I withdraw all previous remarks - I should have paid attention to the original post a bit more closely! Parking 'fines' issued on railway premises by private companies are, as the poster above indicates, so time-consuming for the company issuing the 'fine' that it isn't worth them pursuing you. The law on private parking enforcement is such a ridiculous nonsense that it's probably worth NEVER paying any fines - which is why so many of them clamp you (much easier for them to extract money from you when you're a captive audience)
Be warned though - NEVER do this when the council have issued you with a fine. Local Authorities have dozens of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs just waiting for people to try and waste their time.
Ha ha, Leroy in engage brain before mouth shocker......
Quite right Stone my son is a baliff and he can give you chapter and verse on how a £50 fine if ignored can quite esily escallate to hundreds of pounds and he will also tell you that local authorities NEVER give up why? it's a nice little earner
Quite right Stone my son is a baliff and he can give you chapter and verse on how a £50 fine if ignored can quite esily escallate to hundreds of pounds and he will also tell you that local authorities NEVER give up why? it's a nice little earner
Have now Leroy and apologies you are right of course about Local Authority fines. Around here they have these little Smart cars that take photo's of illegally parked cars but frankly it's geting out of hand there was a case of a guy who stopped for 30 seconds on a double yellow to let his wife out the car and got pinched and the fine was upheld. OK it was a double yellow but this is surely going too far.
Have now Leroy and apologies you are right of course about Local Authority fines. Around here they have these little Smart cars that take photo's of illegally parked cars but frankly it's geting out of hand there was a case of a guy who stopped for 30 seconds on a double yellow to let his wife out the car and got pinched and the fine was upheld. OK it was a double yellow but this is surely going too far.
The really annoying thing about those cars is that they park illegally in order to nab you for parking illegally. My stepdad took a picture of one parked on the double yellows in Sidcup High Street that had been there for a good 20 minutes taking pics of other people parking on double yellows.
Another one was parked up on double yellows at a busy crossroads in Welling in rush hour causing a bleeding traffic jam. I went past on the bus and as it was my stop I hopped off, went over the road and pulled my phone out ready to take a video of him when he decided it was time to go.
My missus got off a ticket issued by a private company from a store car park in Welling. They had issued her one because she overstayed the 1 hour limit. I spoke to a friend of mine who was a Baliff and worked with NoToMob. He explained that a private company looking after car parks can only issue tickets to the person that the car is registered to. That is, the person who's name appears on the V5 form. My wife wrote back to the company and told them it was me (a named driver) driving the car at the time. 1 week later we get a letter saying the matter is no longer being pursued.
Think about it. These firms will issue 50 fines. Out of those 50 only a very small handful will appeal as people see the 'Pay 50% now or 100% in 10 days' as having a result. Those that appeal get off as they're causing these thieving company's more hassle than they can be bothered to deal with.
The annoying thing is these private company's know the laws but ignore them to their advantage.
A private company can only get details from DVLA on the registered keeper so that is the only person they can initially pursue. There is nothing which prevents them pursuing who actually parked if it was not the owner, except they have no right to demand you tell them. Some operators have, I know, tried to get their hooks into the driver, where not the registered owner, if they were given the details by the registered owner, so don't volunteer any information. Private parking fees are largely unenforceable in the Courts, but don't confuse this with enforcement of a judgement obtained by bailiffs because you have not contested the original demand. You must contest it to avoid the bailiff's getting uncontested judgement against you.
I had the same thing happen to me in Gravesend, the difference being it was a local council car park. Wrote to them, enclosing a photo-copy of the ticket (and the one issue by their stormtrooper). I also wrote that if they provided stickers this wouldn't be an issue. I got a reply telling me "on this occassion they would take no further action".
I now have a small peice of blu-tac in my ashtray to prevent this happening again.
CAFCFan: so when is the law changing and does it mean they can claim off the registered owner?
As I understand it the legislation has already been written and has gone through both the Commons and the Lords. It's just waiting to be activated. But I'm expecting early 2012. The good news is that the new legislation will ban clamping on private land (as is the current practice in Scotland). But the bad news and the concession made to the parking control industry is that if the driver cannot be identified then the registered keeper can be charged instead for whatever reasonable amount they want to make up for the breach of contract. No doubt "reasonable" will include a very hefty admin fee! As Dippenhall says at present there is nothing to compel the registered keeper to grass up the driver so without someone to pursue the car park companies are currently powerless to take further action. As others have pointed out with local councils it's a whole different ball game.
