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Any Celiac sufferers?

My granddaughter had a miserable first few years with digestive problems which was eventually cured by a gluten free diet. It's a real pain continually avoiding wheat products but I saw an article suggesting that natural sourdough bread could be taken by most Celiacs a with no ill-effect. It has to be 100% naturally fermented sourdough though, not commercial so called sourdough, so you have to make it yourself.

We read up on how to bake sourdough and after some disasters both me and our granddaughter now get to eat real crusty old fashioned bread like I remember as a kid.

When we lived in Springfield Grove I would be sent to get the bread from Worths at the top of Victoria Way and would eat the crusty end piece and the black burnt bits on the slow walk home. I was amazed when I found the sourdough bread tasting just like I remember and it takes nothing more than flour, water, salt and patience. I've also stopped getting indigestion after eating bread.

Reading up on artisan baking it all makes sense why many people can't digest modern bread, it is not bread at all as our ancestors would have recognised, it is steamed flour and water with bubbles from artificially bred yeast that works with added sugar rather than the bread starch. Real bread is fermented flour and water and it takes upwards of 18 hours to happen. In the process the flour is converted into nutrients that the body can digest. It is not gluten which is the problem I believe, because sourdough has the same gluten as any bread, it must simply be that because modern bread is not fermented the gluten remains in a form which our system has not been designed to digest. Before the 1960s bread took longer to make even though commercial yeasts were used, so it had time to ferment. From the 1960s a new method of commercial bread making was invented that used foreign hard wheat so they could beat the daylights out of the dough and it took only minutes rather than days to produce bread.

Anyway, if there are any people having to avoid bread or struggle with indigestion after eating it, give it a try and I guarantee you will be hooked.
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Comments

  • I've been coeliac since 2000 and eat sourdough bread now and again. You're right about bread being different from years gone by. Cheap and cheerful flour and baking methods.
  • Not another old firm thread.
  • Thanks Dippenhall I will give it a go. Always suffered from indigestion and bread is a particular problem. Hope it works for me. Nothing like a doorstep sandwich! Looking forward to getting hooked on real bread again.
  • My daughters are both coeliac, so I'll look into this.
    They get their bread on prescription, which is just as well as they get through a loaf a day and it costs a bomb. You have to order the fresh stuff though. The stuff you get in shops is like cardboard.
  • Can't answer your question but I can tell you that my mate has the condition and whenever he eats bread his farts really stink!
  • I work in the bakery trade, spent my first 5 years in the business making gluten free bread for a company called Juvela. Off on my merry way now this morning to make English Bloomers & Portuguese Corn Bread at a big industrial bakery in Calgary!
  • Oakster said:

    I work in the bakery trade, spent my first 5 years in the business making gluten free bread for a company called Juvela. Off on my merry way now this morning to make English Bloomers & Portuguese Corn Bread at a big industrial bakery in Calgary!

    What's the dough like?
  • Oakster said:

    I work in the bakery trade, spent my first 5 years in the business making gluten free bread for a company called Juvela. Off on my merry way now this morning to make English Bloomers & Portuguese Corn Bread at a big industrial bakery in Calgary!

    What's the dough like?
    I get a decent crust
  • I've had to pretty much give up bread, there are some nice GF breads around but they have so much shite in them that i'm better off without them.
  • I didn't realise how serious it was until a former work mate died of complications from it!
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  • Was diagnosed as coeliac in '97, aged 51. Came out of nowhere and still don't know why. Like Uboat I get bread on precription but the local health authority has recently made cuts and you're very limited as to what you can have and how often. If I read Dippenhall's post aright, the gluten is still in the sourdough bread but in a form that can be digested. I'm not convinced on that, I'm afraid. Having said that, I avoided whisky for years because of it being made from grain but I was told that single malt whisky was o.k because the gluten in the malt was removed during the distilling process. In the interests of medical research I have put this to the test on a number of occassions and it doesn't seem to cause any problems (except that I can't afford it too often!). But I am wary of anything else that might have even a hint of gluten after my experiences before they managed to diagnose the condition. I would pay a lot, though, to be able to have a pie and a pint before a match (even from a kiosk inside the ground!) like I did pre-coeliac.
  • I love bread but causes me untold gip. Pretty much follow a low-FODMAP diet now which has produced very good results, don't follow it 100% but it's a big improvement on how I was.
  • Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject
  • Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject

    Or just avoid eating bread.
  • Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject

    Or just avoid eating bread.
    Or this
  • Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject

    I've got two kids who want toast in the morning and a packed lunch. They get through probably two thirds of a loaf a day (gf bread tends to be quite a bit smaller than the regular). The GF bread in shops costs a lot and is virtually inedible. The fresh bread apparently costs £6-8 a loaf.
    None of that has anything to do with morality, but if the NHS is going to spend money on people who have no plans to stop eating, drinking and smoking to excess, then I have to say I have no qualms about getting my kids' bread on prescription.
  • March51 said:

    Was diagnosed as coeliac in '97, aged 51. Came out of nowhere and still don't know why. Like Uboat I get bread on precription but the local health authority has recently made cuts and you're very limited as to what you can have and how often. If I read Dippenhall's post aright, the gluten is still in the sourdough bread but in a form that can be digested. I'm not convinced on that, I'm afraid. Having said that, I avoided whisky for years because of it being made from grain but I was told that single malt whisky was o.k because the gluten in the malt was removed during the distilling process. In the interests of medical research I have put this to the test on a number of occassions and it doesn't seem to cause any problems (except that I can't afford it too often!). But I am wary of anything else that might have even a hint of gluten after my experiences before they managed to diagnose the condition. I would pay a lot, though, to be able to have a pie and a pint before a match (even from a kiosk inside the ground!) like I did pre-coeliac.

