I'll let you in on two little secrets. (1) You can afford to miss a week's worth of Ancient Egypt and Huckleberry Finn - It really isn't going to mess you up for life.
(2) Very little of secondary education is acculumative in the sense that, if you miss one module, you will be lost on the next. A levels and degree - Certainly. GCSE? Never. Years 7, 8 & 9? Not in a million bloody years.
No real proof but I remember kids falling behind when I was at school after an absence (more illness than holiday) and they never caught up. It was hard enough to keep up with attending all lessons I wouldn't have wanted to miss a couple of weeks.
1) How can you be sure when you book the holiday that it will be Egypt and Finn that week?
2) I did 'O' Levels opposed to GCSEs and they all followed a structured path. You can't pick up advanced maths if you miss the basics. Also you'll have to forgive me as I don't understand the new fangled years system so I have no idea what years 7, 8 and 9 are in old money.
I'll let you in on two little secrets. (1) You can afford to miss a week's worth of Ancient Egypt and Huckleberry Finn - It really isn't going to mess you up for life.
(2) Very little of secondary education is acculumative in the sense that, if you miss one module, you will be lost on the next. A levels and degree - Certainly. GCSE? Never. Years 7, 8 & 9? Not in a million bloody years.
No real proof but I remember kids falling behind when I was at school after an absence (more illness than holiday) and they never caught up. It was hard enough to keep up with attending all lessons I wouldn't have wanted to miss a couple of weeks.
1) How can you be sure when you book the holiday that it will be Egypt and Finn that week?
2) I did 'O' Levels opposed to GCSEs and they all followed a structured path. You can't pick up advanced maths if you miss the basics. Also you'll have to forgive me as I don't understand the new fangled years system so I have no idea what years 7, 8 and 9 are in old money.
Year 7 is your first year at secondary school. 8 is your second and so on. You do your SATs in Year 9, and your GCSEs in 10 & 11.
If you think they're teaching "advanced maths" at GCSE then you're way behind the times my friend.
As for Finn and Egypt, you don't know for sure but you can certainly find out (and in years 7, 8 and 9 it's going to be something of similar 'importance'). But here's an idea. Take your child on that family holiday and support him as much as you can to '''catch up''' when you get back. Let him know that relaxing and taking a holiday is the reward of working hard.
Don't make 'hard work' a punishment of 'working hard'. It leads to little children growing up to be full-on miserable adults. The kinds who have beds in their offices and can never seem to enjoy themselves.
But why is this being attributed to the riots last year? The girl charged for rioting in Charlton was very well educated and who knows if she had been playing truant, she still achieved her results.
The piece about 64,000 children missing school, was is that as a percentage of the children that didn't miss school?
I have sympathies with both sides of the argument here; generally I don't like the thought of kids missing school, but at the same time I think that families do get shafted by the tourism industry and I think that taking holidays can be beneficial. We shouldn't, therefore, be too prescriptive as in most cases parents will make the best decisions with their kids interests' at heart.
One thing that concerns me in this discussion is the way that place names are quoted as if you can judge the educational impact of a holiday by where it is. Benidorm and Orlando = bad ; Asia and Australia = good. Frankly, a lot of this comes down to snobbery and making pre-judgments. Just because someone is going on a package tour to Spain, does not mean that they will necessarily spend all day on the beach doing nothing much. There's loads of opportunities on such a holiday to engage kids in ways that will enhance their education. If this is the mindset that head teachers have (I'm not saying it is) then working class families are likely to penalised further whilst families who can afford to go on trips to more exotic places get away with what they like.
I have sympathies with both sides of the argument here; generally I don't like the thought of kids missing school, but at the same time I think that families do get shafted by the tourism industry and I think that taking holidays can be beneficial. We shouldn't, therefore, be too prescriptive as in most cases parents will make the best decisions with their kids interests' at heart.
One thing that concerns me in this discussion is the way that place names are quoted as if you can judge the educational impact of a holiday by where it is. Benidorm and Orlando = bad ; Asia and Australia = good. Frankly, a lot of this comes down to snobbery and making pre-judgments. Just because someone is going on a package tour to Spain, does not mean that they will necessarily spend all day on the beach doing nothing much. There's loads of opportunities on such a holiday to engage kids in ways that will enhance their education. If this is the mindset that head teachers have (I'm not saying it is) then working class families are likely to penalised further whilst families who can afford to go on trips to more exotic places get away with what they like.
