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DRS ! - Love it or hate it ?

I know there is a lot of cricket lovers out there.

I know DRS is not everyones cup of tea,however, i think its a fantastic innovation - something that football could well do with looking at TBH.

Anyway, there was an incident in South Africa v Pakistan test today that opened up a 'loophole' in the way DRS works.

Scenario...

Kallis is given out caught to Ajmal.
Kallis refers it thinking that the umpire gave him out caught (it came direct off the pad too).
Hawyeye shows that he didnt hit it,and therefore decision is to be reversed, however, the replay also shows that it would have been Umpires Call (ie less than half the ball was clipping leg stump) for LBW and gave Kallis out LBW.

The loophole here is that the Ump has given him out caught and yet even though its Umpires call for LBW - there was no Umpires call for LBW in the first place.!

For all you non cricket lovers out there, please dont come on saying ' errrr, crickets boring !!!!' - it just shows the density of oneself.! Dont denigrate - be constructive ! Or at least go out and find out the rules of cricket - probably the best sport in the world.
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Comments

  • I suppose a similar situation in footy would be that we have TV replays that show the ball didn't cross the line but also show that it was stopped from doing so by someone's hand (not the keeper!) and the ref awards a penalty. I wouldn't object to that at all. Shame it will never happen.
  • Rizzo said:

    I suppose a similar situation in footy would be that we have TV replays that show the ball didn't cross the line but also show that it was stopped from doing so by someone's hand (not the keeper!) and the ref awards a penalty. I wouldn't object to that at all. Shame it will never happen.

    Yep - good one.
    Blatters legacy to football ! (oh, sorry, forgot about the magnificent deicison about refs behind the goal).
  • I actually wrote my University dissertation on the DRS in cricket. Fun fun fun...
  • edited February 2013
    "James Dean posters on their wall"
  • I don't think it's a loophole as such.

    If the system says "umpires call" and he didn't originally give the batsman out for LBW, then that decision doesn't get changed. If the system had said "out lbw" then it becomes interesting. LBW has to be appealed for. So if the bowling side haven't appealed then it doesn't matter what DRS says. If they go up for the catch, and it's reviewed, then the only decision that really should come back is caught out, or not caught out.

    It's down to the on-field umpire to get the bowling side to clarify what they are appealing for. There's nothing to stop them saying both, i.e. if he's hit it we've caught him, if he hasn't then he's plum.

    At the end of the day DRS is about getting accurate decisions. No player is going to be hard done by if they're given out LBW when they are plum LBW, no matter what the on-field appeals or calls were.
  • Similar thing happened to Punter, Lords 2009.

    All artificial interference in sport is wrong.
  • edited February 2013
    This could well be a wrong decision 'because of double jeopardy'. Equally it depends on the remit given to the replay umpire.

    If the appeal was for a catch, there was no catch as the ball came from the pad. Presumably the umpire gave Kallis out as he (the umpire) thought that Kallis had touched the ball with his bat. Therefore (to my mind) lbw becomes irrelevant .... UNLESS the original appeal from Ajmal was for lbw. Are 'we' sure that the umpire gave Kallis out caught, in that case m'lud see my opinion above, or is it possible the umpire gave Kallis out lbw ? Does an appeal from the fielding side have to be for a specific reason ? .. When Kallis asked for a review the umpire should ask the replay umpire (in my opinion) to check for a specific reason for or against dismissal, the umpire should ask 'did he touch it' or 'was that lbw' .. as in RFU when the referee asks for 'any reason why I cannot award a try', or he may ask 'was a try scored'. If the reason asked for proves to be incorrect, in this case Kallis appealed against a catch, there was no catch, then (to my mind) hawkeye 'spotting' an lbw should be irrelevant. As I say, it depends on the remit/leeway given to the replay umpire. As you say Mr President, an interesting conundrum
  • edited February 2013
    Good point.
    Suppose could end up with Umpire saying that he's out either LBW or Caught - take your pick, and leave it up to the TMO !
  • Good point.
    Suppose could end up with Umpire saying that he's out either LBW or Caught - take your pick, and leave it up to the TMO !

    that would be the most appropriate question .. BUT then it could mean that umpires become too 'afraid' to decide and leave it all up to the replay man. In my opinion that is not cricket !!
  • Just having a quick read through the rules surrounding appeals there is no indication the bowling side must state what they are appealing for. A simple "howzat" is enough. Therefore the whole question of what are they are appealing for and what should be checked is moot.