    If you don't try you will never know. Here is an article on the research.

    Appl Environ Microbiol. 2004 Feb;70(2):1088-1096
    Celiac.com 02/26/2004 - Please note that the sourdough bread used in this study is not your garden-variety sourdough bread, and as far as I know it is not commercially available. Even though this study had very promising results, it was conducted on a relatively small number of people, and larger studies need to be carried out before reaching any conclusions about the long-term safety of celiacs consuming this type of sourdough bread. -Scott Adams

    Researchers in Europe conducted a novel study which utilized a highly specialized sourdough lactobacilli containing peptidases that have the ability to hydrolyze Pro-rich peptides, including the 33-mer peptide, which is the main culprit in the immune response associated with celiac disease. The sourdough bread in the study was made from a dough mixture that contained 30% wheat flour and other nontoxic flours including oat, millet, and buckwheat, which was then started with the specialized lactobacilli. After 24 hours of fermentation all 33-mer peptides and low-molecular-mass, alcohol-soluble polypeptides were almost totally hydrolyzed.

    For the next step in the study the researchers extracted proteins fro the sourdough and used them to produce a "peptic-tryptic digest" for in vitro agglutination tests on human K 562 subclone cell. The agglutinating activity of the sourdough proteins was found to be 250 times higher that that of normal bakers-yeast or lactobacilli started breads.

    A double blind test was then conducted in which 17 celiac disease patients were given 2 grams of gluten-containing bread started with bakers yeast or lactobacilli. Thirteen of them showed distinct, negative changes in their intestinal permeability after eating the bread, and 4 of them did not show any negative effects. The specially prepared sourdough bread was then given to all 17 patients and none of them had intestinal permeability reactions that differed from their normal baseline values.

    The researchers conclude: "These results showed that a bread biotechnology that uses selected lactobacilli, nontoxic flours, and a long fermentation time is a novel tool for decreasing the level of gluten intolerance in humans."
  • Uboat said:

    Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject

    I've got two kids who want toast in the morning and a packed lunch. They get through probably two thirds of a loaf a day (gf bread tends to be quite a bit smaller than the regular). The GF bread in shops costs a lot and is virtually inedible. The fresh bread apparently costs £6-8 a loaf.
    None of that has anything to do with morality, but if the NHS is going to spend money on people who have no plans to stop eating, drinking and smoking to excess, then I have to say I have no qualms about getting my kids' bread on prescription.
    I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, was just simply asking a question. My opinion is that children and over 65's should be eligible for bread on prescription, perhaps not free of charge, but at least have it subsidised. Adults should have to pay full cost in my opinion.

    Agree with regards obese alcoholics and smokers though
  • Fair comment Mr. Dippen, I'll give it a go, after all the whisky worked out. The other thing that surprised me was buckwheat, which despite it's name is gluten free. Makes great thick pancakes.
  • I tried buckwheat "porridge" once, was one of the most horrendous things i've tasted. Buckwheat flakes aren't too bad though.
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  • My wife went gluten-free a couple of years ago, and within a month was pregnant (after 3 years of trying). She said it helped her digestion and stopped her feeling so tired as well.
    So, starting in January, I've gone on a gluten-free diet too. Haven't been able to stick to it so rigidly, but I've definitely noticed a difference in my digestion, almost immediately.

    It is tough though, I REALLY miss bread. The GF stuff is simply not as good.
  • Don't see the problem with getting gluten free foods on the NHS, not that I've ever bothered.

    Coeliac disease is an illness, more so than pissed up people causing havoc in town centres every Friday night before abusing every A & E department.
  • Uboat said:

    Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject

    I've got two kids who want toast in the morning and a packed lunch. They get through probably two thirds of a loaf a day (gf bread tends to be quite a bit smaller than the regular). The GF bread in shops costs a lot and is virtually inedible. The fresh bread apparently costs £6-8 a loaf.
    None of that has anything to do with morality, but if the NHS is going to spend money on people who have no plans to stop eating, drinking and smoking to excess, then I have to say I have no qualms about getting my kids' bread on prescription.
    I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, was just simply asking a question. My opinion is that children and over 65's should be eligible for bread on prescription, perhaps not free of charge, but at least have it subsidised. Adults should have to pay full cost in my opinion.

