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Game Changer on Sunday : Greek Elections ... who will win / who do you want to win

Of all the emergency summits, bailouts and other meetings over the last 2 years, this Sunday could make or break the €uro or perhaps it is just another step on the journey.

In the red corner there is Syriza talking of new deals with Germany and the IMF and collecting taxes from Greeks businesses (!) and in the blue corner we have the other mob who have been part of the government for the last x years.... maybe they know their way about or are they part of the problem?

Wouldn't normally throw this kinda thing on the forum but to me this is a big event shaping the next 5 years

Comments

  • I haven't got a clue and I suspect the bulk of the politicians haven't got a clue either. The Greek electorate is against austerity, us keeping the Elgin marbles and other nasty things. Anything could happen but a very messy unworkable coalition is the most likely outcome. I just pray that investors don't further destabilise the banks and start moving their money into Germany or out of the Eurozone altogether.
  • I just want a clear resolution one way or the other, this thing has dragged on for far too long and is damaging the whole global economy. The Greeks want it both way's, stay in the Euro but without the austerity. Growth will never occur under austerity This is, I suspect, the way that other nations are moving as well since the French election. Merkel will eventually have to cave in and allow the creation of Eurobonds. A win for Syriza would not be welcomed by the markets, but in the long run it may be the result that finally forces Germany's hand into taking the required action.
  • Basically it's the horror of accepting austerity or getting cut loose to a far worse fate and more pain for everyone else in Europe (and beyond). It should be a no-brainer, but there's been a lot of no-brainers to get us to this point.
  • I just want a clear resolution one way or the other, this thing has dragged on for far too long and is damaging the whole global economy. The Greeks want it both way's, stay in the Euro but without the austerity. Growth will never occur under austerity This is, I suspect, the way that other nations are moving as well since the French election. Merkel will eventually have to cave in and allow the creation of Eurobonds. A win for Syriza would not be welcomed by the markets, but in the long run it may be the result that finally forces Germany's hand into taking the required action.

    Well said Queensland addick and agree. There have been a number of factors at play here the first is that The Greeks want to maintain their inflated and unrealistic social benefits such as retirement at 52 without paying the necessary income tax to pay for this and on the other hand you have Germany's paranoia around inflationary actions such as a Eurobank bail out which goes back to the 1930's when their economy collapsed. The best result would be a some sort of orderly departure from the
  • This bloody site drives me mad at times! Keeps cutting off my posts (self regulating) Anyway an orderly departure from the Euro by Greece is the best outcome but it is highly likely that this will create the domino effect and then we go onto Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Glad we are not in this currency.
  • We talk about the Greeks accepting austerity rather too glibly IMO. The UK version of austerity has always included access to social security and the NHS for the needy. Not so for the Greeks. I have been reading some recent medical reports and there are Greek children who are showing signs of malnutrition. The Greek version of austerity is very nasty and beyond our experiences, so I do think that we should bear that in mind when criticising the attitude of the Greeks.
  • You make a good point stilladdickted of course we don't want to see this kind of deprivation in any country but it is sometimes hard to square this with the way the Greeks operate. It was common for government workers to never be at their job as they were working a second job at for instance family run businesses with no comeback, they ovepay staff to such an extent that in the case of their national rail system it would almost be cheaper to send all the passengers by taxi that run the rail system. There is an endemic dislike of income tax, it's all well and good having a social secuity structure but it has to be paid for and they patently haven't been doing this and that is why the country is unravelling. I too have sympathy for the people there but they need a reality check otherwise it will NEVER get better for them
  • I was in Athen's this time last week, for a very brief time, and the people that I spoke to seemed 'fatigued' by all of this.
    They felt that the measures already imposed were frankly 'unfair'. When you consider that there economy is largely based on service industries like tourism, there ability to turn this mess around seems to be beyond the individual. People that I spoke to knew things had to change, but it was the time framework, and severity that was the issue. All very well for a political party to have a mandate, policies and a big stick, but unlike the UK the greek culture seems to be in another time frame.
  • Corruption has led to this. They blatantly lied about their financial status to enter the euro zone. Now the whole population is having to bear the brunt of this. The whole thing is a mess and I'm not sure Europe would be better off without them. After all "what have the Greeks ever done for us"??
    I expect Mr. Popolopolopoladisisisopolardisis will get elected.
  • Corruption has led to this. They blatantly lied about their financial status to enter the euro zone. Now the whole population is having to bear the brunt of this. The whole thing is a mess and I'm not sure Europe would be better off without them. After all "what have the Greeks ever done for us"??
    I expect Mr. Popolopolopoladisisisopolardisis will get elected.
    This
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  • On a Greek single decker bus:
    1 driver
    1 fare collector
    1 ticket issuer

    Then retire at 50 on full pension

    madness.
  • On a Greek single decker bus:
    1 driver
    1 fare collector
    1 ticket issuer

    Then retire at 50 on full pension

    madness.
    Yes, I saw this on the TV, then they wonder why they are in the poo
  • With long lifespans and early retirement, the pensions are probably enough to bankrupt Greece on their own.
  • I read an interesting article yesterday by Nouriel Roubini in which he advocated the German government giving each of their citizens $1250 on the provision that the money be spent on a holiday to Greece. In addition, tax cuts for Germans buying a second home in Greece. That would be a great way of injecting capital into the greek economy and redistributing wealth to where it's needed. I think some creative thinking such as this is required rather than simply pumping money into banks for them to hoard and pay themselves huge bonuses.
  • Add into that the poor tax collection system, if you live outside a big city nobody is employed to chase non tax payers.

