When I first used HS1 nearly 3 years ago it was empty, now it's packed. I struggle to get a seat from Ebbsfleet in the morning and struggle at night if I get on at Stratford.
The problem with it is the price, I pay a premium to use it, if I worked in the city I think I'd still use the cattle wagons into Cannon Street, but as I work further north it makes sense and gives me a better work/life balance, in other words I save about 4 hours travelling each week so at the moment I'm prepared to pay the extra.
HS2 is a great idea but it's not going to be built quickly enough, whilst the rest if Europe will have a mass Highspeed network (with decent ticket prices) we'll still be building it.
Knowing Britain, it'll be available at a premium price so it will probably be beyond affordability for most.
Money is relatively cheap at the moment and this is the time to plan and build investment projects that will have a long life. It is unfortunate that we will have less discretion over choosing where raw materials etc are sourced but even so there will be some lift. One issue. I'm personally fine about it, but I suspect it will add to London's primacy as yet again the route is based on times to/from London. A braver step would be speeding up times between, say, Manchester and Newcastle.
And it pisses off all those Tories whose constituencies it goes through which is lovely.
Whenever you improve the infrastructure of a country that country's economy grows. If we don't invest now, we're going to be really far behind the rest of the world.
I'd agree with you on most cases, but not this. What has Ebbsfleet done for North Kent? You can get to Kings Cross in 26 minutes, but who wants to go there?
Whenever I go on the HS1 it's usually pretty full, and that's off peak, so I imagine it is full during peak times. The problem is it's probably done more for businesses in and around Kings Cross than it has for ones in NW Kent. However, there's a chance that in a couple of years time I will need to set up a UK office for a US company, and I will be pushing for it to be near Ebbsfleet, that way you're 20 mins from central London and 1hr from Central Paris. Once cross rail is completed it'll also be easy to get to Heathrow and the M4 corridor. All at a fraction of the costs of renting office space in central London.
And the proposed Paramount Park, within throwing distance of Ebssfleet station, that will generate loads of train passengers, and boost business in the area.
I don't have much faith in Paramount Park having much impact on local business, still waiting for the massive influx of business from Ebbsfleet, the Olympics and the biggest Gudwara in Europe, that was promised when those projects were proposed.
One thing we should ask questions about is how long it takes to build the damn thing. I am fairly sure the TGV lines didnt take this long. As for the Chinese, they build huge stretches in 3-4 years although there are worries about how safe they are. If we want to question the budget and value for money, that's where I'd start.
The lack of planning restrictions in China are a great help in building things quickly, whereas in our country we go to the other extreme in terms in individual democracy in planning matters!
One thing we should ask questions about is how long it takes to build the damn thing. I am fairly sure the TGV lines didnt take this long. As for the Chinese, they build huge stretches in 3-4 years although there are worries about how safe they are. If we want to question the budget and value for money, that's where I'd start.
The lack of planning restrictions in China are a great help in building things quickly, whereas in our country we go to the other extreme in terms in individual democracy in planning matters!
In the words of Talking Heads, China are building roads to nowhere, unnecessary bridges and sky scrapers that will never be filled. We need to improve the transport infrastructure in this country.
One thing we should ask questions about is how long it takes to build the damn thing. I am fairly sure the TGV lines didnt take this long. As for the Chinese, they build huge stretches in 3-4 years although there are worries about how safe they are. If we want to question the budget and value for money, that's where I'd start.
The lack of planning restrictions in China are a great help in building things quickly, whereas in our country we go to the other extreme in terms in individual democracy in planning matters!
Because England is a tiny dot compared to China!
We're also not allowed to tell entire villages to relocate!
I've been surprised to read that some railway experts (people who would support investment in railways) are negative towards HS2. I think the general argument is that such a small crowded country needs more high capacity trains travelling reasonably fast (say 140mph). So you might spend the money on electrifying lines to the West (those HSTs are 40 year old diesels), linking up Heathrow to the existing lines, and upgrading lines to carry more trains. The big snag though is that the West Coast line was upgraded in the 90s, it was ten years of disruption, but it still wasn't good enough. For example, one way to get more capacity is to have double decker trains. Some French TGVs are double deckers. Unfortunately our lines are not able to handle them. The tunnels and bridges are too small for them. They should have dealt with that as part of the upgrade then. We never seem to have a vision for transport, or a way to make that vision a reality quickly. I'm pretty sure CrossRail goes back to 1970.
