to transfer between them I first need to transfer the rmb in macau into macao patacas. the maximum for this is around 2000 pounds per day. no fee... but lose money in currency conversion.
then have to do a further currency conversion into hong kong dollars because that is the only way I can send the money to china.next I send the money from macau to china. When the money arrives in china I convert currency 1 further time in to rmb.
soooo.... that is 3 conversions
rmb ~ patacas ~ hk dollars ~ rmb
plus 30~40 quid in fees.
the only alternative would be to get a big briefcase of cash on 1 of my trips between macau and china but that would be illegal... and risky...
rip off!!!
Not half! If I have this right, it is more or less like wanting to change Scottish pound notes into English, but having to go via Jersey and The Isle of Man to do so, and being charged at every stop on the way? No wonder the inscrutable little f**kers have so much money...
Except HK, Macau and China are basically different countries! (Just don't let any of my students hear my saying that)
I will put the intermediary bank scam in the context of Offits railway analogy. Imagine that individual railway companies also owned the stations. And that London Bridge is owned by First Capital Cnnect. You buy your ticket from Charlton to Charing Cross for a fiver. When you get to London Bridge a ticket inspector from First capital gets on and charges you another tenner for passing through London Bridge. You protest that no one tells you in advance and that you wouldn't have used the train if you'd known the total is fifteen quid. He just shrugs and say the train can't get to Charing Cross without passing through London Bridge, it's business, and you can't get to Charing Cross either, so pay up.
If it is so bloody reasonable and transparent then it's funny that my account manager at the Czech bank admitted he'd never seen anything like it and needed several days to provide me with a garbled explanation. This charge should have come up in my Internet banking transaction. It did not. All I was asked online was whether to select SHA or OUR. He seems to be suggesting that if I had selected OUR I would have avoided intermediary charges, which doesn't make sense, and I am not sure he's right. But it's a bit rich to tell me it's all my fault if a bank account manager doesn't understand it either.
I'll reply to Tel in the evening, assuming I'm not too depressed by what I'm about to see or hear this afternoon
to transfer between them I first need to transfer the rmb in macau into macao patacas. the maximum for this is around 2000 pounds per day. no fee... but lose money in currency conversion.
then have to do a further currency conversion into hong kong dollars because that is the only way I can send the money to china.next I send the money from macau to china. When the money arrives in china I convert currency 1 further time in to rmb.
soooo.... that is 3 conversions
rmb ~ patacas ~ hk dollars ~ rmb
plus 30~40 quid in fees.
the only alternative would be to get a big briefcase of cash on 1 of my trips between macau and china but that would be illegal... and risky...
rip off!!!
Not half! If I have this right, it is more or less like wanting to change Scottish pound notes into English, but having to go via Jersey and The Isle of Man to do so, and being charged at every stop on the way? No wonder the inscrutable little f**kers have so much money...
Except HK, Macau and China are basically different countries! (Just don't let any of my students hear my saying that)
Only for the convenience of trade though isn't it Stu? If we invaded either tomorrow, whose soldiers would be kicking us out? ;-)
I understand in general terms your point of view, but in fact many of your individual excuses for my banks behaviour don't stand scrutiny.
So my overall point is that of course we have to pay for banking services. I do understand the argument I've heard that " free" banking on current accounts isn't tenable. But what pisses me and a lot of other people off is the untransparency of banks in the way they make money on consumers. This is what makes them different and worse than other businesses we deal with. For example, if I want to find out the best deal getting myself from London to Prague it is easy to go on the net and compare, including all the extra charges. I cannot at all do that when it comes to sending my money from London to Prague. Regarding your specific answers
- I am absolutely certain that the Czech National Bank has not set £40 as a fee to charge for incoming International transfers, since in our meeting the account manager admitted that a lot of complaints had been received and that anew package of fees was being introduced this month.
- in the case of the intermediary bank to Croatia, my frustration is that my bank DOES operate in Croatia too. Kindly explain why they need Standard Chartered in Frankfurt to get involved.
- you say it is ridiculous for me to expect my euro account and my Croatian recipients euro account to be treated as a direct euro- euro transfer. So then please explain this. My Czech account is multi denomination. It has GBP segment too. So when I transferred my 10k to my Czech account, at least it arrived intact as 10k in my Czech GBP account. And Raiffeisen doesn't have a retail network in the UK nor does HSBC have one in the Czech Republic. So why no chicanery involving Standard Chartered on this transaction, but there is in the euro-euro transaction to Croatia?
