It was grim, though in the case of the rugby, at least England were beaten by a decent team... and the Welsh songs are a bit more enjoyable to listen to than the Millwall ones...
England got well tonked today by Wales and no complaints. As for Farrell's so-called great place kicking, I watched Kevin Sinfield (Leeds rugby league) last night. He has a 95% success rate from place kicks. Now that is a world-class great kicker from any part of the pitch. The only good news is that France finished bottom - imagine how they feel!!!
England got well tonked today by Wales and no complaints. As for Farrell's so-called great place kicking, I watched Kevin Sinfield (Leeds rugby league) last night. He has a 95% success rate from place kicks. Now that is a world-class great kicker from any part of the pitch. The only good news is that France finished bottom - imagine how they feel!!!
Sinfield is world class, but at 32 too old for Yawnion
Shirty5 I agree that Sinfield's age is against him but he is such a fantastic place kicker that the moment the penalty is given you are adding the points wheras in Yawnion, even when Wilko was in his pomp, I never had the same confidence.
Shirty5 I agree that Sinfield's age is against him but he is such a fantastic place kicker that the moment the penalty is given you are adding the points wheras in Yawnion, even when Wilko was in his pomp, I never had the same confidence.
To be fair in RWC 2003 Wilkinson was unbelievable with the boot, missed very little.
Many Union goal attempt penalties are attempted from 40+ yards out. I think you'll find that Sinfield's maximum effective range is 30-35 yards. League is a game where if you put a penalty into touch, you regain uncontested possession from the restart. In union, the restart after a penalty does not guarantee automatic repossession from a line-out. There is a bigger incentive in League to kick for touch from a long way out, rather than for goal. Yes, Sinfield is a great kicker within the limits I have outlined above. Over (say) 35 yards, give me Halfpenny, Farrell (when fully fit and confident) and/or Wilkinson every time
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="Miserableoldgit">Can never understand why they kick the ball backwards and forwards to each other. And, the ref always points the wrong way with "penalties".</blockquote>
it's a funny ol' game Brian (b t w .. most of the kicking goes forwards, only forward passing is not allowed)
;-) I meant when the ball gets kicked from one end to the other: Why not pass it to another player on your team instead of kicking it to the opposite number 15 (I think).
;-) I meant when the ball gets kicked from one end to the other: Why not pass it to another player on your team instead of kicking it to the opposite number 15 (I think).
The thinking with the kicking is to gain a territorial advantage. Runners converge on the (usually) full back who catches the ball and ideally tackle him and perhaps win the ball from the breakdown. Even if you don't win the ball you've gained ground.
^^^^^^^^ Good question. It's essentially a negative tactic, kicking into 'space' in the hope that the oppo will eventually make an error. The running game is dangerous nowadays because the modern player is so fast and the tackling so ferocious that runners are often tackled behind the 'gain line', the tackling team wins the 'breakdown' and the team that had possession is quickly on the defensive, hence the 'kicking game' The modern 15 a side game is (in my opinion) in trouble at the very highest level. Some club games are excellent, full of good running and passing. The players are good but not quite as good as the international player, not quite so big, fast or totally committed. International rugby is dominated by a 'do not lose attitude' leading to stalemate and many boring games. Also the scrum and line out laws are a mess, leading to far too many petty offences and games dominated by refereeing decisions, many of which are often marginal. Ideally modern Rugby Union would be played by 14 or 13 a side rather than 15. This would leave more space for attacking, handling play. Unfortunately of course, the whole ethos in rugby tactics is predicated on 15 a side. This is union of course. Rugby League went pro over 100 years ago and decided on 13 a side. Professional Rugby Union in contrast is a relatively new thing and is still evolving, but far too slowly.
Nice explanation Lincs, over the years I have developed a bit of an understanding of Rugby but you are obviously much better informed. I listen with interest to Brian Moores comments on the scrum, which he feels is a joke now and I have to say on Saturday it seemed to collapse constantly the end result invariably being a penalty to the Welsh, which I couldn't get at all.
That said I have to say the Welsh put us to the sword second half and were great value for their win.
;-) I meant when the ball gets kicked from one end to the other: Why not pass it to another player on your team instead of kicking it to the opposite number 15 (I think).
The thinking with the kicking is to gain a territorial advantage. Runners converge on the (usually) full back who catches the ball and ideally tackle him and perhaps win the ball from the breakdown. Even if you don't win the ball you've gained ground.
Thanks Len & Lincs. But....you're still giving the ball back to the opposition. (I think). ;-)
How could England get their scrum so wrong for the whole game? Did they not understand the rules which seems incredible for International players, or was the referee interpreting the rules wrongly which appears equally incredible.
It was an absolute fricking disgrace that Steve Walsh was picked to referee the game on Saturday (his reputation is worth a Google), but it doesn't detract from the fact the Welsh were just better on the day.
Its not just the rules around the lineout and scrum which are in a mess but around the breakdown that it is perceived a tackling player can do whatever he likes no matter how far offside he is.
Rugby has always been about smashing your way through the opposition, there's a lot of rose-tinted views of how the game used to be played. As important is playing the percentages and the kicking game is very much about that. When you've got goalkickers on the opposite team that can score from pretty much anywhere in your own half you need ways to pin the opposition team back and the most immediate way is to kick it.
