be a pleasure to take you and your lad
  • Sounds like an interesting plan mate if that dont come off I will Pick up with you about sorting something out as I am sure it would help piece together what we know already and bring some substance to the stories and medals
  • edited July 2012
    http://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/75117/TEBBY, G E

    This is a relative of mine who died in August 1916 at The Somme.

    George was a son of my great grandfather's brother (George's brother James and one of my great grandfather's sons, Samuel my great uncle, also died in World War One. The son of another of my great uncles, Ronald my first cousin once removed, died in World War 2 a lot of deaths for a family with only 200 odd people of that name according to the 1911 census).

    George was orphaned by the age of 10 and lived with other relatives. He was 24 or 25 when he died. There are no direct descendants to remember him just a few distant relatives like me.

    Hence please excuse my hi-jack of this thread and personal indulgence on his behalf.
  • edited July 2012
    Hi Len thats not hijacking and thankyou for sharing George's story with us, the 6/Queens were part of the 12th Eastern Division, Kitchener raised from London and the Home Counties in September 1914.

    From George's number 972 I am fairly confident that he joined around this time as a volunteer, as a corporal he obviously showed a degree of aptitude for soldiering, he would have arrived in France late May early June 1915. His first action would have been the Battle of Loos in September/October 1915 around a notorious sector known as the Hohenzollern Redoubt, it was during this action that their Divisional Commander, Major General Wing was killed in action (no chateau!).

    1916 saw him head south to the Somme where his battalion took part in the attack on Orvillers and Mash Valley on the 2 July as the Division pushed east up the Albert Road to Pozieres. It is most likely that George was mortally wounded in a smaller attack on Ration Trench at the back of the village on the 6 August,. this would also explain his burial in Warloy Baillon Cemetery. The cemetery is around 5/6 miles west of the Somme Battlefield adjacent to where a field ambulance was located. George appears to have died from his wounds a day or two after receiveing them whilst here.

    I hope the above sheds a little new light on his service for you, the Division by 1918 was regarded as one of the most competent we had and they led the line in the final advance to victory, George would have known the "Ace of Spades" Divisional flash that the 12 Division wore and the modern day 12 Brigade still wears within the British Army.

    Lastly, in case you have never been, the cemetery is stunning and currently in full bloom, I was there only a week ago, it also contains Major General Ingouville Williams (Inky Bill to his troops) who died on the Somme another General who was not ensconsed in his chateau, thats two in one post! I will pop a poppy cross on his grave when I next pass for you
  • edited July 2012
    Thanks for that SE7toSG3. I knew no more about George's war record than that contained on the CWGC site I linked.

    I've not visited The Somme as yet. I went to Ypres 20 years ago to see my great uncle Samuel's name on the Menin Gate and to look round the battlefields. It was an absolutely draining yet compulsive experience. 54,000 men missing presumed dead (two full Valleys to put it another way) and that's just the Menin Gate before you even start to see the endless rows of white gravestones in the various cemeteries. Not forgetting the black gravestones in the German cemeteries.

    In my view every politician should be compelled to tour the first world war battlefields and gain a full appreciation of the carnage of war. It may just stop them sending so many young men needlessly to death or life long serious injury.




  • I'd be up for the CL pals battlefield tour as would Addickted.

    Let us know where ans when.
  • Went to Somme about 6 years ago now when I was 13/14. Even at the age, it was a very 'different' experience where realisation takes place. I learnt that there was a small Irish platoon decided to run across the Somme when the British soldiers were told to walk across. The youngest soldier (one of the Irish men) was 13 years old. That was a memory I'll never forget.
    Hi Rugby, just read the above, sorry to challenge what you say and not being pendantic but the troops you refer to were the 36th Ulster Divison, this is 12,000 riflemen where as a platoon is just 60 men, no one was ordered to walk only the London Scottish to run and as stated earlier this did not work.

    The ground the 36th attacked was a spur of highground south of Theipval, they actually reached the German 4th line positions before falling back later in the day to their original front line.

    I am not sure who your guide was and the main thing is that you went and saw the ground and remembered the sacrifices, so not having a pop at your post, just I have heard so many school groups being told total boll@x so often on battlefield tours that it gets me down.
    Well I will definitely go back and visit again. Thank you for the true story.
  • TEBBY, SAMUEL
    Rank:Private
    Service No:6987
    Date of Death:15/11/1914
    Age:29
    Regiment/Service:Bedfordshire Regiment
    1st Bn.
    Panel ReferencePanel 31 and 33.
    MemorialYPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
    Additional Information:
    Husband of Grace Tebby, of 183, Livingstone Rd., Thornton Heath, Surrey.


    Please forgive my resurrecting this thread but my Great Uncle Sam died for his country 98 years ago today.
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