I stopped buying the programme a few season ago when in his column, the chaplain started quoting from the bible. I have enough of the freaks knocking on my door without having to read that rubbish in a football programme.
Wow - and you didn't see the option of just avoiding that column? Think this might be your problem rather than his.
I think you are being disingenuous here. So if someone said to you they don't buy the Sun newspaper because they are offended by pictures of naked women would your reply be 'Wow - why don't you just avoid page 3 - I think you might have a problem'?
I think you and others on your side of the debate are missing the point. No one is saying anything negative about Matt Baker. Some people are expressing unease that a christian minister is considered to be the 'heartbeat' of the club. If that really is the case and my son was the best 12 year old prospect in the country I would have big reservations about letting him sign for Charlton.
Also, are you, and other people on your side of the debate, saying that those of us that have expressed reservations and unease about this christian ethos at the club have no right to do so and have a 'problem' if we do? I was expecting people to defend the merits of having a Chaplain at the club (as some have done) but not the right to raise the issue!
What the heck does his being Christian have to do with anything? He doesn't even get paid by the club so it's NOT a 'club ethos' at all, its just one man doing what his best to help people who need it. From what Powell says, people go to the chaplain, he doesn't stick his oar in just because he can, he helps those who ask for it, regardless of their faith.
How anyone can think that having someone like a Chaplain to help guide advise console and to just listen to any player as a bad thing is crazy
The fact that they are the heartbeat is a great thing as it means that if they have any concerns away from football there is a corner of solitude available to them
Not to force beliefs upon but to advise and listen
I ain't religious I don't go church I don't even know what I think about religion tbh it's never something I have wanted to explore understand believe or disbelieve
But I have been I dark places before and I walked in upon a church near Liverpool street and I just wanted to talk to some one about my problem as I had spent hrs walking and thinking slowly thinking I was going insane and had no one to turn to
It seemed the only place open at that time and I don't know why I went in there
But I found the priest and asked him for ten mins of his time
Ten mins became 2 hrs and he never once imposed faith on me just listened and spoke
I ain't been back since he didn't even offer advice really but I got all my problems out and it helped me file them into order and I processed the answers myself
Some of you on here don't half look for issues that do not exist in life And I think you need to get out more
The guy's there to offer pastoral care. If people want religious/spiritual or mental counseling there is someone there to talk too. It's not like he's going in giving sermons, fucking hell. Surely if he was you would have thought Kerkar might have something to say about it...
Some bad, bad cynics on here. The guy works for free. A few years ago one of our players tried to kill himself. The first person he told about his depression was our Chaplain. Think before you criticize.
I stopped buying the programme a few season ago when in his column, the chaplain started quoting from the bible. I have enough of the freaks knocking on my door without having to read that rubbish in a football programme.
Wow - and you didn't see the option of just avoiding that column? Think this might be your problem rather than his.
I think you are being disingenuous here. So if someone said to you they don't buy the Sun newspaper because they are offended by pictures of naked women would your reply be 'Wow - why don't you just avoid page 3 - I think you might have a problem'?
I think you and others on your side of the debate are missing the point. No one is saying anything negative about Matt Baker. Some people are expressing unease that a christian minister is considered to be the 'heartbeat' of the club. If that really is the case and my son was the best 12 year old prospect in the country I would have big reservations about letting him sign for Charlton.
Also, are you, and other people on your side of the debate, saying that those of us that have expressed reservations and unease about this christian ethos at the club have no right to do so and have a 'problem' if we do? I was expecting people to defend the merits of having a Chaplain at the club (as some have done) but not the right to raise the issue!
All I'm saying is that it seems an odd reason to stop buying the programme. Matt Baker's very rarely in there and the column in question if I recall correctly was written at Easter, the major Christian festival. Would seem odd for him not to mention religion surely? But like I say, you don't have to read it.
The very idea that the presence of a chaplain indicates the club having a Christian ethos is so disproportionate I don't even know where to start. Well, except perhaps you'd have trouble finding a club for your boy. Try reading the article. At no point did anyone suggest Matt was the heartbeat of the club because he brought a Christian ethos, and as others have said quite eloquently, he doesn't - other than the one he lives and breathes.