I had the same thing happen to me in Gravesend, the difference being it was a local council car park. Wrote to them, enclosing a photo-copy of the ticket (and the one issue by their stormtrooper). I also wrote that if they provided stickers this wouldn't be an issue. I got a reply telling me "on this occassion they would take no further action".
I now have a small peice of blu-tac in my ashtray to prevent this happening again.
Had something similar to this last month, got a Travelcard with a railcard discount but forgot my railcard, then at London Bridge they had filtered the barriers to not accept tickets with railcards, so get asked for it and said that I had one but forogt it, the guy tried giving me a penalty fare which I refused to pay, then he gave me a caution instead and told me I was gonna get a letter and go to court...still nothing and its been 3 weeks, the joys of the loopholes
Pleased to confirm that NCP have cancelled the Penalty notice. Had a chat told them what had happened, lady confirmed that it would be cancelled and that the phone call was recorded. Common sense prevails.
Thanks for the suggestions of how to keep ticket on display, blue tac installed!, Thank you all for your comments
Once had a ticket for allegedly not parking in a designated bay. Wrote to deny and appeal but got nowhere despite no photographic evidence of the alleged offence. Swiftly traced head of public relations via the Internet and an email to his inbox did the trick.
In the past I have found that bypassing all the jobsworths is a more effective way of complaining.
In the past I have found that bypassing all the jobsworths is a more effective way of complaining.
Yep, go straight to the top. When complaining it is always best to make someone at the top sit up and take notice. They don't want to have to deal with this shit so they are far more likely to make it go away by giving you what you want.
Somebody asked when the law was changing. Well the bill has now received royal assent. The relevant legislation is called the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 and it contains a hotchpotch of various bits of legislation. But the relevant Chapter has yet to be enacted. Presumably it is awaiting some form of statutory instrument which will set out in more detail what private car park signage must say to bring it within the ambit of the legislation. The Security Industry Authority's web site is indicating that clamping will be illegal from Ocober 2012, so presumably that's when it will be activated. In a nutshell, the upside is that clamping, towing or otherwise obstructing a vehicle will be prohibited. The downside is that the parking firm will be able to pursue the registered keeper of a vehicle for the parking charge not just the driver as is the position now.
This has happened to me over at Portobello Road, I went and found a traffic warden straight away (They're 2 a penny in that part of London) and showed him I had a pay-and -display ticket covering the time the fine was issued. He was very helpful and said that if I tick the relevant box on the reverse of the fine and send it off with a copy of my ticket it would be okay, and it was.
Even if the ticket was not visible, the fact that you have it and can produce send it to them surely should be sufficient. At least it should be in a fair world, but we live in a world where so many companies are money grabbing crooks who just don't get locked up for their crimes.
Okay, I mentioned the upcoming law change previously. The legislation comes into force with effect from 1st October 2012. That's when clamping and other obstruction of vehicles in private car parks finishes (hooray!) but the ability of parking firms to come after the registered keeper (boo!) starts. Previously the parking contract was with the driver and they didn't know who that was so the penalty charge was unenforceable. BTW the penalty charge has to be "reasonable" so no more extortionate "admin" fees.
I had similar. But I didn't bother appealing after what I had read on cunsumer websites.
So I wrote to them telling them that I was not the driver on the day and therefore I had no contract with them. I went on to tell them that any further correspondance would be reposrted to the Police as harrassment.
They didn't bother contacting me again.
For them to enforce the 'charge' they have to prove in court that they have a contract with you. This is because only councils, and not private companies have the rights to issue genuine parking fines.
If you are clued up they won't waste their time on you.
Okay, I mentioned the upcoming law change previously. The legislation comes into force with effect from 1st October 2012. That's when clamping and other obstruction of vehicles in private car parks finishes (hooray!) but the ability of parking firms to come after the registered keeper (boo!) starts. Previously the parking contract was with the driver and they didn't know who that was so the penalty charge was unenforceable. BTW the penalty charge has to be "reasonable" so no more extortionate "admin" fees.