I don't accept the argument that HS2 will spread prosperity to other parts of the country, I think it will make us even more London centric. There will be benefit to towns with a station but I think that will be at the expense of areas without rather than dispersal from London.
At the very least they should have started in the North, ideally they should have concentrated on linking Nothern areas to each other and Birmingham plus east-west connections which are virtually non-existant away from the M4 corridor.
The idea in fact goes back to the war in fact. A bill failed in Parliament in the early 1990s for various reasons.
There's a huge variety in how effeciently transport schemes are delivered in this country. The various DLR schemes have generally been delivered on time and budget, while schemes such as the East London Line extension and Thameslink 2000 (lol) have not. Having worked on many of them at the consenting phase, I think that they are getting better at them - Crossrail is going very well at the moment in terms of its schedule.
You really can't compare China or even France with the UK in terms of speed of delivery. We believe in consultation and in property rights. France does only to a limited extent and China not at all. When we took a similar approach back in the 50s and 60s we got a lot of crap housing blocks and revolting town centres built quickly. On the whole, I'd rather have the delay.
The idea in fact goes back to the war in fact. A bill failed in Parliament in the early 1990s for various reasons.
There's a huge variety in how effeciently transport schemes are delivered in this country. The various DLR schemes have generally been delivered on time and budget, while schemes such as the East London Line extension and Thameslink 2000 (lol) have not. Having worked on many of them at the consenting phase, I think that they are getting better at them - Crossrail is going very well at the moment in terms of its schedule.
You really can't compare China or even France with the UK in terms of speed of delivery. We believe in consultation and in property rights. France does only to a limited extent and China not at all. When we took a similar approach back in the 50s and 60s we got a lot of crap housing blocks and revolting town centres built quickly. On the whole, I'd rather have the delay.
Of course, back in Victorian times we were much more like the Chinese are now, massive ambitious contructions projects, and little concern for whoever got in the way, hence the Central London railway lines bulldozed though urban areas. Loads of historic coaching inns around London Bridge got swallowed up by the railway developments.
One thing we should ask questions about is how long it takes to build the damn thing. I am fairly sure the TGV lines didnt take this long. As for the Chinese, they build huge stretches in 3-4 years although there are worries about how safe they are. If we want to question the budget and value for money, that's where I'd start.
Starting in China would be a pain and it would take ages to get to Birmingham - can't see the benefit personally.
Loads of historic coaching inns around London Bridge got swallowed up by the railway developments.
They would never have survived the Smoking Ban, Alcohol Duty, Supermarket deals and booze cruises anyway!
Talking of booze cruises, does anyone still do them? Are there those big "English"warehouses still in Calais? I remember getting cases of proper Stella, 24 cans for £9 back in the 90's. Costcutters etc must get them from somewhere?
The idea in fact goes back to the war in fact. A bill failed in Parliament in the early 1990s for various reasons.
There's a huge variety in how effeciently transport schemes are delivered in this country. The various DLR schemes have generally been delivered on time and budget, while schemes such as the East London Line extension and Thameslink 2000 (lol) have not. Having worked on many of them at the consenting phase, I think that they are getting better at them - Crossrail is going very well at the moment in terms of its schedule.
You really can't compare China or even France with the UK in terms of speed of delivery. We believe in consultation and in property rights. France does only to a limited extent and China not at all. When we took a similar approach back in the 50s and 60s we got a lot of crap housing blocks and revolting town centres built quickly. On the whole, I'd rather have the delay.
Jints
You obviously have specialist knowledge of the area. If I understand correctly, you believe that the main reason we are so slow is because we are more careful in the 'consent' stage. Do you believe that once we get building, we are just as quick as the French? It does not look that way to me. The West Coast upgrade took ten years. It also seems to me that Crossrail has taken ages. I suppose the comparison to Crossrail would be the Paris RER's. There are miles and miles of them, several different lines. But that's just a layman's view. Would be interested in yours.
The rail system in Great Britain is not a lot better than third world. It is crying out for investment and modern technology. The real question should be why was this not started twenty years ago. By the time we get high speed trains the French will have had theirs for nigh on half a century.
I watched something on tv recently where the Chinese threw up an allegedly) earth quake proof 30 story tower block inside two weeks. Yes you read that right, that’s 14 days working around the clock.
In the meantime a road near me has been closed to traffic for around 9 months now in order to replace a 10 foot section of sewer main. I kid you not.
Ignoring the issue of planning and paying for the thing how on earth are we ever going to deliver it in anything approaching a reasonable timeframe or on budget???
