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Celebrity tax avoidance, set to become a hot topic this summer?

edited June 2012 in Not Sports Related
Following the news yesterday that Jimmy Carr has been using a Jersey based scheme to avoid as much income tax as possible and now this morning's revelations that members of Take That are accused of doing the same, I wonder if we are going to get many more of these? Could be as big as the expenses scandal, no?

Personally I think, and would expect most others to think the same, that avoidance is wrong. I also believe tax is apolitical, because we all have a duty to pay it and no Party can really claim to be acting in the best interests of the public, especially as in recent years major donors to both the Labour and Tory parties have been accused of avoiding tax.

Hopefully these stories will run and run, might ruin a few reputations and bruise a few egos!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/9343267/Taxman-to-challenge-loophole-that-shelters-millions-for-Jimmy-Carr.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161925/Take-That-stars-26million-tax-shelters.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
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Comments

  • I can't see an issue with rich people using legal means to pay less tax. Jimmy Carr and Take That probably pay more tax than you or I EGA. If I use an ISA or put more of my savings into a pension to pay less tax I don't think I'm doing anything morally wrong. I think these things turn into jealousy exercises, pointing at people richer than you and judging them based ona spurious set of morals. A builder that gets paid in tax and doesn't declare it is doing a lot more wrong than a rich person using a tax strategy.

    That said I think every government in history could do more to shut obvious loopholes down. I've got several friends that are self employed contractors that do the same kind of job as me, get paid more and that claim back all kinds of spurious things against their tax (cars, flat screens, taxi rides) and pay less NI, which is a bit of a nonsense.
  • edited June 2012
    Tax by it's very nature is a proportion of benefit. It's completely irrelevant how much an individual pays in tax, but the critical factor is what proportion.

    I agree in a wider context it is easy to turn these things into a 'jealousy exercise' but it is also utterly rational to criticise someone who finds a way of paying income tax equal to less than 1% of his earnings when the man in the street is paying considerably more.
  • Yeah, really nice to see that über patriot Gary Barlow - last seen inserting his tongue into the Royal Family's collective anus - doing the right thing and paying his taxes like everyone else.

    Mind you, he was probably getting his tax advice from the Windsor's, they've never been keen on paying their share either.

    Sign of the times that we have a Tory Chancellor pursuing these people - the Tories would never normally pursue these matters.

    Great reporting from The Times, I wonder why they are going after celebrities........
  • Jimmy Carr is just doing a 'U2'
  • Celebrities - will this include footballers? I suspect many of these are big tax avoiders. I should think particularly applies to overseas stars. I would be suprised if they pay more than minimal tax. for someone like Torres or da Silva they would be able to avoid paying UK or Spanish tax.
    I suspect some-one like Rooney will have his image rights paid off-shore.
    More effort needs to be made to address these loopholes but you cant blame people for using them.
  • I wouldn't mind if Carr was even funny .. he looks like a pervy bank clerk and as far as i am concerned, he is as funny and amusing as a wet friday in hospital. Bigger fools the public for making this man a millionaire. The best way to 'punish' tax avoiders is not to shop at their shops, read their books or watch their TV programmes, videos or stage shows.
  • I can't see an issue with rich people using legal means to pay less tax. Jimmy Carr and Take That probably pay more tax than you or I EGA. If I use an ISA or put more of my savings into a pension to pay less tax I don't think I'm doing anything morally wrong. I think these things turn into jealousy exercises, pointing at people richer than you and judging them based ona spurious set of morals. A builder that gets paid in tax and doesn't declare it is doing a lot more wrong than a rich person using a tax strategy.

    That said I think every government in history could do more to shut obvious loopholes down. I've got several friends that are self employed contractors that do the same kind of job as me, get paid more and that claim back all kinds of spurious things against their tax (cars, flat screens, taxi rides) and pay less NI, which is a bit of a nonsense.
    The problem with people like take that and Jimmy Carr avioding tax is that every year they seemed to be filmed in Africa looking upset about poverty. It undermines their good work when it's pointed out that if they paid tax in full the government would have more money for foreign aid etc.

  • Yeah, really nice to see that über patriot Gary Barlow - last seen inserting his tongue into the Royal Family's collective anus - doing the right thing and paying his taxes like everyone else.

    Mind you, he was probably getting his tax advice from the Windsor's, they've never been keen on paying their share either.

    Sign of the times that we have a Tory Chancellor pursuing these people - the Tories would never normally pursue these matters.

    Great reporting from The Times, I wonder why they are going after celebrities........
    Because it won't affect the city fat cats and creates the illusion that the Tories are doing something about tax avoidance.