Do you know what the position will be re harassment of the registered keeper if the car is stolen or used without consent after October 1st?
Okay, I mentioned the upcoming law change previously. The legislation comes into force with effect from 1st October 2012. That's when clamping and other obstruction of vehicles in private car parks finishes (hooray!) but the ability of parking firms to come after the registered keeper (boo!) starts. Previously the parking contract was with the driver and they didn't know who that was so the penalty charge was unenforceable. BTW the penalty charge has to be "reasonable" so no more extortionate "admin" fees.
Do you know what the position will be re harassment of the registered keeper if the car is stolen or used without consent after October 1st?
The short answer is not with any degree of certainty. It's an odd piece of legislation with all sorts of weird stuff in it. It's called The Protection Of Freedom Act 2012 and the relevant bit is here if you want to looklegislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/part/3/chapter/2/enacted (Probably best to avoid the chapter on "disregarding certain convictions for buggery" and stick to the motoring stuff!) Schedule 4 to the Act at Paragraph 4(2)(b) appears to preclude extracting charges from a registered keeper if the vehicle has been stolen while 4(3) appears to put the onus onto the registered keeper to prove that the vehicle was stolen at the time. Perhaps a pre-existing complaint to the police that the vehicle had been stolen might suffice. (Although what happens if your vehicle has been cloned - which does happen - I shudder to think. You would presumably have to demonstrate that your car was elsewhere at the time. )
If you buy a ticket and forget to display it or lose it the law allows a car park operator to find you guilty of an offence of NOT DISPLAYING A TICKET. There is no offence at all of FAILING TO BUY A TICKET. Imagine the outrage if the offence of theft was replaced by an offence of failing to produce a receipt for goods in your possession so you could be arrested outside Tescos and convicted of theft if you couldn't produce a receipt for your shopping.
The powers given to private car park operators to track down individuals is an outragous invasion of privacy. They buy access to data held by the State essentially for raising taxes. This data is regarded a confidential and a policeman was recently convicted for looking up the owner of a vehicle who had a road rage incident with his wife. Talk about double standards.
If someone owed you money and did a runner, try going to the police and asking for details of his car registration and home address - "Sorry sir that's a civil matter". Why is a parking misdemeanor so much more serious it legalises vigilantes.
My suspicion is that the fees for accessing this data is a nice little earner for the Government and they see it as a business partnership with car park operators.
Why don't all car parks collect your money on exit, then there would be no problem with unpaid charges and no need for penalties.
@dippenhall I've got bad news: if you are stopped outside Tescos with a load of shopping and no receipt there's a good chance you will be prosecuted for theft.
@dippenhall I've got bad news: if you are stopped outside Tescos with a load of shopping and no receipt there's a good chance you will be prosecuted for theft.
Especially if the champagne and mobile phones have still got the security tags on!
The whole argument of it being a gross violation of human rights to allow private companies to pursue vehicle registration owners for fines (which it most certainly is), is somewhat tempered by the fact that, as the registered keeper of said vehicle, surely you know exactly who is likely to have been driving when the contravention occured - and can tell them to pay the fine? I've yet to hear a legitimate reason for someone not being able to remember who was driving their car when a traffic infringement has taken place (provided, of course, that the NTO is issued within a reasonable timeframe). Pleading ignorance as to the driver's identity is a legal loophole, nothing more.
Of course, there are problems with this - not the least of which is cloned number plates, which cause all sorts of problems (but which, like identity fraud, are sadly a part of life these days)
I understand people getting upset about the parking cowboys being given powers to chase people for money, but the simple fact is that 99.9% of the time, parking fines are legitimately issued, and for the other 0.1%, there will be a legitimate appeals process. Don't park illegally, and you won't get fined.
Of course, the insiduous creep of privacy erosion is a disgrace - but I'd think people would be more concerned about the fact that this is rife in every facet of life in this country now, yet they appear, in the main, not to give a shit about it.
Leroy said: Of course, the insiduous creep of privacy erosion is a disgrace - but I'd think people would be more concerned about the fact that this is rife in every facet of life in this country now, yet they appear, in the main, not to give a shit about it.