Loving the praise for the French train network. Yes, the few trains between major cities travel quickly - very quickly, but they are so unreliable to use on a daily basis. The connections to more outlying towns and villages are shambolic - for a country where far more people live outside of cities than here. My girlfriend and her family who had worked on the rails for many years, no longer use them, and say that the English system is much better. Grass is always greener.
In this case, money would be better spent on better connections from Birmingham upwards.
As much as this will annoy many on here we probably need more Eastern Europeans over here that, actually, want to work for their money as opposed to the lazy British public that would rather doss about all day and do as little as possible.
When ever I walk (or drive) past workmen, anywhere, there is always one (or more) having a cigarette, on the phone or eating a sandwich. Any time of the day there is always a good reason to put down tools and have a break.
I don't know what the rest of the world is like but until we learn to pull our fingers out and do a decent days work we are never going to be able to compete with other countries.
I don't know whether it will be a good thing or not. Listening to the "experts" on the radio, I don't believe anyone really knows, there are so many arguments and counter arguments. I was interested in the professor (sorry, can't remember his name) they had on Radio 4 though who was saying that the bigger cities that get terminals like Birmingham and Manchester are likely to benefit whereas their smaller neighbours like Wolverhampton or Bolton are likely to suffer. So it might not ameliorate disparities between regions but instead make them worse within regions.
Loving the praise for the French train network. Yes, the few trains between major cities travel quickly - very quickly, but they are so unreliable to use on a daily basis. The connections to more outlying towns and villages are shambolic - for a country where far more people live outside of cities than here. My girlfriend and her family who had worked on the rails for many years, no longer use them, and say that the English system is much better. Grass is always greener.
In this case, money would be better spent on better connections from Birmingham upwards.
I have heard comments like that about France, I must admit. (although rarely going as far as saying the British model is better. Prices, for a start) Maybe the better model is Germany then. Definitely never heard that slagged off. Very fast, but also frequent, and good quality and value even at local level.
Loving the praise for the French train network. Yes, the few trains between major cities travel quickly - very quickly, but they are so unreliable to use on a daily basis. The connections to more outlying towns and villages are shambolic - for a country where far more people live outside of cities than here. My girlfriend and her family who had worked on the rails for many years, no longer use them, and say that the English system is much better. Grass is always greener.
In this case, money would be better spent on better connections from Birmingham upwards.
I have heard comments like that about France, I must admit. (although rarely going as far as saying the British model is better. Prices, for a start) Maybe the better model is Germany then. Definitely never heard that slagged off. Very fast, but also frequent, and good quality and value even at local level.
Loving the praise for the French train network. Yes, the few trains between major cities travel quickly - very quickly, but they are so unreliable to use on a daily basis. The connections to more outlying towns and villages are shambolic - for a country where far more people live outside of cities than here. My girlfriend and her family who had worked on the rails for many years, no longer use them, and say that the English system is much better. Grass is always greener.
In this case, money would be better spent on better connections from Birmingham upwards.
I have heard comments like that about France, I must admit. (although rarely going as far as saying the British model is better. Prices, for a start) Maybe the better model is Germany then. Definitely never heard that slagged off. Very fast, but also frequent, and good quality and value even at local level.
Best trains I've been on in Europe are Swiss.
Perhaps because they are not in the EU :-)
:-)
You should hear my Swedish buddy, a businessman living in Norway, slagging off the trains there
Loving the praise for the French train network. Yes, the few trains between major cities travel quickly - very quickly, but they are so unreliable to use on a daily basis. The connections to more outlying towns and villages are shambolic - for a country where far more people live outside of cities than here. My girlfriend and her family who had worked on the rails for many years, no longer use them, and say that the English system is much better. Grass is always greener.
In this case, money would be better spent on better connections from Birmingham upwards.
I have heard comments like that about France, I must admit. (although rarely going as far as saying the British model is better. Prices, for a start) Maybe the better model is Germany then. Definitely never heard that slagged off. Very fast, but also frequent, and good quality and value even at local level.
Best trains I've been on in Europe are Swiss.
Perhaps because they are not in the EU :-)
My local network, C2C, advertises themselves at being better than the Swiss: fewer cancellations; better punctuality. I hate to tempt fate but they really are very good.
The rail system in Great Britain is not a lot better than third world. It is crying out for investment and modern technology.
The real question should be why was this not started twenty years ago.
