Friday's Moral Maze - Speed Limits

Henry Irving

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7bfc836a-eab3-11e0-aeca-00144feab49a.html#axzz1ZQ3xSVqu

So the proposal is that motorway speed limits could rise to 80mph but some limits on smaller roads be lowered.

Would driving faster ease congestion or would an 80 limit mean people then pushed this to 85 or 90?

Driving at 80 as opposed to 70 consumes 20% more fuel and causes a proportionately higher rate of emissions according to the article so a negative environmental impact.

But the current limit was set in 1965 since when cars have changed dramatically and many people already drive at over 70 mph

And how would this hit the UKs record as one of the safest places to drive in the world?

Discuss

tangoflash

The extra 10mph adding 20% to your fuel consumption doesn't really add up. This would vary greatly depending on the vehicle and size of engine. I normally drive at around 80mph when on the motorways (speed camera's permitting) as do a majority of people. Putting it up to 80mph would just make everyone push it to 90. You know the old saying of giving an inch and taking a mile.
Adding to this that in my opinion, the standard of driving in this country has become shocking in the last 20 years, my vote would be to just leave it be.

Rizzo

The 70mph limit is pretty ridiculous in this day and age. Cars are faster and safer than they were 45 years ago. I also suspect that a crash at 80mph will leave you just as dead as a crash at 70mph. Would be interesting to see some stats from the German autobahns and other high speed roads.

Southendaddick

Some of the speed limits in this country are ridiculous.

If I drive to Charlton I am allowed to do 60mph on narrow country lanes yet when I get near Dagenham on the 3 lane A13 I am only allowed to do 40mph and 50mph after Barking.

I also believe give an inch and take a mile will happen but I also think there should be different limits for different conditions.

Driving down the M1 at 2 in the morning on a mild Wednesday morning from Rochdale you should be allowed to go at 100mph.

Yet driving in busier conditions 70 is more than adequate.

Stig

Agree with Southendaddick about some of the ridiculous speed limits, A13 being an excellent example.  There's a dual carriage way near me (also southend), the speed limit all the way down it is 30mph, until you get to about 20 yards from the end where there's a roundabout that you have to slow down for; the speed limit miraculously goes up to 50mph.

Agree about variable speed limits too.  Not sure that Germany is a good comparison though, I think their roads tend to be less congested. 

Rizzo

Not sure that Germany is a good comparison though, I think their roads tend to be less congested. 

I wonder if they are less congested because of the higher speed limit though? I know, for example, when they introduced a 50mph limit on the A2 from Bexley (London bound) they also put signs up saying "Queues Likely" which turned out to be true, whereas you hardly saw any queues that far out at a 70mph limit.

eaststandmike

I didn't know we had speed limits, when were these introduced ;-)

Greenie

Speed has nothing to do with congestion, I would suggest that the fact that there are too many cars on the road has.

Also the pr!cks that inhabit the middle lanes at 69 mph should be banned from driving, it has got ridiculous, near Bluewater there are now 4 lanes and these arseholes now sit in lane 3?? Getting these fools to move over into the clear inside lane would ease congestion and allow me to barrel along the motorway to my hearts content.

redman

Driving at 80 mph is no more dangerous than driving at 70 if you drive properly. The trouble is how few people know how to drive properly on a motorway. At 80 you should leave more distance than at 70 and more than at 50. Sounds obvious doesnt it (and I feel stupid saying it), but does it happen - no way!.

Having said that 80 is not fast on a clear motorway and should be brought in but using variable speed limits when it is busy

 

EGAddick

Wider roads ease congestion, not raising speed limits.  4 lane motorways cope with far higher demand because basically HGV's aren't pulling out in front of traffic into the middle lane and causing 'phantom' tailbacks.  It's no coincidence that the worst sections of the M25 are where it's either still 3 lane or where 4 or 5 lane sections are split in half 2/2 or 2/3.

It was the lack of foresight from the original planners that has got congestion where it is.  The Tories have been on about raising the speed limit for 20 yrs, I can't see it happening - not when we have situations now where local authorities are requesting speed limit reductions everywhere in and around towns and even out in the smaller B-roads.

Floyd Montana

Wider roads ease congestion,

Kind of but not strictly true - they transfer the congestion to another location.
The M25 congestion is often where a wider section turns into a narrower section. Think of hoses and water flow.