    We know a professional couple that live on the coast, he is a vet and she is a solicitor, both earn very good money, work for themselves and pay next to no tax at all.

    They ignore the tax return forms that come out once a year because they are never followed up.

    They also own a block with 4 apartments in it which they rent out for holidays (how we know them), its all cash and nothing is declared.

    My sister in law and her husband go and live in one of the apartmnets for 6 months of the year and have got to know the family and a lot of their friends really well and the above is common throughout them all.
  • I don't want them to fall off a cliff but somehow the tax systems (and collection), benefits and retirement age / pensions have to equalise across Europe else voters in countries where the books balance will be seriously annoyed and refuse to back "weaker" economies... people moan about centralisation etc but I think that this is what the €uro is all about and Germany are finally waking up to the need to guarantee banks and their depositers else the money will run away into $/£/CHF

    ...If you look at ft.com there is an article by the Syriza leader today - looks convincing but his mob seem to stretch from Lib Dem to Old Labour... so what are the chances of a decent resolution with the IMF

    As per Queensland maybe DeutscheBahn should buy the Greek rail network etc.
  • I feel sorry for the Greeks who are suffering but the country as a whole only as itself to blame, they have never, ever paid their fair share and have lived a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget - and now the party is over and they have to pay the bill.

    Don't forget that the money that should have been paid in taxes is still being held by individuals and companies that refused to pay what they should have by law.

    My friend in Athens was telling me that the tax system is basically self declaration, so even doctors, lawyers and very high earners claim they earn below the tax-paying threshold so pay no tax - and there is never any follow up.

    Their rationale for not paying is that the government would only "waste" their taxes if they paid them!

    This left-wing little prick Tsipras is a typical scum-bag politician, seeing a gap in the market and telling the punters what they want to hear which, in this case, is to refuse to pay back what they owe to the Germans.

    One only need look at the current goings on in Argentina to see the longer term dangers of defaulting on your debts, the Argies are hoarding cash because nobody will borrow them money because they defaulted on their loans 10 years back.
  • Very well put OA and ditto what I aid in an earlier post about the people we know.
  • DFK DFC
  • You can't blame the Greeks for being against austerity - especially when the austerity in store for them will see many struggle to put food in their Children's mouths. Great how we/ the rest of Europe look down on them for not welcoming the idea with open arms whilst the people who started this crisis are awarding themselves massive bonuses again!
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  • One only need look at the current goings on in Argentina to see the longer term dangers of defaulting on your debts, the Argies are hoarding cash because nobody will borrow them money because they defaulted on their loans 10 years back.

    Can't they go to Wonga? I think they overlook CCJs and the like ;-)
  • MuttleyCAFC said:

    You can't blame the Greeks for being against austerity - especially when the austerity in store for them will see many struggle to put food in their Children's mouths. Great how we/ the rest of Europe look down on them for not welcoming the idea with open arms whilst the people who started this crisis are awarding themselves massive bonuses again!

    Well Muttley I too don't want to see children going hungry but I cannot agree with what you say. The system and by dint of that the citizens have lived under a system that ignores personal responsibility (paying your taxes in return for services, pensions etc), overpaying and overstaffing and now want the rest of Europe to pay for their profigatory. It isn't just bankers who are to blame here it is a whole country that borrowed more than it could afford and lied to get the money and sorry but this is the case.

    Let me give you an analogy. Your next door neighbour doesn't pay his rent/mortgage but still buys flat screen TV's, laptops and a nice BMW the baliffs come round to repossess the house (basically = austerity) but before asking him to leave they ask you to pay his arrears....I don't know for certain but I can make a good guess what the answer would be.
  • Maybe somebody should have pulled them up on these issues before though and set stricter conditions on joining the Euro and other forms of economic union. But the fact is that nobody predicted the cliff edge we have all fallen from - and the reason we have fallen from it is the greed of certain bankers.

    Of course it is true that levels of public spending were too high in Greece and to be fair in this country. In the defence of the previous administration, we had years of sustained growth which actually mean't debt was much lower than under the Tories but public spending was dangerously high should we fall into this kind of disaster.

    To be fair, the Labour Government realised this in 2005 ish and were gradually looking to lower the costs in many areas. We now have the situation where our economy is smaller and we are poorer - well some of us are anyway. And that is my major gripe- we are not in this together at all and the system needs changing. Free capitalism has been discredited, of course their is no option other than a capitalist system- history has shown us that, but there needs to be an alternative were the markets and bankls have less freedom and wealth is more evenely spread around. It will be difficult to achieve, because the wealthy don't want to give up any of their wealth and they ahve th epower and influence.
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