Have to say I agree with Prague for questioning the kick off time. If anything, I imagine it increased the amount of drunken people there as it gave them less time to sleep off the booze from the night before, well that was definantly the case with me. I don't see why people have a problem with Prague doing this and coming back today and giving us the answer he got.
Bearing in mind that the FF meeting arranged for Tues 5th Feb may be somewhat governed by the introduction of Steve Bradshaw & Michael Slater into the group, I am happy to put this item for discussion on that evening's agenda.
I discovered before Christmas that it was, generally, "on police advice". Since it was the only game in the division to be so advised, and since I seem to have forgotten all the mass punch-ups and bad behaviour at previous games against Watford, I decided to use the Freedom of Information law to force plod to give more details. Today I finally got an answer of sorts.
You can read the full correspondence here. But the key passage is this:
Following enquiries within the Constabulary, I have been advised that fixtures were published on the 18th June 2012 following a meeting between Club representatives (Head of Operations and Safety Officer) and Police to discuss the initial categorisation of each fixture.
The moving of the kick off time to 1300hrs was agreed at this meeting as a control measure to minimise the potential risk of disorder and anti-social behaviour and was subsequently agreed to by the opposing club and Football League.
There are no minutes of these discussions; therefore there is no information recorded or held by the Constabulary.
The obvious question is; what risk? Looking at the overall records of the two clubs, I'd submit that it's as close to zero as a fixture in this division could be. Yet they got away with this, and Charlton agreed with it. Nobody in this process asked the customers how they feel about a game on New Years Day starting at 13.00.
Its not the worst example that has happened, nor are the police the only villains. But somehow we have to reassert ourselves as the customers who pay for both professional football and the police, and ensure that our voice is heard and remind both bodies that we are customers/taxpayers, and not primarily sources of "anti-social behaviour"
Fuck me you must be bored at work to have done this. And to think you wasted tax payers money to get plod to respond to this. And you don't even live in this country!!,Grrrrrrrrrr!
Overall, I feel strongly that " it's 3.00 for a reason". It's in between most people's meal times, and gives normal people time to meet up and have a beer before the game. I also think that part of the fun is finding out how all the other scores are turning out at the same time. I remember that Yeovil away last season was richly enhanced when we discovered that Massive had snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. There has been too much messing with fixture times. The police are not the only culprits as I said, and sometimes they will have a reason - even though I doubt it makes as much difference as they would claim. But in this case....having seen their answer, I'm convinced they made it 1.00 only to suit themselves, to get home earlier. I don't think they should be allowed such lazy decisions. If they know they are being watched, they might think twice about doing it again.
Also cant see what the big problem is.Surely we (and the police) have bigger fish to fry. 1 o'clock kick-off , Watford is prob 2 hours max (even with traffic) from the Valley - get up at 11 and you get to see the game , so what?, i'm up at 6.30 every day. Next thread.
You should write in and ask why the Millwall game has been moved to 12:30? I can imagine you will get a similar answer.
There is at least the possibility of trouble at that game (Charlton Palace certainly had some aggro outside), whereas Watford Charlton has no historical precedent to justify shifting the kick off time forward, as there is no rivalry between the clubs! Indeed, if you go by this board, there's far more chance of 'aggro' when we play the Massives on Saturday!
There has been trouble at Watford away before,but it was between Charlton fans and police at the station. It was in the year we got relegated from the prem I think,maybe this had something to do with the police's reasoning?
In the real world, Charlton had no say in this. As soon as the police get involved that's the end of it. The decision would have been relayed to Chris Parkes, referred ot Chris Powell, and may not even have got as far as The Valley. Even if it did and Steve Kavanagh had objected, the League would over-rule.
My guess is that Hertfordshire police are a bit clueless regarding football. It only takes one senior officer without requisite experience or sufficient common sense and these decisions are set in stone, because it's just not worth anyone's while taking on the police.
I wouldn't apply that to Millwall at The Valley, by the way, because that seems a sensible decision to me. But moving Charlton at Watford because of the risk of disorder is laughable.
For what it's worth, I preferred the 1pm k/o, more time to do stuff after on the day before going back to work, but I appreciate I'm a minority. I think CAFC has bigger things to worry about and don't know what value is added by talking about it at forthcoming meetings. But fair play for having a go about things you care about.
You should write in and ask why the Millwall game has been moved to 12:30? I can imagine you will get a similar answer.
There is at least the possibility of trouble at that game (Charlton Palace certainly had some aggro outside), whereas Watford Charlton has no historical precedent to justify shifting the kick off time forward, as there is no rivalry between the clubs! Indeed, if you go by this board, there's far more chance of 'aggro' when we play the Massives on Saturday!
EVERY football match has the potential for trouble, you dont have to have had previous with any club, admittedly, more likely with palarse and the spanners due to the amount of punters being up for it that would be in attendance, but every team has a "firm" size and notoriety varies in size obviously. 5-10 Charlton firm could quite easily bump into 5-10 Watford firm on the day, seen it on smaller scales many times over the years and nobody at the time time heard about it other than those involved and maybe the OB.