EGAddick

Indeed, and driving to Heathrow and back nearly every Friday night for the last 6 months I can testify that the worst section is where the M25 crosses with the M3, in both directions as 5 lanes becomes 2 and a 3.

Rizzo

Speed has nothing to do with congestion, I would suggest that the fact that there are too many cars on the road has.

Also the pr!cks that inhabit the middle lanes at 69 mph should be banned from driving, it has got ridiculous, near Bluewater there are now 4 lanes and these arseholes now sit in lane 3?? Getting these fools to move over into the clear inside lane would ease congestion and allow me to barrel along the motorway to my hearts content.

There is at least a partial relationship between speed and congestion, particularly where that speed is enforced, eg cameras. The previous example I gave of the A2? Well that developed congestion pretty much overnight when they put the 50mph limit in and shoved a camera or two in there to make sure people slammed the anchors on.

I do agree about driving in the middle lane etc. I often drive late at night along the M20 and find myself having to either undertake or move out from the inside to the outside to overtake some prat who's trundling along at 65mph in the middle lane.

stilladdicted

Odd time to be bringing this up and it runs contrary to the fuel consumption/emissions issues. I suspect that this is another Tesco economics policy - more tax revenues cos every little helps.

stilladdicted

I do agree about driving in the middle lane etc. I often drive late at night along the M20 and find myself having to either undertake or move out from the inside to the outside to overtake some prat who's trundling along at 65mph in the middle lane.

Sorry about that ;-)

Greenie

I do agree about driving in the middle lane etc. I often drive late at night along the M20 and find myself having to either undertake or move out from the inside to the outside to overtake some prat who's trundling along at 65mph in the middle lane.

Sorry about that ;-)

Grrr...*shakes fist!  ;o)

Friend Or Defoe

I predict moving the limit from 70mph to 80mph will make no difference to the motorways.

McBobbin

I thought it was re case that if everyone drives at the same speed, they get to their destinations faster than if people drove at different speeds (on average). All to do with traffic flow I believe

Elthamaddick

I predict moving the limit from 70mph to 80mph will make no difference to the motorways.

who drives at 70 anyway?

tangoflash

I think the main cause of congestion is actually down to poor driving. Most drivers react AFTER an incident, yet if they were really paying attention they could anticipate what's going to happen in front of them and react beforehand. I saw a programme a few years ago that showed a main interstate that goes into New york (I think). One incident of a driver reacting late and having to slam on his brakes seemed minor and he then just carried on as normal. However, this caused a chain reaction and within 10 minutes had caused total gridlock. How many times have you sat in traffic expecting to see an accident, only to find there was no apparent reason for it?

I've been driving for close to 30 years and have never had an accident (apart from my rally driving in NI). This includes driving heavy goods and coaches. I put it down to the fact that I'm constantly looking at least 3 cars in front and anticipating what the idiots are doing, and you can't do that if you're hanging on someone's bumper.
I can normally predict if he/she is going to brake or pull out before they know themselves.

This is not me boasting about my driving skills, it's just common sense and being aware of my surroundings.

I agree that some speed limits are just plain stupid (I hate the 50mph restriction from beleyheath) but I think that 70mph is about right.

thenewbie

People who drive at 80 would drive at 80 regardless of the 'actual' speed limit. Similarly there will people who drive below the speed limit whatever it may be. If you go 10mph faster, even if they speed up similarly the situation won't actually have changed.

Saga Lout

If the speed limit was put up to 80mph, personally I don't think it would change the speed that I drive at, it would just mean that I was "legal" more of the time.

Car safety has improved hugely since the 1960s, so an increase in the limit seems logical to me.

razil

this is a classic case of "statistics"  as someone pointed out above people already drive at 80 so would this really have much impact on any of the stats

I think the reality is they are trying to win votes and nothing more

I took a road awareness course and the guy swore blind that our infrastructure i.e. crash barriers and the like, were designed for impact for current limits, any change would mean upgrading a heck of a lot of road (but I guess being the government they know about this right???)

Rizzo

I guess it depends what the intent is. If they are saying "We're raising the limit by 10mph but we're going to nick anyone going over it by even 1mph" or "We're raising the limit by 10mph and will still allow a certain amount of leeway before we nick you". One is basically legalising what is already happening (most people driving 70-80mph), the other is genuinely attempting to increase the speed at which we can drive.

