Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.

Fast track court hearings.

Thinking about yesterdays terrible events it seems that the British justice system is poorly set up to deal with defendants that are clearly guilty yet can still elect for a full trial at great expense to the taxpayer and great emotional cost to the families of the victims and the witnesses. Is this right?

I know we have a principle of innocent until proven guilty and tbh it goes against the grain to think this way but it seems to me that we have reached a stage now, (with forensics, surveillance techniques, cameras on every street, etc) leading to cases coming up every so often where the weight of evidence is just so overwhelming that we need a fast track process to determine whether a full jury trial on a not guilty plea is remotely justifiable and if not a scaled down process to consider any mitigating circumstances should be triggered.

Dangerous ground perhaps but we know that the two people involved yesterday did what they did so why should we now put the family of the deceased through the potential trauma of a full trial at which they are likely to make further political capital in an attempt to justify their actions.

Comments

  • Totally agree, BA.

    Shouted at the TV this lunchtime when the 2 with fresh blood on their hands and machete were described as "suspects" !!!!!

    Maybe I need to review my understanding of that word...
  • If the evidence is so overwhelming, won't the justice be swift anyway without the need to cut corners?
  • Not being funny, but these two are seen on tv admitting what they had done. Lots of witnessess saw it and have reported it. How much more evidence do they need to convict them?
  • We have to give them their human rights, after all they may have admitted their guilt in haste!!!!!

    They would probably want a trial so they could spew out more hatred.
  • cafckev said:

    Not being funny, but these two are seen on tv admitting what they had done. Lots of witnessess saw it and have reported it. How much more evidence do they need to convict them?

    That's my whole point. They are clearly guilty yet there is nothing currently stopping them pleading otherwise and the prosecution then having to prove every single element of the offence in great detail causing even further distress to the victims family, at great expense and giving them a platfrom to spout more bile should they wish to do so.
  • They are in custody and are going nowhere - it's hardly as though they are out on remand.

    I'd rather they were tried properly even if it takes a bit longer to bring the case to court than some would like and I'd also rather that the case against them is proven properly - that is above and beyond all reasonable doubt. If you rush trials you potentially damage that making convictions less than secure.

    The whole principle here is that we have an opportunity to demonstrate that our way of doing things is better than the instant dispensing of justice that terrorists prefer.
  • I know where you are coming from and fast-tracking should be possible when you get an early guily plea. All that toing and froing from Mags' Courts and gaol for preliminary hearings before the matter is kicked upstairs to a Crown Court is just a waste of time and money.
    However, every contested case probably needs to be dealt with on the basis of a long and costly legal process I'm afraid. If it isn't, it would make the prospects for a guilty verdict being overturned on appeal much more likely.
    I know from what I used to do that some seemingly basic financial crime cases can take over two years to get to court. First there's the investigation. This can't be just the obvious stuff: You have to look for anything, anything at all, that might undermine your case. That includes being quite strict with the process of taking witness statements. Second there's all the forensics and proper management of the evidence. Third there's the charging process and the care that has to be taken to make sure that the proper charges will be laid (and that there are "back-up" charges in the alternative in case the original ones fall over for some unforeseen reason). Fourth there's the disclosure process when the defence gets the opportunity to review every single piece of evidence gathered during the investigation (including various early drafts of witness statements for example) and this disclosure is of ALL material harvested during the investigation not just that being used in the prosecution. This can take ages in complex matters. Then there's the defence disclosure of eg alibis, witnesses which might bring up new lines of enquiry. To give a guide to complexity, the CPS disclosure manual alone consists of 37 Chapters and 11 annexes!
    Fifth The defence will try to play the insanity card - they nearly always do, so that will involve maybe court appointed shrinks asking what colour grass is (it seems even mad people know that grass is green and any other answer is an indication of malingering [in the legal sense] or living in Kentucky.)
    Then, of course, there's the actual court process.....
    Some stuff just takes time.
  • They are in custody and are going nowhere - it's hardly as though they are out on remand.

    I'd rather they were tried properly even if it takes a bit longer to bring the case to court than some would like and I'd also rather that the case against them is proven properly - that is above and beyond all reasonable doubt. If you rush trials you potentially damage that making convictions less than secure.

    The whole principle here is that we have an opportunity to demonstrate that our way of doing things is better than the instant dispensing of justice that terrorists prefer.

    Perhaps fast track is not the right term. I mean more of a scaled down version of a full trial. I am well aware of the principles around the burden of proof and indeed the pre-trial disclosure process which is supposed to clear the ground somewhat and get to the heart of the case.

    It just seems to me that in some (a few) cases the burden on the public purse could be eased a little where the defendent has zero realistic chance of the case being dismissed.
  • edited May 2013
    My version of fast-track would have been for the police to have shot them in the kneecaps and then just left them there for the other occupants of the nearby barracks to carry out their own 'hearing'.
  • I mean more of a scaled down version of a full trial.

    What elements would you skip?

    What you might not be aware of is that the Justice & Security Act has just been given Royal Assent. One of the the things that this allows is "CMPs" - Closed Material Procedures, which seek to limit the amount of information that can be disclosed to the defence team. The JSA also allows secret trials in cases where there is a threat to national interests.



  • Sponsored links:


  • edited May 2013
    there is an old legal cliché; Justice delayed is justice denied. BUT in modern serious criminal cases, juries can be so fickle (all that CSI stuff) that the CPS takes ultra care to get the prosecution facts and case just so. This takes time
  • Very interest points of view but surely they will plead guilty for the reason that both were so content to stay put and be filmed. My only concern is that one day both will be free.
  • edited May 2013

    They are in custody and are going nowhere - it's hardly as though they are out on remand.

    I'd rather they were tried properly even if it takes a bit longer to bring the case to court than some would like and I'd also rather that the case against them is proven properly - that is above and beyond all reasonable doubt. If you rush trials you potentially damage that making convictions less than secure.

    The whole principle here is that we have an opportunity to demonstrate that our way of doing things is better than the instant dispensing of justice that terrorists prefer.

    Perhaps fast track is not the right term. I mean more of a scaled down version of a full trial. I am well aware of the principles around the burden of proof and indeed the pre-trial disclosure process which is supposed to clear the ground somewhat and get to the heart of the case.

    It just seems to me that in some (a few) cases the burden on the public purse could be eased a little where the defendent has zero realistic chance of the case being dismissed.
    So a mini trial then?
  • Might be difficult to find an unbiased jury for this one. There can't be many people who did watch yeterdays events unfold.
  • ^^^ we know what you mean (:->)
Sign In or Register to comment.

Roland Out Forever!