Let's have less of this paranoia Leroy. WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE AND ARE WATCHING YOU!! -)
Comments
Another one was parked up on double yellows at a busy crossroads in Welling in rush hour causing a bleeding traffic jam. I went past on the bus and as it was my stop I hopped off, went over the road and pulled my phone out ready to take a video of him when he decided it was time to go.
Think about it. These firms will issue 50 fines. Out of those 50 only a very small handful will appeal as people see the 'Pay 50% now or 100% in 10 days' as having a result. Those that appeal get off as they're causing these thieving company's more hassle than they can be bothered to deal with.
The annoying thing is these private company's know the laws but ignore them to their advantage.
Private parking fees are largely unenforceable in the Courts, but don't confuse this with enforcement of a judgement obtained by bailiffs because you have not contested the original demand. You must contest it to avoid the bailiff's getting uncontested judgement against you.
I now have a small peice of blu-tac in my ashtray to prevent this happening again.
As Dippenhall says at present there is nothing to compel the registered keeper to grass up the driver so without someone to pursue the car park companies are currently powerless to take further action. As others have pointed out with local councils it's a whole different ball game.
I'm sure they do one for your Porsche small alligator
Thanks for the suggestions of how to keep ticket on display, blue tac installed!, Thank you all for your comments
In the past I have found that bypassing all the jobsworths is a more effective way of complaining.
But the relevant Chapter has yet to be enacted. Presumably it is awaiting some form of statutory instrument which will set out in more detail what private car park signage must say to bring it within the ambit of the legislation.
The Security Industry Authority's web site is indicating that clamping will be illegal from Ocober 2012, so presumably that's when it will be activated.
In a nutshell, the upside is that clamping, towing or otherwise obstructing a vehicle will be prohibited. The downside is that the parking firm will be able to pursue the registered keeper of a vehicle for the parking charge not just the driver as is the position now.
So I wrote to them telling them that I was not the driver on the day and therefore I had no contract with them. I went on to tell them that any further correspondance would be reposrted to the Police as harrassment.
They didn't bother contacting me again.
For them to enforce the 'charge' they have to prove in court that they have a contract with you. This is because only councils, and not private companies have the rights to issue genuine parking fines.
If you are clued up they won't waste their time on you.
(Probably best to avoid the chapter on "disregarding certain convictions for buggery" and stick to the motoring stuff!)
Schedule 4 to the Act at Paragraph 4(2)(b) appears to preclude extracting charges from a registered keeper if the vehicle has been stolen while 4(3) appears to put the onus onto the registered keeper to prove that the vehicle was stolen at the time. Perhaps a pre-existing complaint to the police that the vehicle had been stolen might suffice. (Although what happens if your vehicle has been cloned - which does happen - I shudder to think. You would presumably have to demonstrate that your car was elsewhere at the time. )
The powers given to private car park operators to track down individuals is an outragous invasion of privacy. They buy access to data held by the State essentially for raising taxes. This data is regarded a confidential and a policeman was recently convicted for looking up the owner of a vehicle who had a road rage incident with his wife. Talk about double standards.
If someone owed you money and did a runner, try going to the police and asking for details of his car registration and home address - "Sorry sir that's a civil matter". Why is a parking misdemeanor so much more serious it legalises vigilantes.
My suspicion is that the fees for accessing this data is a nice little earner for the Government and they see it as a business partnership with car park operators.
Why don't all car parks collect your money on exit, then there would be no problem with unpaid charges and no need for penalties.
End of rant.
Of course, there are problems with this - not the least of which is cloned number plates, which cause all sorts of problems (but which, like identity fraud, are sadly a part of life these days)
I understand people getting upset about the parking cowboys being given powers to chase people for money, but the simple fact is that 99.9% of the time, parking fines are legitimately issued, and for the other 0.1%, there will be a legitimate appeals process. Don't park illegally, and you won't get fined.
Of course, the insiduous creep of privacy erosion is a disgrace - but I'd think people would be more concerned about the fact that this is rife in every facet of life in this country now, yet they appear, in the main, not to give a shit about it.
Let's have less of this paranoia Leroy. WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE AND ARE WATCHING YOU!! -)