You seem to have a problem because a Christian is involved with the players, full stop. Should we not have Chris Powell as our manager then because he happens to be a Christian?
This isn't at all about a Christian ethos being forced on the club, not at all. I respectfully suggest it's you, therefore, who's missing the point.
I can't see why anybody has a problem with somebody is there to help people who need him. Only if they want to and at no cost to him or club. Some people really need to find something worthwhile to complain about - there are a few things!
Oh there's loads of charlton fans sitting uncomfortably about this! They've got piles I think.
I think it's lovely to be honest and I also hope the Muslim players in our team could also think they could talk to him.
It's absolutely the case that Matt and his colleagues are available to all players and do have conversations with people of all faiths and none.
What's interesting is that a Muslim association are trying to set up a chaplaincy scheme but aimed only at the Muslim players. This is where I think it misses the point. If someone needs religious support then that's already available in churches, mosques, synagogues etc. Matt's organisation isn't about religion, although it's a Christian organisation - it's about providing a level of pastoral care that the clubs do not and, frankly, will not provide. And they do so on a charitable basis. Should be applauded to my mind.
It's a bit odd that you would say that Matt's organisation is not about religion when the opening line of the article we are discussing goes as follows, "The Church is in crisis. Congregations are collapsing, scandals abound, but there is one place where religion is flourishing. In sport". Chris Powell is then quoted as saying that players won't come to him with a question about religion. It's even more odd when you start to look at the organisation, Sports Chaplaincy UK, that Matt comes from. I had a look at their website and I found that of the 227 chaplains registered there, 201 call themselves Rev. There are six Pastors, four Fathers, two Canons and one who is so close to supernatural superstardom that the he goes by the title "The Venerable" - I've put it in quotation marks so that you can see that this is a man so close to god that he is known as a definite article. 95% of the people that this organisation are pushing have formal religious titles. If that's not a religious organisation then they must have the worst record as an equal opportunities employer since the Waffen SS . Not convinced? Try looking at it's 'about us' pages "[Sports Chaplaincy] grows and develops with prayer and donations". I bet it does.
As much as Matt Baker might a nice guy who doesn't "push his beliefs" as people that know him are keen point out, there is still a major contradiction at the heart of the idea. What is being pushed might not be the Christian faith as such, but the notion that there should be any faith at all - that there is some sort of other-worldly spiritual side to life that should be dealt with. It may be soft sell rather than hard sell, but it is sell nonetheless. It's not about grabbing the trout, but tickling it.
Given this context it would be amazing if other faiths weren't keen to set up their own alternative chaplain/imam/rabbi/shaman/whatever. Is it reasonable, for example, to expect the parents of a muslim lad to want him to speak with a minister of another religion? As nice as he is and as neutral as the facade may be, the fact will always remain that he is committed to a different faith. He might be excellent in his dealings with the players, but there's always going to be a seed of doubt amongst some that he's not going to be as good as one of their own simply because he is a badged-up representative of an alternative cult.
I am all in favour of the club having someone that players (and other employees) at the club can talk to, but they should be completely neutral. Call it a counsellor, mentor or even a concierge if you will. If Matt Baker can do this, and a lot of you are suggesting he can, then that's fine by me. But it should not in the guise of a Christian minister. For him to have my support in the role would require that he is not called a chaplain which, whether you like it or not, is a loaded term. There should be no religious iconography (including the vestments) and most importantly he should be in the pay of the club not some other organisation. That really is the acid test. If he genuinely is as Chris Powell says, "the heartbeat of the club", then he should be at the heart of it's pay bill, not doing it on the side and using the name Charlton Athletic to gain credibility for someone else.
@Stig - why should they be completly neutral? why can't psychologists, counsellors and chaplains sit side by side. The arrogance you display in dismissing the idea that people may require spiritual guidance is astounding. You might have read The God Delusion and feel above such matters - but the fact is that many, many people (including myself) take more out of a spiritual environment than an often more cold psychological one. People are different. In fact in Alyson's Rudd piece, she quotes sports psychologists who recognise the different but often important space that chaplains occupy at football clubs.
