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English football's ills a metaphor for the economy

PragueAddickPragueAddick
in Other Football and Sports
That's Will Hutton's case in this article, which contrasts the EPL approach with that of the Bundesliga; and uses this a metaphor for the UK vs Germany. I don't much like Will Hutton's writing style, despite agreeing with a lot of his views, but it is especially chilling when he focuses on Birmingham City as an example. In the BTL comments a Blues fan has this to say:

"I am a Birmingham City fan, and it has been extraordinary and terrifying to see what has happened to my club, almost numbingly surreal, because it seems like it must be a crime, but apparently it isn't. It's like standing around watching your community centre being stripped to the brick, and the police telling you it's all OK, because the thieves bought it with imaginary money, which the club and you now have to pay them back. It is literally like a bad dream.
We entertain ourselves by trying to imagine what you would have to do to fail the "fit and proper person" test. We haven't come up with anything yet."

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    AlgarveaddickAlgarveaddick
    See what you mean about his style R. Bloody awful, but yes the sentiments are spot on. I now await the response of the usual suspects telling us greed is good and we would all take the money and run if we were given the chance...
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    Oggy RedOggy Red
    We've got toilets in the ground to renovate, Algarve.

    ;o)
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    stilladdictedstilladdicted
    Seems like the Grauniad is hotting this issue up.
    Prince Charles' friend, possibly dodgy money and Blackpool in this one.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/12/prince-charles-kyrgyzstan-valeri-belokon
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    (1984)(1984)
    Hmm, not so sure about that article, don't really disagree with his sentiments but seems like he's shoehorned the metaphor bit in to suit his case.

    The levereged purchases are well dodgy as is the abiliity to wipe away huge debts by going into admin then carry on with a clean slate and a modest penalty.

    The biggest structural issue in the English game is the fact that wages are completely unsustainable, meaning that even clubs like ours whose spending is pretty modest make huge losses. I don't really see how you can link that to neo liberal globalist policies which cause wage deflation for workers.
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    RonnyjacksonRonnyjackson
    (1984) said:

    Hmm, not so sure about that article, don't really disagree with his sentiments but seems like he's shoehorned the metaphor bit in to suit his case.

    The levereged purchases are well dodgy as is the abiliity to wipe away huge debts by going into admin then carry on with a clean slate and a modest penalty.

    The biggest structural issue in the English game is the fact that wages are completely unsustainable, meaning that even clubs like ours whose spending is pretty modest make huge losses. I don't really see how you can link that to neo liberal globalist policies which cause wage deflation for workers.

    Spot on. Wage competition is killing English clubs.
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    rananegrarananegra
    Thing with the wages is it is (was) a chicken and egg situation. Pay higher wages to get more money in terms of TV revenues. Promoting football, especially the Premier league, was a key part of what made Sky profitable here. Without football, where people are regularly prepared to shell out silly amounts of money, Sky would have struggled to get enough subscribers and might have gone the way of BSB. And the profits and lack of regulation involved in football mean that all sorts of money men just looking for a profit come in, and are allowed to use debt leverage to buy clubs, which makes it even more crazy.

    I don't think there's any going back now short of a major crisis, but I think the German way here is much better.
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    DRAddickDRAddick
    Ronnyjackson said:

    (1984) said:

    Hmm, not so sure about that article, don't really disagree with his sentiments but seems like he's shoehorned the metaphor bit in to suit his case.

    The levereged purchases are well dodgy as is the abiliity to wipe away huge debts by going into admin then carry on with a clean slate and a modest penalty.

    The biggest structural issue in the English game is the fact that wages are completely unsustainable, meaning that even clubs like ours whose spending is pretty modest make huge losses. I don't really see how you can link that to neo liberal globalist policies which cause wage deflation for workers.

    Spot on. Wage competition is killing English clubs.
    I'd argue the wages are as a result of the Premier League and the huge disparity this has created. The League set up and the greedy FA are killing English Clubs.
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    RonnyjacksonRonnyjackson
    DRAddick said:

    Ronnyjackson said:

    (1984) said:

    Hmm, not so sure about that article, don't really disagree with his sentiments but seems like he's shoehorned the metaphor bit in to suit his case.

