not sure where to start ...firstly perhaps the locals being told whats good for them ie redevelopment ,the closeness of the community (people were referred as being out of a certain street ,not an area).The ways of the locals my mum s family all come from deptford,figures of speech etc,my grandparents would be shocked to see whats there now .My nan always used to describe going to deptford market as "going up the top" a very sentimental programme .Not sure if it was right to put the old town planner on the spot as the worst of his kind are all now dead .Not sure if deptford high st is now really worth keeping the locals deserve better ..looking fwd to the programme about camberwell grove next week
Was very interesting bit where a dwelling that was classed as a slum was now being offered at £750k, with photographs of how it was being compared to now, showing that nothing had structually changed! Surprised the former counceller/town planner agreed to do the program - didn't come out of it well at all.
Unfortunately, the sad example of Deptford was repeated countrywide by the zealous followers of Le Corbusier. What did they care for history, community and sense of place? They had a brave new world to make and anyone that didn't agree was living in the past....couldn't those poor uneducated little folk see that they didn't know what they wanted or what was best for them?
The 'town planners' who committed this vandalism just so they could peer down at cardboard dioramas in their offices with a sense of power and that they were shaping the future are one of the biggest traitors to ever have been foisted on the people of this country. Utter, utter scum. There are thousands of examples, but one from up here in the north typifies it. Preston town hall was a magnificent building, considered the finest example of gothic architecture in the whole of the north of England. 'Mysteriously' it was damaged by fire in 1947 - but not gutted. However, it just so happened that the planners had a nest of schemes to create the 'city of the future' (complete with high rise concrete and connected by underpasses that now stink of piss and that nobody will use for fear of being mugged) and they knocked it down, used the remains (including exquisite carvings, gargoyles etc) as hardcore to shore up the banks of the nearby river (some of the carvings were actually rescued by farmers who thought it criminal that they were being buried never to be seen again - they were recently displayed in a museum exhibition about the whole sorry event). In their wisdom, they replaced it with a hideous modern high rise office block (which looked jarringly out of place in a medieval town square enclosed by old buildings), that was consistently voted the most hated building in the city (despite some stiff competition from their other projects). After this they then presumably thought they could get away with anything and then destroyed the majority of the historic town centre and replaced it with the same modernist concrete crap which the council is now trying to demolish and rebuild in order to escape the legacy that is the bleak, concrete Stalinist/communist utilitarian look that continues to blight our towns and cities throughout the land.
One of the things that continues to befuddle and depress me about this country is that despite having history all around us, we value it so little as to let ideologues and idiots destroy it with barely a whimper. The same way history was rewritten with perceived boundary changes in 1974 to the frankly unbelievable story of the Euston Arch, we simply don't cherish what we have until it's gone.
Have recorded the programme, remember in 50s and 60s my grandparents ran a butchers shop in Evelyn Street and another by New Cross Station, I often worked in them, just lucky that my foster family were Charlton supporters.
Just Google the Euston Arch, had never heard of it. Quite an impressive entrance to Euston that once was, far better than what they replaced it with! Why we do away with these things I truly don't know.
It seems just 5 minutes down the road they've restored St Pancras to how it should be and Kings Cross will have rid of that awful corrugated type metal front facade.
I think the planners did what they did because they had a vision. The only problem was it was a flawed and arrogant one. The point was made that their were similar properties in other parts of London that were left untouched, which hinted that this was a social engineering experiment/enterprise involving the working class.
Because you more affluent and you have different priorities and values, it is arrogant to assume your values are right. These planners didn't understand the sense of family or community and thought that if you gave people a modern kitchen and a nice bathroom they would be happy!
Unfortunately, the sad example of Deptford was repeated countrywide by the zealous followers of Le Corbusier. What did they care for history, community and sense of place? They had a brave new world to make and anyone that didn't agree was living in the past....couldn't those poor uneducated little folk see that they didn't know what they wanted or what was best for them?
The 'town planners' who committed this vandalism just so they could peer down at cardboard dioramas in their offices with a sense of power and that they were shaping the future are one of the biggest traitors to ever have been foisted on the people of this country. Utter, utter scum. There are thousands of examples, but one from up here in the north typifies it. Preston town hall was a magnificent building, considered the finest example of gothic architecture in the whole of the north of England. 'Mysteriously' it was damaged by fire in 1947 - but not gutted. However, it just so happened that the planners had a nest of schemes to create the 'city of the future' (complete with high rise concrete and connected by underpasses that now stink of piss and that nobody will use for fear of being mugged) and they knocked it down, used the remains (including exquisite carvings, gargoyles etc) as hardcore to shore up the banks of the nearby river (some of the carvings were actually rescued by farmers who thought it criminal that they were being buried never to be seen again - they were recently displayed in a museum exhibition about the whole sorry event). In their wisdom, they replaced it with a hideous modern high rise office block (which looked jarringly out of place in a medieval town square enclosed by old buildings), that was consistently voted the most hated building in the city (despite some stiff competition from their other projects). After this they then presumably thought they could get away with anything and then destroyed the majority of the historic town centre and replaced it with the same modernist concrete crap which the council is now trying to demolish and rebuild in order to escape the legacy that is the bleak, concrete Stalinist/communist utilitarian look that continues to blight our towns and cities throughout the land.