That said the running game is still very much alive at international level. Players are so much more wise to recognising space, as an example look at how the Welsh spent time drawing the English defence as wide as possible, then struck through the middle with the forwards - and that was the key to their turn of fortunes in the second half.
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="EGAddick"><b>It was an absolute fricking disgrace that Steve Walsh was picked to referee the game on Saturday (his reputation is worth a Google), but it doesn't detract from the fact the Welsh were just better on the day.</b>Its not just the rules around the lineout and scrum which are in a mess but around the breakdown that it is perceived a tackling player can do whatever he likes no matter how far offside he is.
I agree. I refrained from slagging off Walsh for fear of sounding like a whinging Sassenach. I have not yet read Walsh's wiki entry but he has been controversial for years. I believe at one time he was involved in a punch up with members of the then England coaching staff. He is a glamour puss referee, he is basically a disgrace and I would say that he is a cheat (allegedly in case his lawyers are on the prowl).
Yes .. the breakdown as well as line-out and scrum needs sorting. However, what we do not want is an imitation/ersatz form of Rugby League. Remember that US Gridiron Football evolved from Rugby. There is scope and a need for radical change.
;-) I meant when the ball gets kicked from one end to the other: Why not pass it to another player on your team instead of kicking it to the opposite number 15 (I think).
The thinking with the kicking is to gain a territorial advantage. Runners converge on the (usually) full back who catches the ball and ideally tackle him and perhaps win the ball from the breakdown. Even if you don't win the ball you've gained ground.
Thanks Len & Lincs. But....you're still giving the ball back to the opposition. (I think). ;-)
Depends on how quickly the runners get there. Sometimes you can get a turnover and gain possession. The main aim though is to relieve pressure and gain territory.
Comments
Sinfield is world class, but at 32 too old for Yawnion
I agree that Sinfield's age is against him but he is such a fantastic place kicker that the moment the penalty is given you are adding the points wheras in Yawnion, even when Wilko was in his pomp, I never had the same confidence.
Yes, Sinfield is a great kicker within the limits I have outlined above. Over (say) 35 yards, give me Halfpenny, Farrell (when fully fit and confident) and/or Wilkinson every time
And, the ref always points the wrong way with "penalties".
And, the ref always points the wrong way with "penalties".</blockquote>
it's a funny ol' game Brian (b t w .. most of the kicking goes forwards, only forward passing is not allowed)
I meant when the ball gets kicked from one end to the other: Why not pass it to another player on your team instead of kicking it to the opposite number 15 (I think).
The thinking with the kicking is to gain a territorial advantage. Runners converge on the (usually) full back who catches the ball and ideally tackle him and perhaps win the ball from the breakdown. Even if you don't win the ball you've gained ground.
The modern 15 a side game is (in my opinion) in trouble at the very highest level. Some club games are excellent, full of good running and passing. The players are good but not quite as good as the international player, not quite so big, fast or totally committed. International rugby is dominated by a 'do not lose attitude' leading to stalemate and many boring games. Also the scrum and line out laws are a mess, leading to far too many petty offences and games dominated by refereeing decisions, many of which are often marginal.
Ideally modern Rugby Union would be played by 14 or 13 a side rather than 15. This would leave more space for attacking, handling play. Unfortunately of course, the whole ethos in rugby tactics is predicated on 15 a side. This is union of course. Rugby League went pro over 100 years ago and decided on 13 a side. Professional Rugby Union in contrast is a relatively new thing and is still evolving, but far too slowly.
That said I have to say the Welsh put us to the sword second half and were great value for their win.
But....you're still giving the ball back to the opposition. (I think).
;-)
Did they not understand the rules which seems incredible for International players, or was the referee interpreting the rules wrongly which appears equally incredible.
Its not just the rules around the lineout and scrum which are in a mess but around the breakdown that it is perceived a tackling player can do whatever he likes no matter how far offside he is.
Rugby has always been about smashing your way through the opposition, there's a lot of rose-tinted views of how the game used to be played. As important is playing the percentages and the kicking game is very much about that. When you've got goalkickers on the opposite team that can score from pretty much anywhere in your own half you need ways to pin the opposition team back and the most immediate way is to kick it.
That said the running game is still very much alive at international level. Players are so much more wise to recognising space, as an example look at how the Welsh spent time drawing the English defence as wide as possible, then struck through the middle with the forwards - and that was the key to their turn of fortunes in the second half.
I agree. I refrained from slagging off Walsh for fear of sounding like a whinging Sassenach. I have not yet read Walsh's wiki entry but he has been controversial for years. I believe at one time he was involved in a punch up with members of the then England coaching staff. He is a glamour puss referee, he is basically a disgrace and I would say that he is a cheat (allegedly in case his lawyers are on the prowl).
Yes .. the breakdown as well as line-out and scrum needs sorting. However, what we do not want is an imitation/ersatz form of Rugby League. Remember that US Gridiron Football evolved from Rugby. There is scope and a need for radical change.
That said you don't win 30-3 if you are not the better side on the day.