Friend Or Defoe

I predict moving the limit from 70mph to 80mph will make no difference to the motorways.

who drives at 70 anyway?

Exactly. It won't make any difference, personally I'll put it at 100mph.

richie8

The cars in the 60s very few could actually do 70! I remember my Dad buying a new car in 76 and he did 70 for the first time! I think its a good idea but I agree heavily with what Tangoflash is saying about anticipating idiots and the standard of driving generally.Living in a rural area with 60mph roads is about right,then we hit the dual carriage way and its 50! I think 80 would be ok if it is policed,not like now where most people are doing close to 80 and generally the cops don't seem that bothered,though I havent driven on a Motorway south of Birmingham for about 10 years so I don't know how the Met police do it.In the dead of night Ive passed a cop car closer to 90 but only car on road plus I was in the inside lane and they haven't bothered unless he was sleeping! The 70mph in the middle lane boys need to be sorted and the generally old gits that drive at 40 on 60mph A roads then drive at the same speed through villages with 30 limits.In residental areas I reckon 30 is a bit much,our road is 20 and the kids can play relatively safely but the odd a hole still goes by at 40.

randy andy

They've already trailed this in Texas and found it made little difference. The average top speed before the trail was 83 point something mph, during the trial it raised by less than 1 mph. I believe they are going to trial an 85 mph limit for a weekend before de deciding what the limit should be.

In reality I don't think this change will make ant difference to motorway driving conditions.

It is an interesting philosophical point though, if we agree that the laws of the land should match the will of the people, then a law that is broken by 49% of the population is clearly not tenable in the long run

tangoflash

Car safety has improved hugely since the 1960s, so an increase in the limit seems logical to me.

But on the other hand, We didn't have mobile phones, stereo's (most didn't), sat navs and all these other toys to distract us when driving.

Overtook a guy a little while back who had a an in-car DVD player on the dash. As he was the only occupant, I'll assume he was watching it.

Addickted

You're only actaully doing about 70 mph when your speedo reads 80mph anyway.

ken from bexley

I agree that some speed limits are just plain stupid (I hate the 50mph restriction from beleyheath) but I think that 70mph is about right.

Absurd bit of road management has made this stretch of road simply dangerous?

Endless speeding beetween the cameras, leading to so many dangerous and poor driving habits.

The Crayford  slip road is a particularly dangerous junction as some motorists slow down because of thelower limit and speed camera at the black prince, while motorists joining accelerate to join the main body of traffic going down hill to the black prince.  I think there have been a number of accidents on here, and I have seen some terrible driving here. I would re-adopt the 70mph here although that would be aspirational as the road is normally  so busy raising  the speed limit to 80mph here would be very difficult to sanction. I think variable speed limits are the way forward, but with adequate warning, and road to adjust to the traffic flow. 

PragueAddick

Since Germany will get talked about a lot in the discussion, I thought I'd tell you what I have learnt about the German autobahns because the truth is a lot more complex than most Brits realise.

Great long stretches of autobahn do have limits. Typically where the area is quite urbanised, and therefore busy, the limit is 75.(mph) You also see this if things get a bit bendy. Every big German city has a ring motorway. The Berlin one, equivalent to the M25, has a permanent limit of 75, dropping to 50 near busy intersections. The inner Berlin motorway is 50 throughout, even though it is mainly three lanes. if you drive around Munich from north to south you will be on a 75 limit for a stretch of more than 60 miles. On top of that some motorways are so busy that you cant hit high speed anyway. I once did most of Frankfurt-Nurnberg without getting above 60mph. But because of the way Germans drive, this doesnt cause tailbacks. A German once said to me "The Czechs dont understand that driving is a team game" By this they mean superb lane discipline - and a good flashing if you don't move over - but very little tailgating. And when there are limits, they generally respect them. And finally, in Bremen county they are about to impose an overall limit, I think it will be 81. 

In Austria there is an overall limit of 100, but great long stretches here are only 62. It happens when the autobahn climbs high into the mountains, and its in place for environmental reasons. Again, every one respects it, and there are no tailbacks or tailgating.

So having experienced all this, I'd say maybe lift it to 80 in the UK, but with far more local restrictions, and definitely dont raise it on the M25. And zero tolerance enforcement, speed cameras everywhere.