  • It's more embarrassing for Carr, as he's on the satirical 10 o'clock show, which spends much of it's time complaining about government cuts, wicked bankers, big business not paying tax etc. Nobody expects sportsmen to set a moral tone for the country (not in terms of paying tax anyway). Jenson Button has lived in tax havens for years, and nobody seems that bothered.
  • edited June 2012
    <<blockquote rel="EGAddick">Following the news yesterday that Jimmy Carr has been using a Jersey based scheme to avoid as much income tax as possible ....

    "as possible"....that's the key. He and others like him will still pay tax subject to resident and domicile rules and probably more in a year than I'll pay in ten.

    Yes he is minimising his tax but then so does anyone when they claim expenses, get tax credits etc.

    Someone like Jimmy Carr will generate millions in revenue for example when he puts on a tour....think how many people involved in that are employed, paid wages and then pay tax on those wages, catering companies and venues who in turn then pay tax into HMRC's coffers.

    If he didnt do a tour you wouldnt have that.

    Im wary of the outrage around tax avoidance as it discourages people to go out and do well for themselves and generate wealth for others.

    Whenever I have heard the likes of UK Uncut demonstrate their gripes they seem to fail a basic grasp of economics in that if you tax people to the hilt you will discincentivise them from operating at all and a lot of their views seem to drive towards a non capitalist society.

    Im not a uber capitalist but at the same time I dont want to live in a socialist collective where we trade lentil soup and hair braiding services to get us through the winter.

    Hand on heart here who honestly would pay money to the government if they won £100m on the Euros this weekend?



    I certainly wouldnt. I would give some to charity and perhaps do something philanthropic and then look after my family and friends but I would not feel the slightest bit guilty not paying Cameron and Co or whatever incompetents were pulling the pursestrings to squander it on wars, quangos or whatever the flavour of the day is.
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  • I can't see an issue with rich people using legal means to pay less tax. Jimmy Carr and Take That probably pay more tax than you or I EGA. If I use an ISA or put more of my savings into a pension to pay less tax I don't think I'm doing anything morally wrong. I think these things turn into jealousy exercises, pointing at people richer than you and judging them based ona spurious set of morals. A builder that gets paid in tax and doesn't declare it is doing a lot more wrong than a rich person using a tax strategy.

    That said I think every government in history could do more to shut obvious loopholes down. I've got several friends that are self employed contractors that do the same kind of job as me, get paid more and that claim back all kinds of spurious things against their tax (cars, flat screens, taxi rides) and pay less NI, which is a bit of a nonsense.
    The problem with people like take that and Jimmy Carr avioding tax is that every year they seemed to be filmed in Africa looking upset about poverty. It undermines their good work when it's pointed out that if they paid tax in full the government would have more money for foreign aid etc.

    Fantastic point, you can chuck that shifty arsehole Bono into that lot as well.

    I met a government minister from a developing country last year who had had the pleasure of meeting Bono on one of his "visits" where he lectures government officials on how they should be solving their problems.

    The minister I spoke to said that although he was grateful for the money raised that he and his colleagues did not appreciate being spoken to like a bunch of idiots by a pop singer!
  • edited June 2012
    .
  • edited June 2012
    <<blockquote rel="EGAddick">Following the news yesterday that Jimmy Carr has been using a Jersey based scheme to avoid as much income tax as possible ....
    "as possible"....that's the key. He and others like him will still pay tax subject to resident and domicile rules and probably more in a year than I'll pay in ten.

    Yes he is minimising his tax but then so does anyone when they claim expenses, get tax credits etc.

    Someone like Jimmy Carr will generate millions in revenue for example when he puts on a tour....think how many people involved in that are employed, paid wages and then pay tax on those wages, catering companies and venues who in turn then pay tax into HMRC's coffers.

    If he didnt do a tour you wouldnt have that.

    Im wary of the outrage around tax avoidance as it discourages people to go out and do well for themselves and generate wealth for others.

    Whenever I have heard the likes of UK Uncut demonstrate their gripes they seem to fail a basic grasp of economics in that if you tax people to the hilt you will discincentivise them from operating at all and a lot of their views seem to drive towards a non capitalist society.

    Im not a uber capitalist but at the same time I dont want to live in a socialist collective where we trade lentil soup and hair braiding services to get us through the winter.



    That's not what I'm advocating either. For instance I don't agree with the top rate of income tax; I don't pay it, but I disagree with it purely for the reasons you suggest. If anything it encourages individuals within that bracket to actively search for loopholes.

    The tax system we have is far from perfect, it not only has a number of bolt-holes and schemes but it also has systems that impinge a broad range of people from private individuals to small businesses.