One of the things that continues to befuddle and depress me about this country is that despite having history all around us, we value it so little as to let ideologues and idiots destroy it with barely a whimper. The same way history was rewritten with perceived boundary changes in 1974 to the frankly unbelievable story of the Euston Arch, we simply don't cherish what we have until it's gone.
super post BS .. of course the counter to this is the remedying of the dreadful slum conditions that were to be found in Dickens' time. The problem it seems to me is that 'planners'and politicians just do not know when to stop .. they go from making love to rape and fail to see the difference.
My uncle is an architect and told me the story of the Euston Arch. Apparently, even though the rebuilding would not affect it (the development site did not directly encroach on it), they insisted on demolishing it anyway. Vandalism, pure and simple.
The stupidity of the town planners have left us with souless towns and cities up and down the country. It enfuriates me that just across the channel in France the towns and villages are for the most part left intact wherever possible from medieval times war damage to many northern parts excepted.
The stupidity of the town planners have left us with souless towns and cities up and down the country. It enfuriates me that just across the channel in France the towns and villages are for the most part left intact wherever possible from medieval times war damage to many northern parts excepted.
it goes back to the French revolution .. when the 'peasants' gained a deal of local autonomy and some political power, power which they have never relinquished .. over here we're still beholden to the 'Crown' and the servants thereof
As Wilma stated the programme is based on Charles Booth's maps. MOG even linked the Booth map above. You will see this when you watch the programme, tho AFKA is already moaning east London is not in it.
The stupidity of the town planners have left us with souless towns and cities up and down the country. It enfuriates me that just across the channel in France the towns and villages are for the most part left intact wherever possible from medieval times war damage to many northern parts excepted.
I'm no expert, but my sense is that local democracy is more vigorous in other countries. People care about local issues more, and government is organised around recognisable communities rather than artificial constructs like (in my case) "Elmbridge". There are drawbacks in terms of "efficiency", but it's a price worth paying in my view. And it works less well around large cities - the Parisien suburbs are nobody's idea of heaven.
The faceless planners got it all wrong for decades, but our local politicians stood back & let it happen - even though there were plenty of people uneasy at the time. We, of all football fans, know all too well that out-of-touch councillors are a SE London phenomenon!
Finally (in mitigation) it's easy to forget what a huge housing shortage we had. Something had to be done. But the solutions were awful, and that's not simply hindsight speaking - we all knew it at the time
Great programme though, and sparked a good discussion
such a sad and depressing programme. one which made me angry. how could these people get away with it. how could they possibly think people want to live half a mile in the sky. before your kids could go outside and play, you could watch them from your step outside your house and make sure they’re alright. you could have a laugh with friends and family on your street. feel like a community. always someone around to talk to. then they get chucked in a building where you can’t see how your kids are unless you got binoculars. you moved so your kids had to try and make new friends. all this put upon them for no decent reason but by the councillors sitting in their Victorian houses up west, wanting a new more efficient city to the expense of the poor.
those women who then became depressed because of how lonely they were. marriages under strain because of how hard it is for someone to understand depression.
they had good houses. houses that sell for three quarters of a million now. the way they evicted them. The report of their houses being ‘lost’. after they got rid of a few who really wants to live in a rubble site. how they lied about the conditions of the houses. how dare they declare that someone’s proud home is a slum. replacing it with some of the worst architecture known to man. I know people may live in these flats like I did. And you might think they are quite alright. For me though I think they look awful compared to those Georgian houses.
there was a shortage of homes but surely this way was not the right way of finding the solution.
Lewisham Council (then rather than now) didn't come out of it very well did they?
They're now knocking down the 60s/70s buildings and replacing them with the underground comunity free buildings that Sparrow mentioned on the previous page. Bromley council knocked down a large Victorian house which I used to live in a couple of years ago and replaced it with modern flats. It's still going on.
The interpretation and application of planning law is a farce.
If you're determined, you'll invariably get away with whatever you want to build - if the council turn it down, the developer goes to appeal at DOE and gets planning rubber stamped.
The council won't fight it in court, because they know they will always lose and have costs awarded against them - which they would have to pay out of Council Tax income/Government grant.
My mum's family on her father's side were from the East End (Shoreditch & Whitechapel), her mother's side Deptford & Bermondsey - I traced the family tree back to the early 1800's & couldn't find a single road mentioned in any of the censuses on either side of the river - all gone - bombed & slum cleared. Amazing what a transformation London underwent in the last century.
Lewisham Council (then rather than now) didn't come out of it very well did they?
They're now knocking down the 60s/70s buildings and replacing them with the underground comunity free buildings that Sparrow mentioned on the previous page. Bromley council knocked down a large Victorian house which I used to live in a couple of years ago and replaced it with modern flats. It's still going on.
