Sour Grapes

Powell Is Pleasant

I'm sorry to do this, because I think it will make me sound like a bit of a jerk. But I want to clear up the use of the term 'sour grapes'.
In the fable of The Fox & The Grapes, the fox is trying to get some grapes, but they are too high for him to reach. Thus, he sulks off saying "It doesn't matter, the grapes were probably sour anyway." So when somebody displays 'sour grapes', it ought to be that they are trying to diminish the value of what they cannot have. They are not simply being sore losers.

For example, when fans of a Sheffield club come on and say "Your team are rubbish, you only won because you cheated, we should have had the 3 points, blah blah blah", that is being a bad loser, by all accounts. It is not, however, a display of sour grapes. Sour grapes would be if they said something like "Only jerks get 3 points for winning" or "We didn't want to win the league anyway".

Likewise, me starting this thread may well be a pointless display of pedantry, but it isn't sour grapes over the use of the expression.

stonemuse

Interesting ... But as you say ... pedantic ;-)

Talal

It must've really irritated you to post that! But you learn something new everyday...

Macronate

i'd be more worried about your use of the word "jerk"

Karim_myBagheri

definition's of expressions and words change all the time. and often through miss use of the original word/expression.

Powell Is Pleasant

They do. And this one annoys me. Because without a fable to back it up, it's a nonsense expression.

AFKABartram

I thought The Fox and Grapes was a boozer !

Guidthesquid

Where the hell has "stonewall penalty" come from?
No one said it last season........I think its a rubbish phrase.

Oggy Red

I love threads like this. Naval gazing at it's best!

Stig

PIP - you are absolutely right if you take a narrow view of the proverb. But I think you can justifiably take a wider interpretation of it to say the fox was just grumbling because he did achieve his goal. The precise nature of the grumble isn't that important.

In the same way, losing fans will grumble (sometimes seriously, sometimes lightheartedly) about stuff. Usually those grumbles are about the other team or the ref because it doesn't make sense to knock the competition itself. Unless it's, "FA Cup, who gives..."

Lincsaddick

as Powell is Pleasant writes: sour grapes = cognitive disonance ... according to my long ago taken OU D101 module .. but let's face it, sour grapes is a much nicer phrase than cognitive disonance.

Stig

Isn't sour grapes what you display when you've experienced cognitive dissonance?

better red than dead

"Oggy Red
I love threads like this. Naval gazing at it's best! "

Why bring up watching ships? That has nothing to do with cognitive dis.sonance

Sensei

The fight is never about grapes or lettuce. It is always about people.

LoOkOuT

Now that that is out of the way, can you explain The Fox and the Firkin?

dylanthedog

he sulks off saying "It doesn't matter, the grapes were probably sour anyway." So when somebody displays 'sour grapes', it ought to be that they are trying to diminish the value of what they cannot have. They are not simply being sore losers.

- when fans of a Sheffield club come on and say "Your team are rubbish, you only won because you cheated, we should have had the 3 points they are trying to diminish the value of our celebrations/ and our win.

So it is sour grapes. Same thing innit?

nth_london_addick

Shit man this is deep let me get my skunk weed and look at the stars don't go away I will be back when I have worked out what comes after space , I mean it has to end it can't go on forever

Lincsaddick

so long ago that I have forgotten how to spell disonance/dissonance .. but who cares .. i didn't want to discuss the matter anyway

better red than dead

"LoOkOuT
Now that that is out of the way, can you explain The Fox and the Firkin? "

Firkin is a size of barrel. It is the suffix used a chain of micro-breweries created by, I think, some guy called Bruce. This chain of pubs brewed Beer on the premises. The first one was called the Goose and Firkin and was in Southwark. This was a great pub with good beer and lunchtime rolls that could keep the pub bores quite for half an hour while they munched their way though them. This is not a fable.

Sensei

The vine bears three kinds of grapes: the first of pleasure, the second of intoxication, the third of disgust.

tangoflash

Well, as they couldn't get the 3 points, it could be sour grapes by your logic after all......................

Florida_Addick

your missing the point, the Fox is clearly, how should i say it...a Wanker?

tangoflash

your missing the point, the Fox is clearly, how should i say it...a Wanker?

And his name is Stevie Claridge.......................

Kap10

Please can we make this members only so as few non charlton fans see it as possible ;-)

LonelyNorthernAddick

Well surely the Sheffield clubs are just trying to diminish the importance of the points we took off them then? i mean, if we're so lucky, we're going to get no points for the rest of the season to even out our good luck with bad and will end up in the relegation zone.

Ted\'s Addicksson

Mmmm, don't make a drama out of a molehill...

RedMist

So do you take the fox across first, leaving the chicken and the grain, or take the grain across...

DRF

Whilst I agree with the origin of the pharse I disagree with your interpretation of it.
If they said, 'well done you played better than us and deserves the win', that is acceptance.
To say 'You only won because you cheated' is an attempt to dimish the value of the win, implying that winning by cheating is somehow less than winning by merit and in turn they would themselves rather have lost (or not eaten the grapes) than won how we did (eaten grapes that are sour).
Therfore - clearly - sour grapes.

Powell Is Pleasant

I admit that I gave a bad example of non-sour grape bad-losery.

And Stig, I stick by my taking a narrow view of the fable - there are well over 100 of them, so surely there's got to be one for each specific way that someone can be a jerk... right?

RedArmySE7

I had sour grapes once, I was on the pan for days as a result.

Scoham

Not sure where foxes come into it? The owl tried to fly up to get the grapes, while the blade attempted to cut the tree down.

They hadn't realised the haddock had already knocked the grapes out the tree into the river before swimming off with them...