    Agree with regards obese alcoholics and smokers though
    Part of the proble (cost-wise) is that the condition has become much more prevalent in a comparatively short time and is now much easier to diagnose (it took 'em 6 months back in '97). I have also heard that wheat intolerance is now a 'fashioable' condition to suffer from: 'bandwagon springs to mind. There used to be comparatively few sufferers and I think that by allowing bread on prescription was seen as being similar, say, to prescribing pills or medicine for other illnesses. After all Coeliac Disease can be fatal. However, the influx of new patients and the high cost of g/f food is causing health authoities to cut back on what you can have and one doctor told me that it was hoped that manufacturers would be cutting their prices but there has been no sign of this happening yet.

  • March51 said:

    Uboat said:

    Just a question: is it morally right to get bread on prescription? Especially as it can be purchased at shops or made at home. I'm not wanting to start an arguement, I just want to know peoples views on the subject

    I've got two kids who want toast in the morning and a packed lunch. They get through probably two thirds of a loaf a day (gf bread tends to be quite a bit smaller than the regular). The GF bread in shops costs a lot and is virtually inedible. The fresh bread apparently costs £6-8 a loaf.
    None of that has anything to do with morality, but if the NHS is going to spend money on people who have no plans to stop eating, drinking and smoking to excess, then I have to say I have no qualms about getting my kids' bread on prescription.
    I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, was just simply asking a question. My opinion is that children and over 65's should be eligible for bread on prescription, perhaps not free of charge, but at least have it subsidised. Adults should have to pay full cost in my opinion.

    Agree with regards obese alcoholics and smokers though
    Part of the proble (cost-wise) is that the condition has become much more prevalent in a comparatively short time and is now much easier to diagnose (it took 'em 6 months back in '97). I have also heard that wheat intolerance is now a 'fashioable' condition to suffer from: 'bandwagon springs to mind. There used to be comparatively few sufferers and I think that by allowing bread on prescription was seen as being similar, say, to prescribing pills or medicine for other illnesses. After all Coeliac Disease can be fatal. However, the influx of new patients and the high cost of g/f food is causing health authoities to cut back on what you can have and one doctor told me that it was hoped that manufacturers would be cutting their prices but there has been no sign of this happening yet.

    Very true March51, I worked in GF baking back in the early nineties - it was a niche illness with genuine sufferers having nowhere to buy bread - the stuff we made was absolutely awful, gas packed & with 12 weeks shelf life. It was made with wheat starch which had most of the gluten washed out. Truly awful stuff & you were only eating that as there was no other choice - it certainly wasnt a fashionable, self diagnosed quirk like it often is now.

    Even worse was the bread we made for PKU patients, with no protein whatsoever in the bread - PKU means a severe intolerance to the amino acid phenyalanine.

    The company I worked for even featured in a major film, whose name escapes me about a young child whose life is saved by being diagnosed & put on a special diet....
  • Lol. Coeliac disease used to be cool, but it's just gone mainstream these days.
    When my girls were diagnosed the doc said that one in a hundred have it, but only one in a thousand knows that they have it, so it might just be that diagnosis rates are up. There are plenty of misconceptions though, which does confuse the picture.
  • For those who can't do bread, have you tried spelt bread? Apparently was the type of grain used back in Roman times and more prevalent in Eastern Europe now, supposed to be much better.
  • Oakster, Juvela was the first g/f bread I had and you're spot on: it really was like chewing cardboard. I got quite depressed thinking that I would have to put up with it for the rest of my time. But one thing that has come about because, I think, of the 'popularity' of gluten allergies is that manufactorers have picked up on it and things have improved greatly over the last 4 or 5 years in the way of choice and quality. All the supermaket chains have ranges of g/f bread, biscuits, cakes, cereals etc. but of course they are all at least double the price of 'normal' foods. But a crusty loaf still seems to be beyond them and I have to rely on Mrs. M's baking skills for one of those and funnily enough she finds the Juvela g/f flour the best one to use and it tastes o.k. Perhaps they've changed their ways.

    SLL, can't say I've tried that myself: will read up on it, thaks.
  • Surely it isn't a coincidence that problems with digesting wheat has only been identified since commercial bakers started over-processing and and destroying the basic nutrient value of bread. Our ancestors would have known about gluten intolerance I'm sure had it been prevalent hundreds of years ago. I bet you don't find celiacs in remote communities where bread is made naturally.

    We've been eating fermented wheat for thousands of years because that's the only way its food value could be absorbed by the body, the alcoholic by-product didn't go amiss either. Modern bread is not fermented wheat, it is an over-processed industrial bread substitute, but obviously much cheaper than the real thing. That's the problem, real bread would be double the price which is why you should make it yourself. It is water, flour and salt and the only extra cost is your time.

    As for gluten free bread, its the pits.
  • Spelt is not gluten free.
  • Dippenhall, I share some of your reasonong on the industrial processing of bread. However - " I bet you don't find celiacs in remote communities where bread is made naturally." - there are remote communities or for a better word inbred communities where the gene that means people are born celiacs, (as opposing to developing it at a later stage in life) is shared amongst the gene pool meaning instances of localised occurrence (Western Ireland for example).

    It is a condition that you can be born with, long before you ever get to taste your first slice of white Warbies toast.

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