Now, that is an excellent and very thought provoking post.
I don't have kids and I never missed any school for holidays so I can't really weigh in on the personal side of it, but I don't think Gove can really be knocked for producing this policy. It's a prime example of populist government - you have to be seen to be doing something regularly, because if you don't, when it comes to those big childish arguments that pass for debates the person who slings the most mud is the one who wins. The challenger who can say 'Michael Gove did nothing in his job' will be the ones who 'wins' the debate regardless of whether or not he actually did do a lot, albeit a lot of low key changes. I imagine this policy will be enforced about as heavily as on the spot litter fines. It'll be discretionary and rarely used I imagine, but it's there pretty much to keep the more vocal moaners in society happy. It's the same with the future laws on striking your children - there's absolutely no need for there to be legislation on it but it's in place to wag an imaginary finger and satisfy people's need for 'SOMETHING IS HAPPENING!' government. I'm not really concerned by the change, I just despair of the fact it's considered necessary so that there's ammo in the cannons for the next farcical cat fight
I have two kids 10 and 15 and never take them out of school. i take them on holiday usually twice a year and usually for two weeks in the summer holidays. We tend to stay with my partner's family in Sweden, so its a free venue and flights work out about £100 each return in july/august. Hire car is £200. Usually we get through about £1000+ for the whole trip etc which is about all we can afford. My ex spent £8000 taking them to Disney for two weeks in the October hols 2 years ago, now that is expensive. My kids do complain that i don't take them on 'big' foreign holidays, but finances are the key factor. It actually made me quite angry when i went on holiday last october (during term time without the kids) to see so many families going off on holiday with teenage children. I agree with the fines and think they should be higher, but think that they should go directly to the school and maybe should only apply to children over 12 etc. Taking children out of school during term-time sends the wrong message to them.
My boy missed school for local elections, national elections, strikes, inset days, faulty heating, bad weather etc ete What is Gove going to do about them?? I work bloody hard and my kids go on hoilday when I can get time off and also when its chaep enough for us to go. The only time we wouldn't go is in the build-up too and taking of exams.
Luckily for me my parenting days are far behind me, I am now in a position where I try to employ youngster coming directly out of school. I would be amazed if this new policy would have the effect that I as an employer is looking for, that is for well educated, articulate and numerate young adults to be presented to potential employers, with well written CV's etc. My business employ highly skilled engineers, these are trained over a 5 to 7 year period, which includes going attending further education for at least 1 day per week, then the training continues for the rest of there working life, training an engineer cost a small company like mine many 10's of thousands of pounds. As we need to invest for training it is inappropriate for us to take on people who have gone onto further eduction, as we need them to enter training around the ages of 16 to 18 so they can undertake a 5 year apprenticeship.
Unfortunately the quality of the young people being presented to my company is terrible, they can barely write their own name, let alone fill in a time sheet, to hold a conversation is impossible, and as for basic Maths well enough said. I find it utterly amazing that people rely so heavily on computers to undertake basic, why aren't they taught basic skills such as what was called mental arithmetic you need this for when you are working on your own late at night on machinery costing many millions of pounds the younger engineer cannot add up a few numbers without the aid of some type of a computer, otherwise he will insert the incorrect settings. We are now discussing issuing IPads or similar because clients and our office staff cannot read the writing or even understand what they have put down, these vital documents are what we get paid against and also what the engineers get signed to prove the hours stated so they can get there overtime. You ask them to help out in a breakdown situation, all you get is excuses why they can't work on etc, this mean that senior engineers then have to be transferred to undertake their work, whilst they go off home, there whole work attitude stinks.
I could go on for many pages listing the failings of the educational systems of the this country from an employers perpective but what's the point I work in engineering, I try to employee young people, therefore my views are of no consequence to anyone in the educational field, as we our opinion do not count. We have spoken many times trying to make the educational system understand our requirements, do they listen of course not, they know better.