I cannot at all fathom why they should be at the club under a different title. Having a chaplain does not mean Charlton are a Christian club. It does not mean our players are forced to go to sunday school and say grace. It means that there is a figure present for those players who do have religious problems or other personal issues. You might think it's silly, but as I said earlier, when a man who tries to take his own life first confides in the club's chaplain, it's clear to see that he offers some value.
EDIT - I apologise for being so rude here. But I do think chaplain's arent really worthy of such criticism.
@loe.ldn.wpack Yeah, I am arrogant, no doubt about it so I wouldn't be astounded. I'm not going to respond to your other points here though, that's not because I agree with you or that I feel defeated but because I sense that other people have heard enough from me. So unless someone else introduces a whole new angle to this discussion (I don't think they will now) I'm going to drop it for now. I still think I'm right, but I don't think I'm convincing anyone that wasn't already with me on this. I'm satisfied I've made my point on this and would like to thank admin for allowing the debate to run.
I don't think you were being rude, just robust. That's a good thing; certainly no need to apologise. For the record though, I wouldn't like anyone to think I was criticising the chaplain. I don't know the man. What I was criticising was the notion of chaplaincy.
Anyway, I hope everyone has a great Easter weekend, no matter what their faith - or none ;-)
@stig, just to say I think you've misunderstood me. Of course they're a Christian organisation, as I've stated clearly, so unless I'm contradicting myself I must mean something else by 'religious organisation'. And I do, I mean their objective isn't religious recruitment or selling, but pastoral and spiritual care, where appropriate and where wanted - "it is very much a permission led activity."
Where you are wrong is in your suspicion anything is being pushed, even the notion of a faith. They are Christians, making no secret of that - as if it were anything to be ashamed of anyway - and many of whom are accredited ministers who are entitled to wear religious vestments if they choose. But they are not on a recruitment agenda.
These are guys motivated by their faith to offer this service on a charitable basis and are patently doing good. As I've said, the Muslim equivalent is aimed only at Muslims and one suspects the idea, therefore, of holistic care for all isn't on their particular agenda.
I really do think you're misunderstanding what they do and what they intend. Your cynicism is misplaced, really it is. Maybe part of what they do could be done by organisations without any religious affiliation, but not all - and let's be honest, they're the only ones doing it aren't they.
I mean no offence, but if you understood what Matt and his colleagues are actually doing you wouldnt and couldn't say what you're saying.
I must admit, I am not a believer, but the wife is - sort of. We had a great club chaplain in 2001 - I know as he christened my son in the board room. Was a great ceremony with the guests wearing the shirts of the teams they support (No Millwall or Palace) and the chaplain reading from fever pitch. He was a top bloke, a fan, and I know the religeous players such as Rufus and Pringle used his services.
In-laws said they were a bit worried when we told them our plans, but it was the most enjoyable service they ever attended and the guests loved the novelty of it all. If the club still does it, I would recommend. As somebody who isn't religeous, I enjoyed it too and to be fair the chaplain did ensure it had a religeous feel so everybody was happy.
I must say I agree with Red in SE8. He has stated that nobody is suggesting that Matt Baker is anything other than a good follow. I think his point is that he is rather surprised as am I that something which in my opinion should be secular i.e. a football club is making or at least implying that the chaplaincy is central to what the club is about. Of course there is no suggestion that the club is encouraging its young people to take advantage of the chaplain but I would suggest that the players over a certain age if they are religious could easily sort out their own arrangement and it is for the parents of the younger ones to guide their children as they see fit. Not sure why the club feels the need to be involved or provide a platform on any level.