I don't hold you responsible for all these untransparent deals. I just want to demonstrate how untransparent it is, and that is what pisses people off. And I don't see why it has to be that way other than that it makes them easy money and they know that changing accounts is something people find a hassle.
Prague - I don't know Raiffeissen well enough to comment on a few points here. I do know they used to be Barclays correspondent in certain Eastern European countries, but were dropped. A quick google may suggest why!
Your account manager should know what correspondent bank fees are. If he/she doesn't, I'd ask to speak to someone who may have an idea, as it should be a pretty common aspect of their job (it is mine).
Your point about getting from London to Prague is a good one. The fees aren't transparent enough, but neither are they for travel. Both need checking into to get the best deal.
With regard to StanChart Frankfurt, you should ask your bank manager about their involvement. I suspect that as Croatia is not in the Euro that the bank there needs a Euro correspondent. The question should be why are they not their own Euro account holder if they operate within the Eu too.
The Euro has been a nightmare since it was introduced as a tradeable currency...before the actual paper money came in several years later. Mainland European banks play by their own rules and it took years of pressure to get them to even credit accounts on the day of the transfer (not all currencies can be same day value because of time zones, but Euros are).
Not sure where your sterling was coming from/to. Was it HSBC? If so, they will be their own Sterling correspondent, so no intermediary is required.
If I was your bank manager, I would be looking into all these and coming back to you with a full response and suggestions on what you could do. If yours isn't being proactive - and it sounds very much like they are shrugging their shoulders - I'd be looking to move.
Other than that...a great day at The Valley and despite a lack of transparency, Paddy Power eventually paid out on my 3-2 bet, which had included Afobe (Bolton) as first scorer. We all get there in the end.
I basically agree with TelMc32 but, rather than start it all up again I'd say this; Croatia is a fantastic part of the world that I have visited a few times, I'm sure you'll have a lovely holiday if you ever get there. Check out some of the smaller islands, you used to be able to hire small boats at very reasonable rates, it is by far the best way to see the "Riviera".
Well, I have learnt something from your comments, thanks for taking the time. I certainly will be looking closely at changing both banks. However particularly on the Czech side good alternatives are hard to come by. I can't emphasize enough the lack of a consumer culture there compared to the UK, and the banks have taken full advantage of that. There is anew Czech player which is trying to position itself as transparent option, called Air Bank. I have done some work for them, too. However the owner, PPF, is the huge holding company of the no 1 Czech oligarch. In terms of his background and rise to riches think of a similar untransparent story to Abramovic ( no, he has shown no interest in football, though) . Should one put ones money in such abank?
There were two Lifers who also helped but neither appeared on this thread. I did find out - too late - that there are other operations which have sprung up to compete in this area- which demonstrates there is a business opportunity provided by the banks behaviour. Mr OneLung works for Moneycorp. I tried Moneybookers, it being apparently easier to register, and they indeed moved money for me UK-CZ with hardly any fee, and the exchange rate was slightly better than the two banks gave me.
But the second guy, whom we won't name since he chose to write me privately, is a well known Lifer who is obviously in the business. He said that his company is trying to educate customers to focus on exchange rates rather than fees. He estimated that banks had made a grand on me in this respect,and that his company would save me a lot of that with a much lower FX spread. Which to me is more evidence that the banks are at it, but at least I now know of alternatives and hopefully a few other people on here have picked up some tips too. Which is one of the great things that CL does.
Sure, all' s well that ends well. Because I made it clear to the Croatian lady that this was 100% my problem to solve, she felt we were on the same side against the bloody banks, and as a result of that we've got a relationship which means they will give us those priceless tips that only locals can give you. We have been before but not to this part, and we are really looking forward to it. It is indeed a beautiful coastline.
Prague - no worries and glad you found alternatives that work. I'm on the corporate side in Barclays, looking after global law firms. They are used to working with clients in every country in the world and currency management is a large part of what we do for them.
We do actually try to do what your second lifer is doing...much as many want to demonise us. I'm an old-fashioned bank manager, not an investment guy, by the way. He/she is right...I suspect, to a lesser extent than PPI/Libor, that fx spreads will be looked at soon.