    The levereged purchases are well dodgy as is the abiliity to wipe away huge debts by going into admin then carry on with a clean slate and a modest penalty.

    The biggest structural issue in the English game is the fact that wages are completely unsustainable, meaning that even clubs like ours whose spending is pretty modest make huge losses. I don't really see how you can link that to neo liberal globalist policies which cause wage deflation for workers.

    Spot on. Wage competition is killing English clubs.
    I'd argue the wages are as a result of the Premier League and the huge disparity this has created. The League set up and the greedy FA are killing English Clubs.
    The league itself? How?
    But doesn't it just take one owner to raise the wages and force others in the market to compete and raise theirs? I think this increased competition is to blame - A team will therefore have to match wages set by other clubs in order to remain at a certain level.
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    Steve DowmanSteve Dowman
    Cant quite see the metaphor between football and the economy to be honest, maybe in 2008 it might have been true.

    but wages are killing the game, do they have a wage cap in Germany does anyone know?
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    DRAddickDRAddick
    edited January 2013
    Ronnyjackson said:

    DRAddick said:

    Ronnyjackson said:

    (1984) said:

    Hmm, not so sure about that article, don't really disagree with his sentiments but seems like he's shoehorned the metaphor bit in to suit his case.

    The levereged purchases are well dodgy as is the abiliity to wipe away huge debts by going into admin then carry on with a clean slate and a modest penalty.

    The biggest structural issue in the English game is the fact that wages are completely unsustainable, meaning that even clubs like ours whose spending is pretty modest make huge losses. I don't really see how you can link that to neo liberal globalist policies which cause wage deflation for workers.

    Spot on. Wage competition is killing English clubs.
    I'd argue the wages are as a result of the Premier League and the huge disparity this has created. The League set up and the greedy FA are killing English Clubs.
    The league itself? How?
    But doesn't it just take one owner to raise the wages and force others in the market to compete and raise theirs? I think this increased competition is to blame - A team will therefore have to match wages set by other clubs in order to remain at a certain level.
    I meant to add Sky in there as well. The PL was set up to rebrand English football and make money, pure and simple. The disparity in the earnings in that league compared to the rest means relegation, or the strive to reach it, creates huge problems for clubs like ourselves. Before relegation wasn't as big a problem financially for clubs as their main income was gate receipts and sponsorship as oppossed to TV money so fluctuations weren't as great (in general!). Add to that the vast money now for qualifying for the Champions League and certain clubs are now pretty much reliant on finishing in the top four or having a sugar daddy or they have big problems.

    Clubs are basically now forced to spend big to either reach the PL/CL or to stay in it, and it has to be quick time as apposed to 5-10 years gradual building. Your right about about matching wages. The reality of market forces means that wages increase with the need to get and keep the best players possible and everyone's forced to overspend to compete with everyone else overspending.
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    RonnyjacksonRonnyjackson
    DRAddick said:

    Ronnyjackson said:

    DRAddick said:

    Ronnyjackson said:

    (1984) said:

    Hmm, not so sure about that article, don't really disagree with his sentiments but seems like he's shoehorned the metaphor bit in to suit his case.

    The levereged purchases are well dodgy as is the abiliity to wipe away huge debts by going into admin then carry on with a clean slate and a modest penalty.

    The biggest structural issue in the English game is the fact that wages are completely unsustainable, meaning that even clubs like ours whose spending is pretty modest make huge losses. I don't really see how you can link that to neo liberal globalist policies which cause wage deflation for workers.

    Spot on. Wage competition is killing English clubs.
    I'd argue the wages are as a result of the Premier League and the huge disparity this has created. The League set up and the greedy FA are killing English Clubs.
    The league itself? How?
    But doesn't it just take one owner to raise the wages and force others in the market to compete and raise theirs? I think this increased competition is to blame - A team will therefore have to match wages set by other clubs in order to remain at a certain level.
    I meant to add Sky in there as well. The PL was set up to rebrand English football and make money, pure and simple. The disparity in the earnings in that league compared to the rest means relegation, or the strive to reach it, creates huge problems for clubs like ourselves. Before relegation wasn't as big a problem financially for clubs as their main income was gate receipts and sponsorship as oppossed to TV money so fluctuations weren't as great (in general!). Add to that the vast money now for qualifying for the Champions League and certain clubs are now pretty much reliant on finishing in the top four or having a sugar daddy or they have big problems.