    In essence the appealing team are simply asking if the batsman is out or not, and DRS gives us a fuller way to answer that question.

    Technically a batsman can't be given out without an appeal (as per the rules of the game), but will walk when it's obvious (bowled, simple catch, run out by a distance, etc.).
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  • I'm a fan, but as a bowler that could be expected.

    The whole point is that it corrects most of the glaring errors and it has encouraged umpires to give LBWs. Most especially in cases where a batsman pads up up a ball that has pitched/hit outside the line of off-stump. In the past batsmen would shove their pad across with the bat tucked in behind the pad and would be deemed to be not out as they were allegedly playing at the ball. Currently most umpires will let a batsman get away with doing that once or twice, but if they push their luck they are often on their way - a batsman can review the decision but if it's hitting he's on his way. Consequently it is encouraging batsmen to use their bats when playing defensively and has brought back the art of off-spin bowling as the balance between bat and ball is now more equal.
  • As a slight aside, i wasnt able to get tickets for any of the London Ashes Test matches this year (not selected in the ballots) - with prices averaging circa 70 pounds - however, top price for a seat at Newlands tomorrow for this test is 70 RAND (about 5 pounds).
  • errrr, crickets boring !!!!
    ;-)
  • I knew there'd be one :-)
  • ^

    As a slight aside, i wasnt able to get tickets for any of the London Ashes Test matches this year (not selected in the ballots) - with prices averaging circa 70 pounds - however, top price for a seat at Newlands tomorrow for this test is 70 RAND (about 5 pounds).

    Supply and demand. All the time some are prepared to pay sky high prices, the prices will stay sky high. We need an MCG or two. Twickenham, 80,000 + yet still (to my mind) extortionate prices. Even so, you could fill the place twice over for international games & fill Lords five times over for the Ashes but it would be an empty shell 10 months out of 12

  • edited February 2013

    ^

    As a slight aside, i wasnt able to get tickets for any of the London Ashes Test matches this year (not selected in the ballots) - with prices averaging circa 70 pounds - however, top price for a seat at Newlands tomorrow for this test is 70 RAND (about 5 pounds).

    Supply and demand. All the time some are prepared to pay sky high prices, the prices will stay sky high. We need an MCG or two. Twickenham, 80,000 + yet still (to my mind) extortionate prices. Even so, you could fill the place twice over for international games & fill Lords five times over for the Ashes but it would be an empty shell 10 months out of 12

    Maybe a time for a plug-in pitch a la the Kiwis at the Olympics stadium?
  • Overall, I'm a fan as it's more reliable than the alternative and India's position on this is nonsense, but I'm still not altogether confident that the projections of what might have happened, based on Hawkeye, are as reliable as we are given to believe.

    Just before C4 lost the contract to cover Test cricket in 2002, Dermot Reeve did a brilliant piece on how the images are fallible, not least because the cameras used aren't flush on the ground, but raised slightly on stands etc - this alters the perception of things like grounded catches which may look not out, but actually are. The same can be said of the trajectory of marginal lbw decisions. Can't find the actual piece to camera, but this Mark Nicholas piece from then is quite good:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/india/3032659/ICC-take-a-step-too-far.html
  • ^

    As a slight aside, i wasnt able to get tickets for any of the London Ashes Test matches this year (not selected in the ballots) - with prices averaging circa 70 pounds - however, top price for a seat at Newlands tomorrow for this test is 70 RAND (about 5 pounds).

    Supply and demand. All the time some are prepared to pay sky high prices, the prices will stay sky high. We need an MCG or two. Twickenham, 80,000 + yet still (to my mind) extortionate prices. Even so, you could fill the place twice over for international games & fill Lords five times over for the Ashes but it would be an empty shell 10 months out of 12

    Maybe a time for a plug-in pitch a la the Kiwis at the Olympics stadium?
    It could well happen before too long, but I feel, just for 20/20 or 50/50
  • It's umpire's call that confuses things in the first scenario, if the Umpire had said not out, and fielding side had asked for the DRS, then he would have been not out on both fronts!
  • India will change their position on the UDRS when Tendulkar retires...