I don't know how you overcome what I state above, but what I can say is that what the teachers, schools, educational authorities, government are providing to mt industry at the moment is not correct, I feel very sorry for this generation of students, as they have been terrible let down by all the aforementioned people, I hope you are all ashamed of yourselves.
It is now up to people like me, to try to correct your errors and hopefully produce some good engineers who will for the people with the correct attitude and abilities go on and eventually earn in excess of £65k per year, yes that right, that's how much you can earn being a first class engineer, but I not only have to pay my taxes to educate you up to the age of say 17, I also have to re-educate you using my own companies money to get you to a standard where you can then earn this sum.
Students can't afford to miss any time off school - simple as that. Everything is planned out on the basis of continuous study. Those who think it is ok to take children out of school in Primary and not in Secondary have got it wrong. It is the years 3-6 where the skills for future use are laid down - the content of Secondary can in parts be caught up, but skills are not so easy. Keep the students in school. If you want the streets clear of the jobless youth then the culture of truancy must be changed.
I think a week off for kids who are well behaved/work to their potential etc... could turn it into a positive so that families can encourage their children to achieve and be good pupils. Sad that they would need such an incentive but many take no interest in their child's education and this might force them to.
The improved attitude would more than compensate for the time lost.
I cannot take a summer holiday due to this being my busiest time at work, so what do I do deprive my children of a holiday or take them out during term time. If I took time off during the summer holidays it would be the equivalent workwise of a teacher taking 2 weeks off on the first day of a new school year.
I have taken them out everyyear. This is the first time the school has ever contacted me, they said they new my work situation, and although they couldn't authorise it they were relaxed about it as my children have good attendance records.
If they do in future enforce this, then as a family we wouldn't have a holiday. I do not have 4/5/6 weeks a year off, I have a 10 day family holiday and then have a odd day off, probably amounting to 15 days a year.
I have sympathies with both sides of the argument here; generally I don't like the thought of kids missing school, but at the same time I think that families do get shafted by the tourism industry and I think that taking holidays can be beneficial. We shouldn't, therefore, be too prescriptive as in most cases parents will make the best decisions with their kids interests' at heart.
One thing that concerns me in this discussion is the way that place names are quoted as if you can judge the educational impact of a holiday by where it is. Benidorm and Orlando = bad ; Asia and Australia = good. Frankly, a lot of this comes down to snobbery and making pre-judgments. Just because someone is going on a package tour to Spain, does not mean that they will necessarily spend all day on the beach doing nothing much. There's loads of opportunities on such a holiday to engage kids in ways that will enhance their education. If this is the mindset that head teachers have (I'm not saying it is) then working class families are likely to penalised further whilst families who can afford to go on trips to more exotic places get away with what they like.
A couple of years ago, we went to Sorrento, for a family wedding, the last 2/3 weeks my youngest has been learning about Pompeii and Vesuvius, she's got a real interest in this as she has actually been there and is every night looking for things that we brought back with us and telling me and the wife even more stuff about our trip, and that holiday was in term time
I remember the days when you could take a holday in term time; you spoke to your teachers beforehand to let them know, a friend would collect the work for you, when you got back you'd catch up. Simple.
It must just affect thick kids because they are too dim to arrange the above.
With the way the UK education system is at the moment I reckon you could learn as much on a 2 week holiday in Spain as you could during 2 weeks at school.
I totally support the Government on this and would never take my girl out of school unless absolutely necessary (she is 5).
I just wish they would clamp down as hard on the teachers, my daughters teacher had 2 days off for a wedding last year.
It means that we probably wont have a proper holiday this year as looked at the June week and its was £2200+ for a basic week in Majorca for us and £1400 the week after, hopefully the Government will do something about that as well.
What next? The kids not allowed to have operations during the term time as they may miss out on school? As Sparrows says, let them catch up, they're only at school for 7 hours a day or so and seem to have plenty of time to spend playing computer games!
A week out of school does no harm in the long run. It is easy to catch up.
As parents you are responsible for all things relating to your child and this is just another one . It is your own judgement call, just as it is for sometyhing like their diet. Are fat kids parents being fined ?
Are the parents of kids who spend all night in front of the TV being fined?
Kids who play rated 15 ganmes on their consoles when aged 12 - are their parents being fined?