Amazingly, it took years for some to actually get what we were trying to educate them on. Namely, that they should be striving to achieve natural hedges wherever possible - by which I mean that they should not be converting currencies back to their home currency, when they may have upcoming expenditure in those currencies (most have global offices).
There are days of relatively large volatility in fx markets and this can make a huge difference in the values of many transactions, if clients deal at the wrong side of data releases. We speak with them regularly about this and particularly when they are aware of large transactions required for their clients.
Unfortunately, our retail side don't have the resources to do this for all personal clients, but worthwhile keeping an eye on Reuters and the brokers you have mentioned to understand the market rates (Reuters) and the spreads to clients (the brokers/banks).
I'll find out who our Czech correspondent is when I am back at work on Wednesday. May be an option for day to day banking, but keep looking at others (I'd say make sure you stick to established businesses, rather than new entrants who may entice with headline rates) for other financial services. Also, just keep an eye on it going forward...you'll often see decent rates/spreads at the outset, but these can gradually be eroded.
Much as I am loathe to advertise others, I work with a lot of US law firms who often have Citi in their bank group. They seem to be pulling out of a few countries, but they do have a more global footprint than most and could be worth a look if you need accounts in a number of places. If they're where you need to be, could be an option.
Won't disagree mate. Have been doing this for last 16 years (28 in the bank) and good friends with a number of my clients. Hacked off at the way others drag us all down, but have great support from the people I look after, who have helped me bring in new clients over the years - word of mouth is always the best advocacy.
Comments
If it is so bloody reasonable and transparent then it's funny that my account manager at the Czech bank admitted he'd never seen anything like it and needed several days to provide me with a garbled explanation. This charge should have come up in my Internet banking transaction. It did not. All I was asked online was whether to select SHA or OUR. He seems to be suggesting that if I had selected OUR I would have avoided intermediary charges, which doesn't make sense, and I am not sure he's right. But it's a bit rich to tell me it's all my fault if a bank account manager doesn't understand it either.
I'll reply to Tel in the evening, assuming I'm not too depressed by what I'm about to see or hear this afternoon
I understand in general terms your point of view, but in fact many of your individual excuses for my banks behaviour don't stand scrutiny.
So my overall point is that of course we have to pay for banking services. I do understand the argument I've heard that " free" banking on current accounts isn't tenable. But what pisses me and a lot of other people off is the untransparency of banks in the way they make money on consumers. This is what makes them different and worse than other businesses we deal with. For example, if I want to find out the best deal getting myself from London to Prague it is easy to go on the net and compare, including all the extra charges. I cannot at all do that when it comes to sending my money from London to Prague. Regarding your specific answers
- I am absolutely certain that the Czech National Bank has not set £40 as a fee to charge for incoming International transfers, since in our meeting the account manager admitted that a lot of complaints had been received and that anew package of fees was being introduced this month.
- in the case of the intermediary bank to Croatia, my frustration is that my bank DOES operate in Croatia too. Kindly explain why they need Standard Chartered in Frankfurt to get involved.
- you say it is ridiculous for me to expect my euro account and my Croatian recipients euro account to be treated as a direct euro- euro transfer. So then please explain this. My Czech account is multi denomination. It has GBP segment too. So when I transferred my 10k to my Czech account, at least it arrived intact as 10k in my Czech GBP account. And Raiffeisen doesn't have a retail network in the UK nor does HSBC have one in the Czech Republic. So why no chicanery involving Standard Chartered on this transaction, but there is in the euro-euro transaction to Croatia?
I don't hold you responsible for all these untransparent deals. I just want to demonstrate how untransparent it is, and that is what pisses people off. And I don't see why it has to be that way other than that it makes them easy money and they know that changing accounts is something people find a hassle.
Your account manager should know what correspondent bank fees are. If he/she doesn't, I'd ask to speak to someone who may have an idea, as it should be a pretty common aspect of their job (it is mine).
Your point about getting from London to Prague is a good one. The fees aren't transparent enough, but neither are they for travel. Both need checking into to get the best deal.
With regard to StanChart Frankfurt, you should ask your bank manager about their involvement. I suspect that as Croatia is not in the Euro that the bank there needs a Euro correspondent. The question should be why are they not their own Euro account holder if they operate within the Eu too.