    I've never really bought the idea that individuals with vast wealth or large companies bring direct benefits to the UK. Yes the argument is clearly there for indirect benefits, but everyone should pay income tax if their business or income is derived inside the UK, and whether he or she is a major employer or not is irrelevant.

  • I don't think Richard Branson pays much, if any, tax to the UK. He is seen as an entrepreneur.
  • Two_Sheds will be crapping himself!
  • I don't think Richard Branson pays much, if any, tax to the UK. He is seen as an entrepreneur.
    Correct. Neither does Murdoch (irony being that these stories first broke through one of his newspapers...) or Bernie Ecclestone, Philip Green... etc etc
  • The government needs to set a flat tax rate across the board so that it is non economical for the wealthy to avoid paying it.

    Equally I would scrap tax for everyone earning below a certain threshold as this would hopefully give people incentives to work as it would be worthwhile. Can sympathise with some people that dont work because when you factor in child care and travel costs it's not worth getting out of bed as the net difference theyd earn between working and not working is minmal.

    It's not working the way it is at the moment and the bitterness it creates from all elements of the specrtum is corrosive.
  • edited June 2012
    The government needs to set a flat tax rate across the board so that it is non economical for the wealthy to avoid paying it.

    Equally I would scrap tax for everyone earning below a certain threshold as this would hopefully give people incentives to work as it would be worthwhile. Can sympathise with some people that dont work because when you factor in child care and travel costs it's not worth getting out of bed as the net difference theyd earn between working and not working is minmal.

    It's not working the way it is at the moment and the bitterness it creates from all elements of the specrtum is corrosive.
    That would simplify things but is it really fair that a secretary earning 25K PA pays the same rate of tax as her boss on 100K PA? I don't think it is and I don't think many others would either.

    Cameron was shitting his pants about lowering the top-rate from 50% to 45% because of the image it would create, there's no way known he will risk a flat-tax - even though many on the right of his party would love him to do it.
  • The government needs to set a flat tax rate across the board so that it is non economical for the wealthy to avoid paying it.

    Equally I would scrap tax for everyone earning below a certain threshold as this would hopefully give people incentives to work as it would be worthwhile. Can sympathise with some people that dont work because when you factor in child care and travel costs it's not worth getting out of bed as the net difference theyd earn between working and not working is minmal.

    It's not working the way it is at the moment and the bitterness it creates from all elements of the specrtum is corrosive.
    That would simplify things but is it really fair that a secretary earning 25K PA pays the same rate of tax as her boss on 100K PA? I don't think it is and I don't think many others would either.

    Cameron was shitting his pants about lowering the top-rate from 50% to 45% because of the image it would create, there's no way known he will risk a flat-tax - even though many on the right of his party would love him to do ot.
    Right now many PAs are paying a higher rate of tax.
  • edited June 2012
    When you see how governements spend peoples money on Domes and Olympic projects (Insert your own vanity project) is it any wonder that celebrities go to great lengths to avoid paying tax , not saying its right but can you blame them?

    But then for celebrities to attack bankers etc is hypocritical , i guess it makes them filled justified about cheating the system , by having a go at others who are?
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  • The government needs to set a flat tax rate across the board so that it is non economical for the wealthy to avoid paying it.

    Equally I would scrap tax for everyone earning below a certain threshold as this would hopefully give people incentives to work as it would be worthwhile. Can sympathise with some people that dont work because when you factor in child care and travel costs it's not worth getting out of bed as the net difference theyd earn between working and not working is minmal.

    It's not working the way it is at the moment and the bitterness it creates from all elements of the specrtum is corrosive.
    That would simplify things but is it really fair that a secretary earning 25K PA pays the same rate of tax as her boss on 100K PA? I don't think it is and I don't think many others would either.

    Cameron was shitting his pants about lowering the top-rate from 50% to 45% because of the image it would create, there's no way known he will risk a flat-tax - even though many on the right of his party would love him to do ot.
    Right now many PAs are paying a higher rate of tax.
    Ha! You're probably not wrong there, but they shouldn't be should they?

    I listened to the way The Times described the tax loophole exploited by TT and it is an absolute piss-take, its hard to believe that somebody decided that could actually be legal.

  • Equally I would scrap tax for everyone earning below a certain threshold as this would hopefully give people incentives to work as it would be worthwhile. Can sympathise with some people that dont work because when you factor in child care and travel costs it's not worth getting out of bed as the net difference theyd earn between working and not working is minmal.

    It's not working the way it is at the moment and the bitterness it creates from all elements of the specrtum is corrosive.
    Er you mean like the Liberal initiative which scrapped tax up to 9 grand of earnings this year?.......