    Regarding the catches, the camera tends to foreshorten the image making it appear as though the ball has touched the turf before the fielder catches it. Those sort of catches are not necessarily the in the remit of the UDRS as the umpire can request that the third umpire has a butchers at it, he doesn't have to wait until either team requests a review.
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  • Overall, I'm a fan as it's more reliable than the alternative and India's position on this is nonsense, but I'm still not altogether confident that the projections of what might have happened, based on Hawkeye, are as reliable as we are given to believe.

    Just before C4 lost the contract to cover Test cricket in 2002, Dermot Reeve did a brilliant piece on how the images are fallible, not least because the cameras used aren't flush on the ground, but raised slightly on stands etc - this alters the perception of things like grounded catches which may look not out, but actually are. The same can be said of the trajectory of marginal lbw decisions. Can't find the actual piece to camera, but this Mark Nicholas piece from then is quite good:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/india/3032659/ICC-take-a-step-too-far.html

    As stated above, Hawkeye isn't used for catches, and the limitations of showing a 3D scene with 2D technology will always hamper video replays of low catches.

    Regarding Hawkeye accuracy at predicting the path, that is acknowledged within the DRM system, hence any marginal calls being "Umpires Call", i.e. Hawkeye can't be certain, within it's margin or error, that the ball would just hit or just miss and therefore defers to the on-field umpires opinion.

  • edited February 2013
    Indias stance on DRS is rubbish, and i hope they do revert once Tendulkar retires.
    Mark Nicholas's article is interesting, but that was ten years ago, and i think you will find that improvements have obviously been made since then. Its acknowledged that the 3d image on a 2d medium is inconclusive, and most skippers have come to the conclusion not to waste DRS reviews in this way - however, it was proved in the India test series that DRS is FAR more reliable than Umpires decisions in relation to LBW's.Hotspot, line calls etc. I think almost evryone now acknoeledges this (except the BCCI of course, but i think thats a different agenda).
  • This is the link showing the entrance prices for NEwlands tomorrow - you'll be pleased to note that neither guns nor vuvuzelas are allowed into cricket grounds!

    http://www.capetownmagazine.com/events/South-Africa-VS-Pakistan-Cricket-Test-Series/2013-02-15/11_37_54911_121
  • I love DRS as it is making batsmen play the ball more, esp to the spinners - no more "kicking" the ball away outside leg stump.

    I've not seen this case yet (will try and catch highlights later) but generally i'm not sure if the umpire actually says how a players is out - usually the just raise a finger. In this case Kallis should have thought where he was in relation to the stumps in case he was being given "out" by lbw - just becuase the fielders went up for a ctach, teh umpire may have thought differently.........obviusly the 3rd umpire did, and if Kallis was legitimately out, then he's out !!!!
  • I love DRS as it is making batsmen play the ball more, esp to the spinners - no more "kicking" the ball away outside leg stump.

    I've not seen this case yet (will try and catch highlights later) but generally i'm not sure if the umpire actually says how a players is out - usually the just raise a finger. In this case Kallis should have thought where he was in relation to the stumps in case he was being given "out" by lbw - just becuase the fielders went up for a ctach, teh umpire may have thought differently.........obviusly the 3rd umpire did, and if Kallis was legitimately out, then he's out !!!!

    Golf, DRS hanst changed the kicking outside leg stump - you still cant be given out if the ball pitches outside leg stump - but its stopped the kicking the ball away from outside off-stump.

    Kallis was given out by the Umpire Caught. It was the TMO that gave him out LBW when it found he hadnt hit the ball.
    The rukes (as proved later) say that the TMO can overall the on-field Umpire and give someone out for a decision other than the original one - however, the rules also state that in this case, the default is for the batsman to have been given NOT OUT by the onfield Umpire - therefore 'Umpires Call' would have meant that Kallis should have been given not out.

    Hope this clarifies matters !!

    Try to watch the highlights - it will explain it better than i am !!
  • WHAT THE FECK IS DRS
  • WHAT THE FECK IS DRS

    DRS - Dumb and Really Stupid .

  • that could be me so i like it
  • that could be me so i like it

    ok mate - you;re now a member of the DRS club - there's quite a few of us !
  • For those interested, highlights on SS4 at 10pm.
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