They want to leave the umbrella of the UK and stand alone, but please can Celtic and Rangers join your Football League, even though they didn't want to be part of Team GB at Olympics.
Suspect that when the cold hard ecconomic facts are layed out before the electorate the vote to remain within the union will be massive. I wonder what happens to the SNP should such a huge rejection take place. It was always fundamentally their raison d'être. Wouldn't be surprised if post referendum we see a steady decline in the SNP's popularity and a return to traditional Scottish support of the Labour Party. Will be great spectator sport I think.
I hope the Scots choose independence, but doubt that they will. Whatever happens the current lop-sided devolution settlement is unsustainable. England is suffering a democratic defecit. England pays for the largesse of the Holyrood 'government' (all the social benefits given free, that we in England have to pay for) Unfortunately the probable answer from the Tories and Labour, will be to chop England into regions, still under the UK parliament. The only fair answer is a parliament for England within a new federal UK.
The simplistic answer is, if the UK government politically recognises England, it also recognises the UK as it currently stands is finished. Hence my comment, we need a new Federal UK.
The creation of an English Parliament would actually decrease the number of politicians and make massive savings. All Scots, Welsh and N.Irish MP's removed from Westminster. The English parliament could work perfectly well with around 400 MP's. The House of Lords would be no longer required as all decisions made in the home nations parliaments would be unitary. 800 peers, their salary and expenses removed. A new Federal house would be required to oversee UK wide reserved policy. This could be around 100 'senators' housed in the former House of Lords. Kap10 may not like the Conservatives, i'm not keen on them myself. But whichever party was voted into power within England. It would make decisions for England without outside interference form the other home nations. If you can remember? Tuition fees were foisted onto England by the use of Scots constituency MP's votes. Despite Scotland having already voted against them for Scotland.
I hope the Scots choose independence, but doubt that they will. Whatever happens the current lop-sided devolution settlement is unsustainable. England is suffering a democratic defecit. England pays for the largesse of the Holyrood 'government' (all the social benefits given free, that we in England have to pay for) Unfortunately the probable answer from the Tories and Labour, will be to chop England into regions, still under the UK parliament. The only fair answer is a parliament for England within a new federal UK.
Wrong! The figures usually quoted by Scots are; Scotland pays 9.6% of UK tax and in return recieves 9.3% of government spending. 9.6% tax = £54 Billion 9.3% spend = £64 Billion These are available for you to check for yourself. So as i said. England is paying for Scottish largesse
I hope the Scots choose independence, but doubt that they will. Whatever happens the current lop-sided devolution settlement is unsustainable. England is suffering a democratic defecit. England pays for the largesse of the Holyrood 'government' (all the social benefits given free, that we in England have to pay for) Unfortunately the probable answer from the Tories and Labour, will be to chop England into regions, still under the UK parliament. The only fair answer is a parliament for England within a new federal UK.
This is made up.
As a country Scotland pays more than it receives.
Actually no-one knows. The pro-independence lobby take into account the expected yields from oil and gas over the next few decades whereas the counter argument is that Scotland has an inflated bereaucracy, a crippling social security budget and significant social ills that could not be repaired if the country were to divide from the Union
A few points to add:
Scotland has: 11% of its 5m population claiming disability benefits which far exceeds any other democracy in Western Europe. Highest proportion of teenage pregnancy in Western Europe Highest proportion of heart disease in Western Europe Highest proportion of alcohol dependent citizens in Western Europe Highest proportion of heroin addicts and as a consequence the largest number of drug-support agencies per head of population. Lowest life expectancy in Western Europe Highest murder rate in Western Europe Highest proportion of adults in prison in Western Europe
The big problem with the whole independence debate is absolutely NO-ONE from either side is saying what is going to happen with the NHS and social security. Will the Scottish govt still receive handouts from Westminster? Why should it? Or will the Scottish people have to face increased taxation to pay for it?
Scotland also has a huge problem with the gaps between rich and poor. Of it's 5m citizens just 340 own 58% of the country's land. The division of wealth far exceeds most Western democracies.
Of course one of the biggest losers south of the border will be the Labour Party. Of the 59 Scottish MP’s that do reside in Westminster, 41 belong to the Labour Party, 11 Lib Dems, 6 from the SNP and 1 Tory MP will effectively lose their seats. It could mean that the Tories would not need the Lib Dems anymore to form a coalition govt.