    There will be no income tax on earnings up to £9,205, the Chancellor announced in his budget statement to the House of Commons earlier today.
    Increasing the personal allowance takes 2 million of the lowest paid people in the country out of income taxation. George Osborne went on to claim that those earning less than £100,000 a year would be £170 better off on average.


  • edited June 2012
    The government needs to set a flat tax rate across the board so that it is non economical for the wealthy to avoid paying it.

    Equally I would scrap tax for everyone earning below a certain threshold as this would hopefully give people incentives to work as it would be worthwhile. Can sympathise with some people that dont work because when you factor in child care and travel costs it's not worth getting out of bed as the net difference theyd earn between working and not working is minmal.

    It's not working the way it is at the moment and the bitterness it creates from all elements of the specrtum is corrosive.
    That would simplify things but is it really fair that a secretary earning 25K PA pays the same rate of tax as her boss on 100K PA? I don't think it is and I don't think many others would either.

    Cameron was shitting his pants about lowering the top-rate from 50% to 45% because of the image it would create, there's no way known he will risk a flat-tax - even though many on the right of his party would love him to do it.

    I agree it's not fair no... but for example my missus is a secretary she works 9-5 and doesnt worry about her work outside of those hours. Her boss is a partner in the firm who studied law for years and works til midnight most night and weekends. She has the responsibility and burden to ensure her firm earns enough to employ my missus and hundreds like her. My missus doesnt have that pressure.

    The £5k the secretary pays in tax will possibly be harder- hitting than the £20k the boss would pay but then that is perhaps the trade- off for having a job without the responsibilities, stress and hours the boss endures.

    It's not fair and the system should be overhauled but you still need to keep a level of incentive to encourage people to be high earning bosses who generate jobs and wealth for others otherwise it would almost be more attractive to have a relatively stress free career as a secretary (for example) with more free time and less worry.

    There's nothing stopping my missus from training to be a lawyer and nothing stopping the a lot of folk in general becoming entrepreneurs other than lack of ambition and drive OR choice that they would prefer an alternative lifestyle.
  • There's a big difference between avoidance and efficiency.

    Don't we all avoid paying as much as we can, it's just that I'm not a multimillionaire so there isn't that much to avoid.

    If these celebrities are working within the rules and you font like it surely your issue is with the rules and not the individual ?
  • Avoidance is legal evasion is illegal.

    My problem is not with avoidance per se, we all want to do the best we can for our families, but the hypocrisy of so many of these "right on" celebrities who love to lecture the ordinary "working scum" as to how they should live and to whom they should give money whilst feathering their own nests.
  • I operate outside of IR35 as a contractor and happy to pay my tax and NI, but also quite comfortable in taking what I can in expenses, subsistence etc., providing it's above board.

    It gets my goat however, when I get a snotty letter from HMRC telling me my tax/ni was a week late, when people like Portsmouth FC can hang on to their employers tax and ni running into millions for months at time.
    They are the people who should be targetted. (Yes, I know they were).
  • Tax the rich to hell and give it all to the poor. When the rich leave the country pay people a lot lot less to work in manufacturing, as there won't be many options with services now overseas, and then our manufacturing exports will increase massively.

    Limit everyone to one child and stop foreign travel.

    That will sort it out.



  • I operate outside of IR35 as a contractor and happy to pay my tax and NI, but also quite comfortable in taking what I can in expenses, subsistence etc., providing it's above board.

    It gets my goat however, when I get a snotty letter from HMRC telling me my tax/ni was a week late, when people like Portsmouth FC can hang on to their employers tax and ni running into millions for months at time.
    They are the people who should be targetted. (Yes, I know they were).
    Agree completelt, the IR are chasing my old man - retired on a meagre pension in his mid-60's - for a disputed 600 quid with absolute ferocity, letters, phone calls and the works.

    He is not opposed to paying if they can show why he actually owes it but they are just playing bully boy, its hard to escape the conclusion that they love to pick the easy hanging fruit.
  • Yeah, really nice to see that über patriot Gary Barlow - last seen inserting his tongue into the Royal Family's collective anus - doing the right thing and paying his taxes like everyone else.

    Mind you, he was probably getting his tax advice from the Windsor's, they've never been keen on paying their share either.

    Sign of the times that we have a Tory Chancellor pursuing these people - the Tories would never normally pursue these matters.

    Great reporting from The Times, I wonder why they are going after celebrities........
    Because it won't affect the city fat cats and creates the illusion that the Tories are doing something about tax avoidance.

    Just what I was thinking. Smoke and Mirrors.
  • small change compared to what corporations avoid
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