Hopefully TJ and Slater will be gone before too long, we never had a problem selling out last time in the prem and we wouldn't if we got back there again. A new stadium with the current board in charge who don't want to invest in the playing squad makes little sense
What if they, by which I mean our kindly benevolent owners, just made promises, put up lots of architects pretty drawings, sold the Valley and RBG down the river by reneging on their promises to rebuild at the peninsula by using the 'oops sorry chaps but we've gone bankrupt argument'? It's happened elsewhere so why not at the Valley? Monies can get shifted through offshore shell accounts and none of us would have a clue what has gone where and to whom.
Happened to the Harlow velodrome about 10-15 years ago people are still searching for the money ( reported to be 4 million ) .
it shouldnt be discussed it has no value in discussion it is a ludicrous idea, unless CAFC own the new ground we are lodgers, there is no business sense how would we make money by being a tennant, and that is\what the move is
sell the valley so current or future owners get the money for the ground and the council and cafc do a venture together ,
get the club into the prem at the valley and you dont lose 7-8m pa
get it right off the pitch grow slowly build properly by developing youth and selling them on to build and enhance the playing squad therefore making the prem a real option
not move the club and no longer own the bedrock in which it exists offers you no business plan
Arsenal own the emirates the money generated by their season ticket sales is theirs , The only ground and club to do it
CAFC will never compete with Arsenal,Tottenham,Chelsea on the pitch and we wont even get the same numbers as west ham no chance
its a stupid idea as your market place you want to move in to is flooded and unless you get a rich shiek it is an unreachable dream
to discuss it gives it merit and this deserves none
Maybe a move would accompany an aggressive attempt to get east and south Kent fans. High speed to Stratford then tube to north Greenwich. Such a scheme maybe felt necessary to combat west ham doing the same.
I use HS1 regularly and it's not cheap, even with a railcard. A return trip to the O2 from Ramsgate would be about £40 or £26 with a network card. The Thanet population is the poorest in Kent (although there are very affluent pockets) and wouldn't generally be in a position to spend £75-£100 on a trip to see Charlton. It's also 70 minutes (at present) from Ramsgate just to Stratford. We have served this market with Valley Express.
Well over half our support is in four SE London boroughs. Another chunk is in NW Kent (proper) and may find Ebbsfleet International convenient, but they'd find it just as easy to get to Arsenal if they can get in.
North Greenwich is about two miles walk from Charlton station. What it does have is a good bus service, but so does The Valley. How willing people are to queue and travel on buses if given no choice I don't know.
I think that any potential move close to the O2 would have attendances hit by it not being the Valley but more importantly, where are the parking places? Greenwich Council seem to hate car drivers, this combined with the poor public transport available to our core support would make this a non-starter. The only venue that would make any sense would be the MAKRO site as a location.
I am opposed to a move in principle but would be open to looking at the facts. It wouldn't be the same as the Sellout fiasco.
Well in addition to limited parking in the plan, there are 5 car parks around the O2, plus the Sainsburys parking which might potentially support matchday parking, but the location would be served by bus, tube, DLR, boat and train (Westcombe Park) as well. I could see a matchday park and ride scheme as well.
I think we might benefit from avoiding considering such logistics as showstoppers from whatever angle. With such a development, these will all be a big part of the consideration and some kind of solution will be found, even if not perfect.
I don't think there's much to argue that the master plan will provide for better public transport links than are currently available at the Valley. This isn't really the point for me.
I guess the question is whether we ever want to have a hope of competing at the top level, or whether we are satisfied with being a Championship/League One club (notwithstanding those pesky £7m losses that have still only left us with a threadbare squad).
I am far from convinced that even if by some miracle we won promotion in the next couple of seasons that we would sell out The Valley again - at best we become a yo yo club (and as I say would be a miracle if we achieved even that the way things are).
I am confident that any genuinely deep pocketed new owner would want to explore the prospect of a new stadium, so how would fans feel if a move was a prerequisite to new owners investing say £100-200m?
If the likes of Arsenal, West Ham and Man City can move stadiums (let alone fully 11 of the current Championship), then surely we can at least contemplate it (regardless of the emotional attachment) if it gave us a brighter future?
Westcombe Park ? Hardly a short stroll is it ? I don't think any of those 5 car parks would be cheap to use either.
As for boat, I can't see many fans sailing from Bexley or other north Kent areas.
Looking at the plans on the greenwich website, Looks like westcombe park might end up connected to the DLR. That would be their attempt to winng the transport concern fans.
Even though i'm a post Valley Party fan, I feel any move would be a big slap in the face of all those that fought so hard.
What was ave attendance the last full season at valley compared to that first nearly full season at selhurst?