Still, strange decision, more to do with getting the game out of the way early and to suit all at both clubs on the playing and admin sides, and the town quiet as early as possible when resources are stretched due to xmas/new years leave amongst Herts plod methinks.
Have to say I agree with Prague for questioning the kick off time. If anything, I imagine it increased the amount of drunken people there as it gave them less time to sleep off the booze from the night before, well that was definantly the case with me. I don't see why people have a problem with Prague doing this and coming back today and giving us the answer he got.
I agree, with people drinking into the early hours for New Year, how many people might still be over the limit when they get into their cars at 11am...
Overall, I feel strongly that " it's 3.00 for a reason". It's in between most people's meal times, and gives normal people time to meet up and have a beer before the game. I also think that part of the fun is finding out how all the other scores are turning out at the same time. I remember that Yeovil away last season was richly enhanced when we discovered that Massive had snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. There has been too much messing with fixture times. The police are not the only culprits as I said, and sometimes they will have a reason - even though I doubt it makes as much difference as they would claim. But in this case....having seen their answer, I'm convinced they made it 1.00 only to suit themselves, to get home earlier. I don't think they should be allowed such lazy decisions. If they know they are being watched, they might think twice about doing it again.
Agreed. Thank you for posting.
Wee bit precious for those on a message board to take digs at others as having too much time on their hands.
For what it's worth, I preferred the 1pm k/o, more time to do stuff after on the day before going back to work, but I appreciate I'm a minority. I think CAFC has bigger things to worry about and don't know what value is added by talking about it at forthcoming meetings. But fair play for having a go about things you care about.
I agree with you, I don't think we should bring it up, especially as the accounts are out, and as Airman explains, the club are on a loser going up against the police. I really posted it to show how easy it is for us to make the police explain themselves. It's something for a powerful national supporters group to take up. I'm not sure that one exists.
I appreciate the effort that Prague has gone to. He is quite right about the movement of times for KO. Unless there is an issue of public disorder, which in this case seems absurd, as others have posted. People seem to be saying does it really matter, well that depends on a number of factors, but what was the reason?.... the caprice whims of a copper who is probably getting paid overtime anyway?. While MP's are arguing about the cost of clubs not paying the full amount for policing at clubs ( which in my opinion they should do) The police should not be changing the traditional KO times, or sky tv, or anyone else unless there is a valid reason, not an excuse. A while back I gave up my premiership tickets for my 2 sons as they played on a Sunday, and we had so many Sunday KO's it became very difficult to rush back and see the games. My loss no doubt...........
I discovered before Christmas that it was, generally, "on police advice". Since it was the only game in the division to be so advised, and since I seem to have forgotten all the mass punch-ups and bad behaviour at previous games against Watford, I decided to use the Freedom of Information law to force plod to give more details. Today I finally got an answer of sorts.
You can read the full correspondence here. But the key passage is this:
Following enquiries within the Constabulary, I have been advised that fixtures were published on the 18th June 2012 following a meeting between Club representatives (Head of Operations and Safety Officer) and Police to discuss the initial categorisation of each fixture.
The moving of the kick off time to 1300hrs was agreed at this meeting as a control measure to minimise the potential risk of disorder and anti-social behaviour and was subsequently agreed to by the opposing club and Football League.
There are no minutes of these discussions; therefore there is no information recorded or held by the Constabulary.
The obvious question is; what risk? Looking at the overall records of the two clubs, I'd submit that it's as close to zero as a fixture in this division could be. Yet they got away with this, and Charlton agreed with it. Nobody in this process asked the customers how they feel about a game on New Years Day starting at 13.00.
Its not the worst example that has happened, nor are the police the only villains. But somehow we have to reassert ourselves as the customers who pay for both professional football and the police, and ensure that our voice is heard and remind both bodies that we are customers/taxpayers, and not primarily sources of "anti-social behaviour"
Fuck me you must be bored at work to have done this. And to think you wasted tax payers money to get plod to respond to this. And you don't even live in this country!!,Grrrrrrrrrr!
You should write in and ask why the Millwall game has been moved to 12:30? I can imagine you will get a similar answer.
There is at least the possibility of trouble at that game (Charlton Palace certainly had some aggro outside), whereas Watford Charlton has no historical precedent to justify shifting the kick off time forward, as there is no rivalry between the clubs! Indeed, if you go by this board, there's far more chance of 'aggro' when we play the Massives on Saturday!
EVERY football match has the potential for trouble, you dont have to have had previous with any club, admittedly, more likely with palarse and the spanners due to the amount of punters being up for it that would be in attendance, but every team has a "firm" size and notoriety varies in size obviously. 5-10 Charlton firm could quite easily bump into 5-10 Watford firm on the day, seen it on smaller scales many times over the years and nobody at the time time heard about it other than those involved and maybe the OB.
Still, strange decision, more to do with getting the game out of the way early and to suit all at both clubs on the playing and admin sides, and the town quiet as early as possible when resources are stretched due to xmas/new years leave amongst Herts plod methinks.