I remember the days when you could take a holday in term time; you spoke to your teachers beforehand to let them know, a friend would collect the work for you, when you got back you'd catch up. Simple.
It must just affect thick kids because they are too dim to arrange the above.
I remember the days when you could take a holday in term time; you spoke to your teachers beforehand to let them know, a friend would collect the work for you, when you got back you'd catch up. Simple.
It must just affect thick kids because they are too dim to arrange the above.
This......
There's a world of difference between a family taking their one holiday a year and another well off family who take their kids out of school for skiing holidays, summer holiday and their country retreat holiday.
Think this punishes too many families who generally play by the rules but simply can't afford a good family holiday in school holidays.
The problems are parents who don't care about their kids education and remove them from school regualrly, or let them have days off if they complain of a headache, or turn a blind eye to their kids skipping lessons, or out all evening or on a computer rather than doing homework etc.
It's parents that need educating & their view & culture changed, not using a stick to hurt decent familes more.
It's a remedy that doesn't solve anything; parents who don't care will still have kids who truant and don't pay attention at school.
A week out of school does no harm in the long run. It is easy to catch up.
As parents you are responsible for all things relating to your child and this is just another one . It is your own judgement call, just as it is for sometyhing like their diet. Are fat kids parents being fined ?
Are the parents of kids who spend all night in front of the TV being fined?
Kids who play rated 15 ganmes on their consoles when aged 12 - are their parents being fined?
Except the implications of your list are between parent and child - the implications of the deliberate removal of a child from education affect the school, teachers, other students, so its completely different.
I'll say again, many posters on here seem to be missing the point.
Yes, taking little Jimmy out when he is 8 years old to see his nan for a week isnt going to affect his A level results. But the problem is so much bigger than that. There is also the widespread attitude that parents know better than teachers - GCSE students being taken away a couple of weeks before their mock or final exams is very common - parents not even aware of what these exams mean for their children. (This attitude also pervades where parents side with their children in behaviour issues - the school is always wrong and the child is an angel who has never done wrong.)
The effect on other students in a class where one or two pupils are known to bein Lanzarote for the last two weeks of term shouldnt be ignored Parents tend to take kids out at the end of term - when assessments are made and creating 4+ weeks holiday for the children. Presumably on return from their cheaper holiday the parents go back to work, leaving the children at home alone for the rest of the official school break. The attitude is one of trivialising education which then permeates the children and classmates, which can only be a bad thing.
Southend - you're not serious? Clamp down on teachers? Utterly different scale, its ridiculous to compare the two. Teachers have to pay top whack for their holidays too - they dont swan off as special cases. 2 days off for a (family, I'm positive, otherwise the Head would not authorise it) wedding for one teacher who no doubt left cover work and whose classes were covered by other teachers hardly compares to the widespread removal of children whose parents all belive they are a special case, does it?
(Though truancy is a different issue - that is absence unauthorised by parents. There have long been fines for the parents of children found wandering shopping centres during school time.)
I think a week off for kids who are well behaved/work to their potential etc... could turn it into a positive so that families can encourage their children to achieve and be good pupils. Sad that they would need such an incentive but many take no interest in their child's education and this might force them to.
The improved attitude would more than compensate for the time lost.
Not a bad idea actually. Personally I don't agree with taking kids out of school during termtime but I can also see why some parents feel they have to just because of the exorbitant cost of holidays outside of term time. Linking permission to take children out of school to performance in the classroom might just be an incentive to both children and parents.
Mind you, I also agree with King's Hill Addick. Holidays are a luxury, not a necessity. If you can't afford a holiday outside of term time then you are not forced to take one during term time. I didn't go on a foreign holiday until I was 14 as we simply didn't have the money. We made do with camping trips in the UK in the summer holidays. Not the end of the world.
As far as the schools go it is all about the money, nice little earner for them!
If it's not why do schools go on ski trips outside of school holidays when they charge the kids over the odds?
Dear lord - nice little earner? What do you think happens to any fine revenue? Also ski trips are generally not educational, so teachers cant be taken out of lessons. That is why they (usually) take place in the holidays - like the one where a school bus crashed in half term. They are expensive for the reasons we are discussing, plus there needs to be a (legally binding) teacher pupil ratio!