What is the relevance? In that scenario we were not moving to a shiny new stadium to call our own, we were being forced to camp at a local rival's run down stadium.
Just wondered what percent of fans we lost. That is all.
Westcombe Park ? Hardly a short stroll is it ? I don't think any of those 5 car parks would be cheap to use either.
As for boat, I can't see many fans sailing from Bexley or other north Kent areas.
Looking at the plans on the greenwich website, Looks like westcombe park might end up connected to the DLR. That would be their attempt to winng the transport concern fans.
Even though i'm a post Valley Party fan, I feel any move would be a big slap in the face of all those that fought so hard.
Small point here, but IF that DLR extension gets built - and its a very big 'if', it will take an about ten years to build, probably longer.
nth london addick said: it shouldnt be discussed it has no value in discussion it is a ludicrous idea,
Just for once, I don't agree with you. If we look like we are just being emotional, they will counter with 'emotion doesn't fund 7m/year'. We have to argue on the business case. Don't worry mate, I haven't gone all boardroom..
nth london addick said: it shouldnt be discussed it has no value in discussion it is a ludicrous idea,
Just for once, I don't agree with you. If we look like we are just being emotional, they will counter with 'emotion doesn't fund 7m/year'. We have to argue on the business case. Don't worry mate, I haven't gone all boardroom..
Emotion motivates football fans though so if there are others like me who will stop going if we move then emotion is part of an alternative business case.
Maybe we need another of Seriously Red's surveys to try and gauge views beyond the threads on here.
I need to think about this more seriously tomorrow with a clear head.
When we lost the Valley before, all I cared about was getting back. Younger, more rebellious? Definitely, I just wanted to fight them and get our ground back.
Now? I still dont want to leave the Valley ...but if it means my 3 year old grandson has a team called Charlton Athletic to follow when he is older, it may be a price that has to be paid.
But ...we cannot give in easily ...a fight is needed first.
I need to think about this more seriously tomorrow with a clear head.
When we lost the Valley before, all I cared about was getting back. Younger, more rebellious? Definitely, I just wanted to fight them and get our ground back.
Now? I still dont want to leave the Valley ...but if it means my 3 year old grandson has a team called Charlton Athletic to follow when he is older, it may be a price that has to be paid.
But ...we cannot give in easily ...a fight is needed first.
Like most I would rather we stay at The Valley. While respecting the views of those who say they would stop going to games in the event the club moving to a new stadium about 1.5 miles away, I can't pretend to understand that position. If it happens (and I still think it very unlikely) the club would still be resident in its historical borough, not a million miles away from the patches of waste ground and the streets that saw it created by those boys in 1905. This would not be a Selhurst Park scenario. If (and I would need to be mightily convinced) a move meant that the club's long term future was strengthened I would reluctantly support it. I would NEVER stop supporting the club.
I am in general agreement with this. The move to Selhurst was foisted on us without even prior knowledge. We were sharing their ground. This, for me, is a wholly different scenario to our own new ground elsewhere in Greenwich. I'm not saying I would be happy but its a scenario I'm prepared to entertain.
I understand the emotion that the question of the Valley brings. If a new stadium was well placed, owned by the club, and all the proceeds of any sale went back into the club to ensure its strength and ability to prosper and grow, with proper transport / parking arrangements for those coming from Kent and beyond alongside close tube links then you can see it as potentially something to be discussed.
I don't trust MS and TJ in part of that process as to how much money would go into their pockets. Doing a Coventry in regards to the stadium would not be a good idea.
But I don't think TJ / MS would do it as they want out as quick as they reasonably can. It is more like getting outline planning permission or agreement on change of use, it just adds to the price that can sell the club for. The peninsular development plan is for 2027 or something and the whole thing is unlikely to happen quickly. Not quickly enough to save TJ or MS' skin. Any move under that this plan would be unlikely to happen under TJ / MS watch.
Right, I am going to bang on a bit here, but please try to stick with me.
Several times newyorkaddick in particular has told us to "set aside" the emotional argument. In one sense, as I said to nla just now, he's right.
However, its important to recognise that when evaluating the business case for a move, emotion is a big factor to consider. We need to consider the CAFC brand
A brand is something which has emotional qualities which people pay extra to enjoy. So a cola is a brown fizzy drink. It could cost 50p. Coca -Cola is Coca-Cola. People will pay 60p because of that. The difference is not rational, it is sheer emotion. That is why the Coca Cola logo and design is essentially unchanged for 100 years, and why the company still shudders at the mistake they made when they tampered with the recipe. Big brands have an asset value which is shown on the balance sheet.