The Euro has been a nightmare since it was introduced as a tradeable currency...before the actual paper money came in several years later. Mainland European banks play by their own rules and it took years of pressure to get them to even credit accounts on the day of the transfer (not all currencies can be same day value because of time zones, but Euros are).
Not sure where your sterling was coming from/to. Was it HSBC? If so, they will be their own Sterling correspondent, so no intermediary is required.
If I was your bank manager, I would be looking into all these and coming back to you with a full response and suggestions on what you could do. If yours isn't being proactive - and it sounds very much like they are shrugging their shoulders - I'd be looking to move.
Other than that...a great day at The Valley and despite a lack of transparency, Paddy Power eventually paid out on my 3-2 bet, which had included Afobe (Bolton) as first scorer. We all get there in the end.
I basically agree with TelMc32 but, rather than start it all up again I'd say this; Croatia is a fantastic part of the world that I have visited a few times, I'm sure you'll have a lovely holiday if you ever get there. Check out some of the smaller islands, you used to be able to hire small boats at very reasonable rates, it is by far the best way to see the "Riviera".
Well, I have learnt something from your comments, thanks for taking the time. I certainly will be looking closely at changing both banks. However particularly on the Czech side good alternatives are hard to come by. I can't emphasize enough the lack of a consumer culture there compared to the UK, and the banks have taken full advantage of that. There is anew Czech player which is trying to position itself as transparent option, called Air Bank. I have done some work for them, too. However the owner, PPF, is the huge holding company of the no 1 Czech oligarch. In terms of his background and rise to riches think of a similar untransparent story to Abramovic ( no, he has shown no interest in football, though) . Should one put ones money in such abank?
There were two Lifers who also helped but neither appeared on this thread. I did find out - too late - that there are other operations which have sprung up to compete in this area- which demonstrates there is a business opportunity provided by the banks behaviour. Mr OneLung works for Moneycorp. I tried Moneybookers, it being apparently easier to register, and they indeed moved money for me UK-CZ with hardly any fee, and the exchange rate was slightly better than the two banks gave me.
But the second guy, whom we won't name since he chose to write me privately, is a well known Lifer who is obviously in the business. He said that his company is trying to educate customers to focus on exchange rates rather than fees. He estimated that banks had made a grand on me in this respect,and that his company would save me a lot of that with a much lower FX spread. Which to me is more evidence that the banks are at it, but at least I now know of alternatives and hopefully a few other people on here have picked up some tips too. Which is one of the great things that CL does.
Sure, all' s well that ends well. Because I made it clear to the Croatian lady that this was 100% my problem to solve, she felt we were on the same side against the bloody banks, and as a result of that we've got a relationship which means they will give us those priceless tips that only locals can give you. We have been before but not to this part, and we are really looking forward to it. It is indeed a beautiful coastline.
We do actually try to do what your second lifer is doing...much as many want to demonise us. I'm an old-fashioned bank manager, not an investment guy, by the way. He/she is right...I suspect, to a lesser extent than PPI/Libor, that fx spreads will be looked at soon.
Amazingly, it took years for some to actually get what we were trying to educate them on. Namely, that they should be striving to achieve natural hedges wherever possible - by which I mean that they should not be converting currencies back to their home currency, when they may have upcoming expenditure in those currencies (most have global offices).
There are days of relatively large volatility in fx markets and this can make a huge difference in the values of many transactions, if clients deal at the wrong side of data releases. We speak with them regularly about this and particularly when they are aware of large transactions required for their clients.
Unfortunately, our retail side don't have the resources to do this for all personal clients, but worthwhile keeping an eye on Reuters and the brokers you have mentioned to understand the market rates (Reuters) and the spreads to clients (the brokers/banks).
I'll find out who our Czech correspondent is when I am back at work on Wednesday. May be an option for day to day banking, but keep looking at others (I'd say make sure you stick to established businesses, rather than new entrants who may entice with headline rates) for other financial services. Also, just keep an eye on it going forward...you'll often see decent rates/spreads at the outset, but these can gradually be eroded.
Much as I am loathe to advertise others, I work with a lot of US law firms who often have Citi in their bank group. They seem to be pulling out of a few countries, but they do have a more global footprint than most and could be worth a look if you need accounts in a number of places. If they're where you need to be, could be an option.
Good luck
Yes Citi has come up in this thread. Cafcfan recommended them.
I think we need some more old fashioned bank managers back at the helm:-)
They really make it all worthwhile and enjoyable