From a personal point of view I've not met a single Scotsman (or lady) that is for independence. Admittedly most of them live south of the border but even if you look at the opinion polls it seems Salmond's desire is doomed. The English should have a say though IMO.
Those who want Scotland to have independance (and aren't Scottish), are they basing it on any political/economic reasons or just because they don't like the Scots?
If you purely take the proportion of tax paid to the proportion of the UK population, Scotland more than pays it's way, but as EGA points out there's more to it than that. I personally don't believe that the SNP represents the majority of Scottish people. This view that their opinions are those of all Scots is just as stupid as me saying that all of you lot agree with the EDL, or BNP or Communist Party or any other group. A few bawbags will always lap up their nonsense. They will typically either be too rich or too poor or too thick to be affected by their daft policies.
I must say that I'm a little proud of EGA's (unsubstantiated) figures. Nice to be top of a few leagues. Might have mentioned a few of the more positive leagues such as Education or contribution to armed forces personnel, but hey-ho.
If the sweaties do vote to feck off then I trust they will have to chip in part of the cost of subsidising Wales and NI, the burden of which falls on guess who....the English. They will also have to figure out which currency they want to use because a Scottish pound wont be viable and they will suffer the consequences either way. It will be good if we no longer have to listen to the smug Sturgeon any longer. Has she been a "would ya?" because it's a "no feckin way" from me!
Regrettably the answer to the muddle that is the governance of the UK is along the lines Daggs suggests. Politicians don't want it as it threatens their sense of security.
If the sweaties do vote to feck off then I trust they will have to chip in part of the cost of subsidising Wales and NI, the burden of which falls on guess who....the English. They will also have to figure out which currency they want to use because a Scottish pound wont be viable and they will suffer the consequences either way. It will be good if we no longer have to listen to the smug Sturgeon any longer. Has she been a "would ya?" because it's a "no feckin way" from me!
Regrettably the answer to the muddle that is the governance of the UK is along the lines Daggs suggests. Politicians don't want it as it threatens their sense of security.
Why would an independent Scotland pay towards Wales and NI ?
Very interesting post, EGA. I think that if Scotland leaves the union, then we will all end up losers. The only positive will be that it may shut up the McGlashans of this world (English blamers par excellance, tedious in the extreme and thankfully, a tiny minority) - but the UK would be diminished by losing Scotland and the land of milk of honey is unlikely to appear in a post-independence Scotland, despite what many deluded people may think. Anyway, I love Scotland and its people and I hope that they, like myself, believe that we are better off together. If not, I think it will all end in tears.
Here, here Bigstemarra. I am a Scot but if they leave the Union, I will take an English passport. The only gainers north of the border will be the politicians. Britain will not be better off without Scotland either. It's not simple sums but the "wealth" of nations....
Nice to read a few sensible comments here. As half English and half Scottish, born and bred in Belvedere but lived last 20 years in Scotland, I will be on the first train out if the Nats win. At the moment, I don't think they will, but two years is a long time, and for all his sliminess, Alexi Salmonella is a canny politician...the NO campaign must get its act together...
Wrong! The figures usually quoted by Scots are; Scotland pays 9.6% of UK tax and in return recieves 9.3% of government spending. 9.6% tax = £54 Billion 9.3% spend = £64 Billion These are available for you to check for yourself. So as i said. England is paying for Scottish largesse
Correct. Disingenuous the way the SNP use the stats. Sums them up really. Happy to drop the 10bn pa it costs us.
Regarding currency, Salmond has said they'd keep the pound - "only if we let them!" I say.
And this is the main point... pre 2008 Scotland could have followed the Celtic Tiger model joining the Euro and getting regional development funds plus dropping the corporation tax rate to attract multinationals (from London)... but the Euro aint quite so popular any more! So now they want independance AND the pound... and a representative in the Bank of England
Irrespective of the numbers I don't think it adds up ... at least the disingenuous "devo-max" option is no longer on the table...hopefully the Scottish electorate will see sense and kick this one into touch
Wrong! The figures usually quoted by Scots are; Scotland pays 9.6% of UK tax and in return recieves 9.3% of government spending. 9.6% tax = £54 Billion 9.3% spend = £64 Billion These are available for you to check for yourself. So as i said. England is paying for Scottish largesse
I haven't checked you figures at all, but logically they don't suggest that England is paying for Scottish "largesse" at all; they suggest that money is coming from elsewhere (presumably some form of borrowing).