There's an awful lot of generalisations being made on here about peoples circumstances, which is why it should just be left to the teaching staff to take each case individually.
Sorry to say I believe that those who believe a holidya is more important than education, is just one indication of wht is wrong with society today. As a child of the sixties and seventies my family did not go on a holiday every year I spent many summers at home. If it took two or 3 years to save up for a summer holidy then that is what you did. Making sure that the kids went to school was seen as the social normt hen, parents that did not where often seen as poor parents and the type of family to keep clear off. Holidays are not a human wright they are a priveledge.
I don't care what parents do about their kids education. What does depress me is that so many people seem prepared to take children off to sunny climes at the very stage of their life when they are precisely most susceptible to the effects of the sun on young skin. It happened to me and I now suffer from skin cancer but there was no information available back in the day - now there's no excuse. Parents who take young kids of to Spain, etc should all hang their heads in shame.
Comments
1) How can you be sure when you book the holiday that it will be Egypt and Finn that week?
2) I did 'O' Levels opposed to GCSEs and they all followed a structured path. You can't pick up advanced maths if you miss the basics. Also you'll have to forgive me as I don't understand the new fangled years system so I have no idea what years 7, 8 and 9 are in old money.
If you think they're teaching "advanced maths" at GCSE then you're way behind the times my friend.
As for Finn and Egypt, you don't know for sure but you can certainly find out (and in years 7, 8 and 9 it's going to be something of similar 'importance'). But here's an idea. Take your child on that family holiday and support him as much as you can to '''catch up''' when you get back. Let him know that relaxing and taking a holiday is the reward of working hard.
Don't make 'hard work' a punishment of 'working hard'. It leads to little children growing up to be full-on miserable adults. The kinds who have beds in their offices and can never seem to enjoy themselves.
The girl charged for rioting in Charlton was very well educated and who knows if she had been playing truant, she still achieved her results.
The piece about 64,000 children missing school, was is that as a percentage of the children that didn't miss school?
One thing that concerns me in this discussion is the way that place names are quoted as if you can judge the educational impact of a holiday by where it is. Benidorm and Orlando = bad ; Asia and Australia = good. Frankly, a lot of this comes down to snobbery and making pre-judgments. Just because someone is going on a package tour to Spain, does not mean that they will necessarily spend all day on the beach doing nothing much. There's loads of opportunities on such a holiday to engage kids in ways that will enhance their education. If this is the mindset that head teachers have (I'm not saying it is) then working class families are likely to penalised further whilst families who can afford to go on trips to more exotic places get away with what they like.
I work bloody hard and my kids go on hoilday when I can get time off and also when its chaep enough for us to go. The only time we wouldn't go is in the build-up too and taking of exams.
Unfortunately the quality of the young people being presented to my company is terrible, they can barely write their own name, let alone fill in a time sheet, to hold a conversation is impossible, and as for basic Maths well enough said. I find it utterly amazing that people rely so heavily on computers to undertake basic, why aren't they taught basic skills such as what was called mental arithmetic you need this for when you are working on your own late at night on machinery costing many millions of pounds the younger engineer cannot add up a few numbers without the aid of some type of a computer, otherwise he will insert the incorrect settings. We are now discussing issuing IPads or similar because clients and our office staff cannot read the writing or even understand what they have put down, these vital documents are what we get paid against and also what the engineers get signed to prove the hours stated so they can get there overtime. You ask them to help out in a breakdown situation, all you get is excuses why they can't work on etc, this mean that senior engineers then have to be transferred to undertake their work, whilst they go off home, there whole work attitude stinks.
I could go on for many pages listing the failings of the educational systems of the this country from an employers perpective but what's the point I work in engineering, I try to employee young people, therefore my views are of no consequence to anyone in the educational field, as we our opinion do not count. We have spoken many times trying to make the educational system understand our requirements, do they listen of course not, they know better.
I don't know how you overcome what I state above, but what I can say is that what the teachers, schools, educational authorities, government are providing to mt industry at the moment is not correct, I feel very sorry for this generation of students, as they have been terrible let down by all the aforementioned people, I hope you are all ashamed of yourselves.