I think that there is a stigma young men associate with counsellors , shrinks etc
Therefore the option of a friendly ear that can offer support and advice is a good thing , chaplains , are men that have the ability through their training to listen and to absorb without creating a profile of analysis that can lead to a patient doctor relationship
They invariably lead clean moralistic life styles that are embeded in the family values life style that is condusive to a stable mind
No one is being offered god as a option to turn too it is having someone with the ability to listen to be there for all from the groundstaff to the players
You really shouldnt look beyond the reasons stated above as to why he is there and is one of the foundation stones for success in any model football club oh yeah and its free name me a shrink or counsellor who would be available 247 for no cost just when you need to talk
All very decent points nla. On a personal level I just struggle with any organised religion having any form of involvement if that involvement has not been sought by the individual. By the club saying its the heartbeat of the club it seems to me as some kind of endorsement.
Reading way too much into it SHG. Regardless of religion, Matt Baker is just a bloke doing what he feels best to help young men who need it. If he wasn't called chaplain, no-one would have any problems with him or his role at all.
I think pal thats the misconcepetion in this the club are endorsing having an optition for young men to talk freely without fear or stigma
The fact is that all men of cloth are trained to listen have close links to organisations that can provide the answers and dedicated advice they may require
Its a win win , every club has a church close by and most have the chaplain, priest associated with the club in some way
On a personal level i also feel in a christian country its important that we do advocate support of the main religion in this country many football clubs are cathedrals of sort its just we worship the players and club in a similar way to those who actively follow their chosen religion,
Its very important that community clubs use the community to thrive
Matt was great person to chat to on a regular basis to have him around the club when I was working there and everyone was worried about their jobs.
Never spoke about the church, he was just nice to chat with about his boys or about the football or what we'd done at the weekend. He remembered everything we'd ever told him.
We did used to sometimes apologise when he used to walk in on me and a colleague swearing or during a chat accidentally blaspheming but he just smiled and carried on chatting.
If we had a lot of muslim players, I wouldn't have a problem with having a club Imam. But we don't so no point. But if there is a demand for a club chaplain, what is the issue?
Comments
How anyone can think that having someone like a Chaplain to help guide advise console and to just listen to any player as a bad thing is crazy
The fact that they are the heartbeat is a great thing as it means that if they have any concerns away from football there is a corner of solitude available to them
Not to force beliefs upon but to advise and listen
I ain't religious I don't go church I don't even know what I think about religion tbh it's never something I have wanted to explore understand believe or disbelieve
But I have been I dark places before and I walked in upon a church near Liverpool street and I just wanted to talk to some one about my problem as I had spent hrs walking and thinking slowly thinking I was going insane and had no one to turn to
It seemed the only place open at that time and I don't know why I went in there
But I found the priest and asked him for ten mins of his time
Ten mins became 2 hrs and he never once imposed faith on me just listened and spoke
I ain't been back since he didn't even offer advice really but I got all my problems out and it helped me file them into order and I processed the answers myself
Some of you on here don't half look for issues that do not exist in life And I think you need to get out more
Some bad, bad cynics on here. The guy works for free. A few years ago one of our players tried to kill himself. The first person he told about his depression was our Chaplain. Think before you criticize.
The very idea that the presence of a chaplain indicates the club having a Christian ethos is so disproportionate I don't even know where to start. Well, except perhaps you'd have trouble finding a club for your boy. Try reading the article. At no point did anyone suggest Matt was the heartbeat of the club because he brought a Christian ethos, and as others have said quite eloquently, he doesn't - other than the one he lives and breathes.
You seem to have a problem because a Christian is involved with the players, full stop. Should we not have Chris Powell as our manager then because he happens to be a Christian?
This isn't at all about a Christian ethos being forced on the club, not at all. I respectfully suggest it's you, therefore, who's missing the point.
Here endeth the lesson. God bless you all. X
As much as Matt Baker might a nice guy who doesn't "push his beliefs" as people that know him are keen point out, there is still a major contradiction at the heart of the idea. What is being pushed might not be the Christian faith as such, but the notion that there should be any faith at all - that there is some sort of other-worldly spiritual side to life that should be dealt with. It may be soft sell rather than hard sell, but it is sell nonetheless. It's not about grabbing the trout, but tickling it.
Given this context it would be amazing if other faiths weren't keen to set up their own alternative chaplain/imam/rabbi/shaman/whatever. Is it reasonable, for example, to expect the parents of a muslim lad to want him to speak with a minister of another religion? As nice as he is and as neutral as the facade may be, the fact will always remain that he is committed to a different faith. He might be excellent in his dealings with the players, but there's always going to be a seed of doubt amongst some that he's not going to be as good as one of their own simply because he is a badged-up representative of an alternative cult.