The Thatcher led government of the 80s saw the railway system as an anachronism, starved the network of investment - and instead pledged investment for roads.
30 years later we can see the folly of such short sighted policy.
It will be a big corrupt money pit which the Government ministers with their fingers in the right pies will make them selves millions,look how Marples and Beeching screwed the railways to make their companies more profitable! The technology will be foreign,the materials will and the labour will be from eastern europe.Cant see the British worker getting much out of it.Also why is it a series of branches finishing outside the city centres? Where the train wins is they go right in to the city centres where as the airports are outside the cities???? Why cant the money be spent up grading excisting lines and getting freight back on the railway? It will be one almighty cock up but at least it will get on the NIMBY middle England brigades tits!
BFR - no not really, although funding was a concern. To get a Bill of this sort through Parliament it is considered by committee of each House of Parliament. These act like inquiries hearing objections (petitions in the lingo) to the scheme. Tower Hamlet Council, along with a number of other petitioners persuaded a majority of the House of Commons commitee to vote against the Bill. As a result it failed despite having support from both the Tory Government and the Labour opposition (but not the anti-car Lib Dems).
Comments
The problem with it is the price, I pay a premium to use it, if I worked in the city I think I'd still use the cattle wagons into Cannon Street, but as I work further north it makes sense and gives me a better work/life balance, in other words I save about 4 hours travelling each week so at the moment I'm prepared to pay the extra.
HS2 is a great idea but it's not going to be built quickly enough, whilst the rest if Europe will have a mass Highspeed network (with decent ticket prices) we'll still be building it.
Knowing Britain, it'll be available at a premium price so it will probably be beyond affordability for most.
And it pisses off all those Tories whose constituencies it goes through which is lovely.
The big snag though is that the West Coast line was upgraded in the 90s, it was ten years of disruption, but it still wasn't good enough. For example, one way to get more capacity is to have double decker trains. Some French TGVs are double deckers. Unfortunately our lines are not able to handle them. The tunnels and bridges are too small for them. They should have dealt with that as part of the upgrade then.
We never seem to have a vision for transport, or a way to make that vision a reality quickly. I'm pretty sure CrossRail goes back to 1970.
At the very least they should have started in the North, ideally they should have concentrated on linking Nothern areas to each other and Birmingham plus east-west connections which are virtually non-existant away from the M4 corridor.
There's a huge variety in how effeciently transport schemes are delivered in this country. The various DLR schemes have generally been delivered on time and budget, while schemes such as the East London Line extension and Thameslink 2000 (lol) have not. Having worked on many of them at the consenting phase, I think that they are getting better at them - Crossrail is going very well at the moment in terms of its schedule.
You really can't compare China or even France with the UK in terms of speed of delivery. We believe in consultation and in property rights. France does only to a limited extent and China not at all. When we took a similar approach back in the 50s and 60s we got a lot of crap housing blocks and revolting town centres built quickly. On the whole, I'd rather have the delay.
Talking of booze cruises, does anyone still do them? Are there those big "English"warehouses still in Calais? I remember getting cases of proper Stella, 24 cans for £9 back in the 90's. Costcutters etc must get them from somewhere?
You obviously have specialist knowledge of the area. If I understand correctly, you believe that the main reason we are so slow is because we are more careful in the 'consent' stage. Do you believe that once we get building, we are just as quick as the French? It does not look that way to me. The West Coast upgrade took ten years. It also seems to me that Crossrail has taken ages. I suppose the comparison to Crossrail would be the Paris RER's. There are miles and miles of them, several different lines. But that's just a layman's view. Would be interested in yours.
In the meantime a road near me has been closed to traffic for around 9 months now in order to replace a 10 foot section of sewer main. I kid you not.
Ignoring the issue of planning and paying for the thing how on earth are we ever going to deliver it in anything approaching a reasonable timeframe or on budget???
In this case, money would be better spent on better connections from Birmingham upwards.
When ever I walk (or drive) past workmen, anywhere, there is always one (or more) having a cigarette, on the phone or eating a sandwich. Any time of the day there is always a good reason to put down tools and have a break.
I don't know what the rest of the world is like but until we learn to pull our fingers out and do a decent days work we are never going to be able to compete with other countries.
Perhaps because they are not in the EU :-)
You should hear my Swedish buddy, a businessman living in Norway, slagging off the trains there
They're not in the EU either :-)
30 years later we can see the folly of such short sighted policy.
IIRC there was only enough money available to build either Crossrail or the Channel Tunnel and the latter won.