It is now up to people like me, to try to correct your errors and hopefully produce some good engineers who will for the people with the correct attitude and abilities go on and eventually earn in excess of £65k per year, yes that right, that's how much you can earn being a first class engineer, but I not only have to pay my taxes to educate you up to the age of say 17, I also have to re-educate you using my own companies money to get you to a standard where you can then earn this sum.
The improved attitude would more than compensate for the time lost.
I have taken them out everyyear. This is the first time the school has ever contacted me, they said they new my work situation, and although they couldn't authorise it they were relaxed about it as my children have good attendance records.
If they do in future enforce this, then as a family we wouldn't have a holiday. I do not have 4/5/6 weeks a year off, I have a 10 day family holiday and then have a odd day off, probably amounting to 15 days a year.
It must just affect thick kids because they are too dim to arrange the above.
If it's not why do schools go on ski trips outside of school holidays when they charge the kids over the odds?
I just wish they would clamp down as hard on the teachers, my daughters teacher had 2 days off for a wedding last year.
It means that we probably wont have a proper holiday this year as looked at the June week and its was £2200+ for a basic week in Majorca for us and £1400 the week after, hopefully the Government will do something about that as well.
As parents you are responsible for all things relating to your child and this is just another one
.
It is your own judgement call, just as it is for sometyhing like their diet.
Are fat kids parents being fined ?
Are the parents of kids who spend all night in front of the TV being fined?
Kids who play rated 15 ganmes on their consoles when aged 12 - are their parents being fined?
Think this punishes too many families who generally play by the rules but simply can't afford a good family holiday in school holidays.
The problems are parents who don't care about their kids education and remove them from school regualrly, or let them have days off if they complain of a headache, or turn a blind eye to their kids skipping lessons, or out all evening or on a computer rather than doing homework etc.
It's parents that need educating & their view & culture changed, not using a stick to hurt decent familes more.
It's a remedy that doesn't solve anything; parents who don't care will still have kids who truant and don't pay attention at school.
I'll say again, many posters on here seem to be missing the point.
Yes, taking little Jimmy out when he is 8 years old to see his nan for a week isnt going to affect his A level results. But the problem is so much bigger than that. There is also the widespread attitude that parents know better than teachers - GCSE students being taken away a couple of weeks before their mock or final exams is very common - parents not even aware of what these exams mean for their children. (This attitude also pervades where parents side with their children in behaviour issues - the school is always wrong and the child is an angel who has never done wrong.)
The effect on other students in a class where one or two pupils are known to bein Lanzarote for the last two weeks of term shouldnt be ignored
Parents tend to take kids out at the end of term - when assessments are made and creating 4+ weeks holiday for the children. Presumably on return from their cheaper holiday the parents go back to work, leaving the children at home alone for the rest of the official school break. The attitude is one of trivialising education which then permeates the children and classmates, which can only be a bad thing.
Southend - you're not serious? Clamp down on teachers? Utterly different scale, its ridiculous to compare the two. Teachers have to pay top whack for their holidays too - they dont swan off as special cases.
2 days off for a (family, I'm positive, otherwise the Head would not authorise it) wedding for one teacher who no doubt left cover work and whose classes were covered by other teachers hardly compares to the widespread removal of children whose parents all belive they are a special case, does it?
(Though truancy is a different issue - that is absence unauthorised by parents. There have long been fines for the parents of children found wandering shopping centres during school time.)
Mind you, I also agree with King's Hill Addick. Holidays are a luxury, not a necessity. If you can't afford a holiday outside of term time then you are not forced to take one during term time. I didn't go on a foreign holiday until I was 14 as we simply didn't have the money. We made do with camping trips in the UK in the summer holidays. Not the end of the world.
Also ski trips are generally not educational, so teachers cant be taken out of lessons. That is why they (usually) take place in the holidays - like the one where a school bus crashed in half term.
They are expensive for the reasons we are discussing, plus there needs to be a (legally binding) teacher pupil ratio!
If it took two or 3 years to save up for a summer holidy then that is what you did.
Making sure that the kids went to school was seen as the social normt hen, parents that did not where often seen as poor parents and the type of family to keep clear off.
Holidays are not a human wright they are a priveledge.