    Clubs are basically now forced to spend big to either reach the PL/CL or to stay in it, and it has to be quick time as apposed to 5-10 years gradual building. Your right about about matching wages. The reality of market forces means that wages increase with the need to get and keep the best players possible and everyone's forced to overspend to compete with everyone else overspending.
    Yeah great point. Im a boy of the premier league era so wasn't so aware of the rebranding aspect.
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    seriously_redseriously_red
    The next issue of CASTrust news should have something about German football finances and governance as well as something on Championship finances over here. Deloitte and Touche release a report every year but they are looking at £600 for a copy! Hopefully negotiate a discount for your friendly trust and they can give you a summary of the 2010/11 season. Last season should be available in May so we can all see typical numbers at this level...
    Financial fair play is coming in soon but who knows what teeth it will have in trying to reduce the annual losses at clubs?
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    ColinTatColinTat
    I'm not sure that Birmingham are the right example. Who in the right mind would ever take over Birmingham, in an LBO, to make serious amounts of money? Only Arsenal, Man U, and Liverpool offer that with possibly West Ham's imminent stadium move able to earn you a tidy profit if you bought recently. Birmingham are de-leveraging because they are royally fooked. They lived beyond their means for years, but the Gollivans at least astutely managed their risks. I'd love to see an economy and football structure taking the best from Germany.

    Past all the general claptrap, it'd be interesting to see whether football is a net benefit with regards to the balance of trade. Whilst money goes abroad for transfers, huge amounts come on sure from Sheik Mansour and Abrahamovich. Such a complex calculation would be hard to do, but quite enlightening. Of course when eventually all these clubs go bankrupt, we'll be paying for huge amounts of tax that fell behind.
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    PragueAddickPragueAddick
    Steve Dowman said:

    Cant quite see the metaphor between football and the economy to be honest, maybe in 2008 it might have been true.


    but wages are killing the game, do they have a wage cap in Germany does anyone know?

    I'm looking into it, but I think they don't. But as all but two clubs are majority owned by fans, there is natural German conservatism about their budgets. The wages have been much lower too, but the TV money is increasing so it will be interesting to see the effect. But the TV money is also shared out more equally and across two divisions.
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    RonnyjacksonRonnyjackson
    PragueAddick said:

    Steve Dowman said:

    Cant quite see the metaphor between football and the economy to be honest, maybe in 2008 it might have been true.


    but wages are killing the game, do they have a wage cap in Germany does anyone know?

    I'm looking into it, but I think they don't. But as all but two clubs are majority owned by fans, there is natural German conservatism about their budgets. The wages have been much lower too, but the TV money is increasing so it will be interesting to see the effect. But the TV money is also shared out more equally and across two divisions.
    I have read that Robben is on around 5 million a year. I would assume he was one of highest paid players.
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    AlgarveaddickAlgarveaddick
    ColinTat said:

    I'm not sure that Birmingham are the right example. Who in the right mind would ever take over Birmingham, in an LBO, to make serious amounts of money? Only Arsenal, Man U, and Liverpool offer that with possibly West Ham's imminent stadium move able to earn you a tidy profit if you bought recently. Birmingham are de-leveraging because they are royally fooked. They lived beyond their means for years, but the Gollivans at least astutely managed their risks. I'd love to see an economy and football structure taking the best from Germany.

    Past all the general claptrap, it'd be interesting to see whether football is a net benefit with regards to the balance of trade. Whilst money goes abroad for transfers, huge amounts come on sure from Sheik Mansour and Abrahamovich. Such a complex calculation would be hard to do, but quite enlightening. Of course when eventually all these clubs go bankrupt, we'll be paying for huge amounts of tax that fell behind.

    Surely that is the point? Birmingham is the perfect place to take over and then milk dry for a short term gain if you are a shameless profiteer, as championed in the modern world?
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