I am all in favour of the club having someone that players (and other employees) at the club can talk to, but they should be completely neutral. Call it a counsellor, mentor or even a concierge if you will. If Matt Baker can do this, and a lot of you are suggesting he can, then that's fine by me. But it should not in the guise of a Christian minister. For him to have my support in the role would require that he is not called a chaplain which, whether you like it or not, is a loaded term. There should be no religious iconography (including the vestments) and most importantly he should be in the pay of the club not some other organisation. That really is the acid test. If he genuinely is as Chris Powell says, "the heartbeat of the club", then he should be at the heart of it's pay bill, not doing it on the side and using the name Charlton Athletic to gain credibility for someone else.
I cannot at all fathom why they should be at the club under a different title. Having a chaplain does not mean Charlton are a Christian club. It does not mean our players are forced to go to sunday school and say grace. It means that there is a figure present for those players who do have religious problems or other personal issues. You might think it's silly, but as I said earlier, when a man who tries to take his own life first confides in the club's chaplain, it's clear to see that he offers some value.
EDIT - I apologise for being so rude here. But I do think chaplain's arent really worthy of such criticism.
I don't think you were being rude, just robust. That's a good thing; certainly no need to apologise. For the record though, I wouldn't like anyone to think I was criticising the chaplain. I don't know the man. What I was criticising was the notion of chaplaincy.
Anyway, I hope everyone has a great Easter weekend, no matter what their faith - or none ;-)
Where you are wrong is in your suspicion anything is being pushed, even the notion of a faith. They are Christians, making no secret of that - as if it were anything to be ashamed of anyway - and many of whom are accredited ministers who are entitled to wear religious vestments if they choose. But they are not on a recruitment agenda.
These are guys motivated by their faith to offer this service on a charitable basis and are patently doing good. As I've said, the Muslim equivalent is aimed only at Muslims and one suspects the idea, therefore, of holistic care for all isn't on their particular agenda.
I really do think you're misunderstanding what they do and what they intend. Your cynicism is misplaced, really it is. Maybe part of what they do could be done by organisations without any religious affiliation, but not all - and let's be honest, they're the only ones doing it aren't they.
I mean no offence, but if you understood what Matt and his colleagues are actually doing you wouldnt and couldn't say what you're saying.
In-laws said they were a bit worried when we told them our plans, but it was the most enjoyable service they ever attended and the guests loved the novelty of it all. If the club still does it, I would recommend. As somebody who isn't religeous, I enjoyed it too and to be fair the chaplain did ensure it had a religeous feel so everybody was happy.
Therefore the option of a friendly ear that can offer support and advice is a good thing , chaplains , are men that have the ability through their training to listen and to absorb without creating a profile of analysis that can lead to a patient doctor relationship
They invariably lead clean moralistic life styles that are embeded in the family values life style that is condusive to a stable mind
No one is being offered god as a option to turn too it is having someone with the ability to listen to be there for all from the groundstaff to the players
You really shouldnt look beyond the reasons stated above as to why he is there and is one of the foundation stones for success in any model football club oh yeah and its free name me a shrink or counsellor who would be available 247 for no cost just when you need to talk
The fact is that all men of cloth are trained to listen have close links to organisations that can provide the answers and dedicated advice they may require
Its a win win , every club has a church close by and most have the chaplain, priest associated with the club in some way
On a personal level i also feel in a christian country its important that we do advocate support of the main religion in this country many football clubs are cathedrals of sort its just we worship the players and club in a similar way to those who actively follow their chosen religion,
Its very important that community clubs use the community to thrive
Never spoke about the church, he was just nice to chat with about his boys or about the football or what we'd done at the weekend. He remembered everything we'd ever told him.
We did used to sometimes apologise when he used to walk in on me and a colleague swearing or during a chat accidentally blaspheming but he just smiled and carried on chatting.
Top fella.