I think DA9 has hit the nail on the head here but I think the decision not so strange after the shenanigans at the den and the actions of the RD of late. Perhaps we're seen as not so nice Charlton now?
You should write in and ask why the Millwall game has been moved to 12:30? I can imagine you will get a similar answer.
There is at least the possibility of trouble at that game (Charlton Palace certainly had some aggro outside), whereas Watford Charlton has no historical precedent to justify shifting the kick off time forward, as there is no rivalry between the clubs! Indeed, if you go by this board, there's far more chance of 'aggro' when we play the Massives on Saturday!
EVERY football match has the potential for trouble, you dont have to have had previous with any club, admittedly, more likely with palarse and the spanners due to the amount of punters being up for it that would be in attendance, but every team has a "firm" size and notoriety varies in size obviously. 5-10 Charlton firm could quite easily bump into 5-10 Watford firm on the day, seen it on smaller scales many times over the years and nobody at the time time heard about it other than those involved and maybe the OB.
Still, strange decision, more to do with getting the game out of the way early and to suit all at both clubs on the playing and admin sides, and the town quiet as early as possible when resources are stretched due to xmas/new years leave amongst Herts plod methinks.
I think DA9 has hit the nail on the head here but I think the decision not so strange after the shenanigans at the den and the actions of the RD of late. Perhaps we're seen as not so nice Charlton now?
well possibly, but the decision- we now learn - was taken back in June so the Den/RD had nothing to do with it. I think Airman's right, this particular force is clueless about football, probably because Watford sees little trouble. I also think they found a nice excuse to get home on time on NYD.
You should write in and ask why the Millwall game has been moved to 12:30? I can imagine you will get a similar answer.
There is at least the possibility of trouble at that game (Charlton Palace certainly had some aggro outside), whereas Watford Charlton has no historical precedent to justify shifting the kick off time forward, as there is no rivalry between the clubs! Indeed, if you go by this board, there's far more chance of 'aggro' when we play the Massives on Saturday!
EVERY football match has the potential for trouble, you dont have to have had previous with any club, admittedly, more likely with palarse and the spanners due to the amount of punters being up for it that would be in attendance, but every team has a "firm" size and notoriety varies in size obviously. 5-10 Charlton firm could quite easily bump into 5-10 Watford firm on the day, seen it on smaller scales many times over the years and nobody at the time time heard about it other than those involved and maybe the OB.
Still, strange decision, more to do with getting the game out of the way early and to suit all at both clubs on the playing and admin sides, and the town quiet as early as possible when resources are stretched due to xmas/new years leave amongst Herts plod methinks.
I think DA9 has hit the nail on the head here but I think the decision not so strange after the shenanigans at the den and the actions of the RD of late. Perhaps we're seen as not so nice Charlton now?
You should write in and ask why the Millwall game has been moved to 12:30? I can imagine you will get a similar answer.
There is at least the possibility of trouble at that game (Charlton Palace certainly had some aggro outside), whereas Watford Charlton has no historical precedent to justify shifting the kick off time forward, as there is no rivalry between the clubs! Indeed, if you go by this board, there's far more chance of 'aggro' when we play the Massives on Saturday!
EVERY football match has the potential for trouble, you dont have to have had previous with any club, admittedly, more likely with palarse and the spanners due to the amount of punters being up for it that would be in attendance, but every team has a "firm" size and notoriety varies in size obviously. 5-10 Charlton firm could quite easily bump into 5-10 Watford firm on the day, seen it on smaller scales many times over the years and nobody at the time time heard about it other than those involved and maybe the OB.
Still, strange decision, more to do with getting the game out of the way early and to suit all at both clubs on the playing and admin sides, and the town quiet as early as possible when resources are stretched due to xmas/new years leave amongst Herts plod methinks.
I think DA9 has hit the nail on the head here but I think the decision not so strange after the shenanigans at the den and the actions of the RD of late. Perhaps we're seen as not so nice Charlton now?
well possibly, but the decision- we now learn - was taken back in June so the Den/RD had nothing to do with it. I think Airman's right, this particular force is clueless about football, probably because Watford sees little trouble. I also think they found a nice excuse to get home on time on NYD.
My point exactly, suits all, players, management, club staff, and Herts OB, nowt to do with trouble or the possibility of it, as stated above, every game has the potential for trouble, whatever the scale.
Comments
Sorry, I was wrong.
Next thread.
My guess is that Hertfordshire police are a bit clueless regarding football. It only takes one senior officer without requisite experience or sufficient common sense and these decisions are set in stone, because it's just not worth anyone's while taking on the police.
I wouldn't apply that to Millwall at The Valley, by the way, because that seems a sensible decision to me. But moving Charlton at Watford because of the risk of disorder is laughable.
Still, strange decision, more to do with getting the game out of the way early and to suit all at both clubs on the playing and admin sides, and the town quiet as early as possible when resources are stretched due to xmas/new years leave amongst Herts plod methinks.
Wee bit precious for those on a message board to take digs at others as having too much time on their hands.
:-)
Perhaps we're seen as not so nice Charlton now?
Normally I appreciate 3pm on a saturday but the early Watford NYD kick off suited me on the day.