All about money now though. Not about improving peoples standard of living, in fact it's probably getting worse with smaller apartments, no gardens etc. Clear the land, pile 'em high & flog 'em. With the demand for housing they get decent wedge for it to whilst still hundreds of thousands can't afford to move out, it will just lead to more blocks of apartments to supply the demand.
Comments
a very sentimental programme .Not sure if it was right to put the old town planner on the spot as the worst of his kind are all now dead .Not sure if deptford high st is now really worth keeping the locals deserve better ..looking fwd to the programme about camberwell grove next week
Unfortunately, the sad example of Deptford was repeated countrywide by the zealous followers of Le Corbusier. What did they care for history, community and sense of place? They had a brave new world to make and anyone that didn't agree was living in the past....couldn't those poor uneducated little folk see that they didn't know what they wanted or what was best for them?
The 'town planners' who committed this vandalism just so they could peer down at cardboard dioramas in their offices with a sense of power and that they were shaping the future are one of the biggest traitors to ever have been foisted on the people of this country. Utter, utter scum. There are thousands of examples, but one from up here in the north typifies it. Preston town hall was a magnificent building, considered the finest example of gothic architecture in the whole of the north of England. 'Mysteriously' it was damaged by fire in 1947 - but not gutted. However, it just so happened that the planners had a nest of schemes to create the 'city of the future' (complete with high rise concrete and connected by underpasses that now stink of piss and that nobody will use for fear of being mugged) and they knocked it down, used the remains (including exquisite carvings, gargoyles etc) as hardcore to shore up the banks of the nearby river (some of the carvings were actually rescued by farmers who thought it criminal that they were being buried never to be seen again - they were recently displayed in a museum exhibition about the whole sorry event). In their wisdom, they replaced it with a hideous modern high rise office block (which looked jarringly out of place in a medieval town square enclosed by old buildings), that was consistently voted the most hated building in the city (despite some stiff competition from their other projects). After this they then presumably thought they could get away with anything and then destroyed the majority of the historic town centre and replaced it with the same modernist concrete crap which the council is now trying to demolish and rebuild in order to escape the legacy that is the bleak, concrete Stalinist/communist utilitarian look that continues to blight our towns and cities throughout the land.
One of the things that continues to befuddle and depress me about this country is that despite having history all around us, we value it so little as to let ideologues and idiots destroy it with barely a whimper. The same way history was rewritten with perceived boundary changes in 1974 to the frankly unbelievable story of the Euston Arch, we simply don't cherish what we have until it's gone.
All my family history is Whitechapel / Bethnal Green, so bit disappointed there isn't going to be an East End feature.
Just Google the Euston Arch, had never heard of it. Quite an impressive entrance to Euston that once was, far better than what they replaced it with! Why we do away with these things I truly don't know.
It seems just 5 minutes down the road they've restored St Pancras to how it should be and Kings Cross will have rid of that awful corrugated type metal front facade.
Because you more affluent and you have different priorities and values, it is arrogant to assume your values are right. These planners didn't understand the sense of family or community and thought that if you gave people a modern kitchen and a nice bathroom they would be happy!
And I thought the modern day decision makers were idiots.
I was hoping they'd do one on a road near me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Booth_(philanthropist)
As Wilma stated the programme is based on Charles Booth's maps. MOG even linked the Booth map above. You will see this when you watch the programme, tho AFKA is already moaning east London is not in it.
The faceless planners got it all wrong for decades, but our local politicians stood back & let it happen - even though there were plenty of people uneasy at the time. We, of all football fans, know all too well that out-of-touch councillors are a SE London phenomenon!
Finally (in mitigation) it's easy to forget what a huge housing shortage we had. Something had to be done. But the solutions were awful, and that's not simply hindsight speaking - we all knew it at the time
Great programme though, and sparked a good discussion
before your kids could go outside and play, you could watch them from your step outside your house and make sure they’re alright. you could have a laugh with friends and family on your street. feel like a community. always someone around to talk to.
then they get chucked in a building where you can’t see how your kids are unless you got binoculars. you moved so your kids had to try and make new friends. all this put upon them for no decent reason but by the councillors sitting in their Victorian houses up west, wanting a new more efficient city to the expense of the poor.
those women who then became depressed because of how lonely they were. marriages under strain because of how hard it is for someone to understand depression.
they had good houses. houses that sell for three quarters of a million now.
the way they evicted them. The report of their houses being ‘lost’.
after they got rid of a few who really wants to live in a rubble site.
how they lied about the conditions of the houses. how dare they declare that someone’s proud home is a slum.
replacing it with some of the worst architecture known to man.
I know people may live in these flats like I did. And you might think they are quite alright. For me though I think they look awful compared to those Georgian houses.
there was a shortage of homes but surely this way was not the right way of finding the solution.
If you're determined, you'll invariably get away with whatever you want to build - if the council turn it down, the developer goes to appeal at DOE and gets planning rubber stamped.
The council won't fight it in court, because they know they will always lose and have costs awarded against them - which they would have to pay out of Council Tax income/Government grant.