Regarding currency, Salmond has said they'd keep the pound - "only if we let them!" I say.
And this is the main point... pre 2008 Scotland could have followed the Celtic Tiger model joining the Euro and getting regional development funds plus dropping the corporation tax rate to attract multinationals (from London)... but the Euro aint quite so popular any more! So now they want independance AND the pound... and a representative in the Bank of England
Irrespective of the numbers I don't think it adds up ... at least the disingenuous "devo-max" option is no longer on the table...hopefully the Scottish electorate will see sense and kick this one into touch
to remain in the EU won't they have to join the Euro? Thought I heard that somewhere, I might dreaming though
Comments
Unfortunately the probable answer from the Tories and Labour, will be to chop England into regions, still under the UK parliament.
The only fair answer is a parliament for England within a new federal UK.
Of course from an English point of view the loss of Scotland would result in an inbuilt Conservative majority this side of the border.
All Scots, Welsh and N.Irish MP's removed from Westminster. The English parliament could work perfectly well with around 400 MP's.
The House of Lords would be no longer required as all decisions made in the home nations parliaments would be unitary. 800 peers, their salary and expenses removed.
A new Federal house would be required to oversee UK wide reserved policy. This could be around 100 'senators' housed in the former House of Lords.
Kap10 may not like the Conservatives, i'm not keen on them myself. But whichever party was voted into power within England. It would make decisions for England without outside interference form the other home nations.
If you can remember? Tuition fees were foisted onto England by the use of Scots constituency MP's votes. Despite Scotland having already voted against them for Scotland.
As a country Scotland pays more than it receives.
Scotland pays 9.6% of UK tax and in return recieves 9.3% of government spending.
9.6% tax = £54 Billion
9.3% spend = £64 Billion
These are available for you to check for yourself.
So as i said. England is paying for Scottish largesse
A few points to add:
Scotland has:
11% of its 5m population claiming disability benefits which far exceeds any other democracy in Western Europe.
Highest proportion of teenage pregnancy in Western Europe
Highest proportion of heart disease in Western Europe
Highest proportion of alcohol dependent citizens in Western Europe
Highest proportion of heroin addicts and as a consequence the largest number of drug-support agencies per head of population.
Lowest life expectancy in Western Europe
Highest murder rate in Western Europe
Highest proportion of adults in prison in Western Europe
The big problem with the whole independence debate is absolutely NO-ONE from either side is saying what is going to happen with the NHS and social security. Will the Scottish govt still receive handouts from Westminster? Why should it? Or will the Scottish people have to face increased taxation to pay for it?
Scotland also has a huge problem with the gaps between rich and poor. Of it's 5m citizens just 340 own 58% of the country's land. The division of wealth far exceeds most Western democracies.
Of course one of the biggest losers south of the border will be the Labour Party. Of the 59 Scottish MP’s that do reside in Westminster, 41 belong to the Labour Party, 11 Lib Dems, 6 from the SNP and 1 Tory MP will effectively lose their seats. It could mean that the Tories would not need the Lib Dems anymore to form a coalition govt.
From a personal point of view I've not met a single Scotsman (or lady) that is for independence. Admittedly most of them live south of the border but even if you look at the opinion polls it seems Salmond's desire is doomed. The English should have a say though IMO.
I must say that I'm a little proud of EGA's (unsubstantiated) figures. Nice to be top of a few leagues. Might have mentioned a few of the more positive leagues such as Education or contribution to armed forces personnel, but hey-ho.
Regrettably the answer to the muddle that is the governance of the UK is along the lines Daggs suggests. Politicians don't want it as it threatens their sense of security.
I'm sure I've met this bloke before:
Correct. Disingenuous the way the SNP use the stats. Sums them up really. Happy to drop the 10bn pa it costs us.
Irrespective of the numbers I don't think it adds up ... at least the disingenuous "devo-max" option is no longer on the table...hopefully the Scottish electorate will see sense and kick this one into touch
Thought I heard that somewhere, I might dreaming though