Football clubs are brands. There is very little cold rationality about how we choose to spend money watching club football. Now my worry is that in CAFC's case, the Valley is a BIG part of the brand, far bigger than the old grounds of the likes of Hull, Leicester, Middlesbrough, etc. Most fans know something about the Battle for the Valley. They take pride in it, even if they only know it from what their Dads told them. And it is still called The Valley. For all their supposed mistakes, the present/ previous Board never tried to rename it the Andrews Air Conditioning Stadium or whatever.
If we are on the up, and move into a new stadium with a decent Prem team, we will probably fill a 30-35k stadium. But have we not learnt that nothing in football is guaranteed? When we start to fall again, that's when the brand helps keep attendances higher than they would otherwise be.
When we went to Selhurst there were two different stages where I felt like giving up. There was the first stage, it was white hot fury, I wasnt going on principle. But then the exploits of the team dragged me back. But there was another time later on. When we were in the First Division but losing a lot. Playing in front of 5000 at Selhurst. An alien place. Nothing to do with where I came from, where my memories were. A voice inside me said " they call it Charlton Athletic, but what has this got to do with the Charlton I grew up with?" it was not white hot anger. It was cold indifference. The most dangerous attitude a business can create in its customers. Fortunately just at that moment something came along which reignited my connection with the brand - a piece of paper called Voice of the Valley. But it was in the nick of time.
That is what I worry about. The peninsula on a cold windy Tuesday night. We are 15th in the second division, after relegation the previous year. We've just been stuffed 3-0 by fan owned AFC Wimbledon. Chris Powell is just a memory, he is leading Swansea on their European odyssey. I drive past the social houses where the Valley was, and I think, no, I have no affinity with this. It was all in my past. This thing that calls itself CAFC, it doesnt want me. I am not going to bother any more.
Emotion is a powerful part of the business equation.
I don't buy into this idea that a move to the peninsular would suddenly make us a huge draw for floating fans wanting to see a football game. Arsenal and Chelsea are the obvious choices for corparate entertainment and West Ham will have thousands of tickets going spare when they move.
The success we had growing our supporter base before was due to a combination of being premier league, a huge surge in popularity of football decent marketing and having a good team. Even then we hit a limit and didn't sell out for some high profile games and we've seen how quickly crowds have fallen away over the last few seasons.
I've no idea how much the Valley costs to maintain but surely selling it and renting would only benefit the owners who could pocket a nice lump sum and leave someone else to worry about paying the rent going forward.
Prague, don't get me wrong as I understand these feelings BUT I look at all the other Clubs that have moved to new stadia. Did not their fans have these concerns? Were their fans not torn over leaving behind their history? Of course they were. Some Clubs have moved and prospered, some have moved and been relegated, maybe more thn once, but this would have happened even if they had stayed put. I'm not saying I want us to move. It will take a lot of convincing me to do so. I will be dead against it if the new stadia was not owned by the Club. I think it's shortsighted to say The Valley is our home I'm never going to agree to leave it. If a sound business reason was put forward it would deserve proper consideration, in my opinion.
I have to agree too with a recent poster. This won't happen under the watch of the Dynamic Duo because they will be long gone. They want out ASAP and any move is a long way off. They have mooted the possibility to make the sale of the Club more appealing. I'm not even of the opinion that they discussed it with Greenwich Council in any way, shape or form. Other claims in the 'prospectus' show that they are clutching at straws. I'm more concerned at the moment about them running out of funds, jacking it in or putting us into admin.
A late addition to this thread which is full of both the rational AND the emotion around this subject... Firstly CAFC have moved to a new ground - just that it is sited on top of the old one! The books show that alongside the £5M freehold there is over £27M of leasehold assets... just numbers but the first part of a case for NOT moving just yet. The Valley does a job right now and we've had some good days and nights there recently after 5 years of decline.
People are bandying millions around but, without putting a specific number on it, I would venture that the cost of securing a place in the play-offs for a few years running and winning promotion to the Premier League is a lot cheaper than any new stadium... so to me the priority has to be the playing squad right now because that is what will bring more people in and winning the play offs is worth a guaranteed £120M even if you come down the following year. Now that's a buisness case! If you are going to invest then look at the optimum case for NPV (value of cashflow coming back to you over 5 years)
Someone else builds and CAFC pay rent - been there done that! While staying in the Championship this simply doesn't fly - look at all clubs who have done sale and leaseback and they simply build in another creditor to pay when cashflow is already negative - I give you Portsmouth, Coventry and of course CAFC, then CAFC 1984 ltd. Again focus on promotion
The directors / owners are trying to get their money back? not sure what the Valley is worth in one of these schemes but probably not as much as the assets as a football venue and there is a £5M mortgage. Why would you loan a football club £15M over two years in order to "cash in" on one of the assets? I would be interested if anyone with the relevant experience could give a value on The Valley to add to this discussion - I suspect it is nowhere near the current valuation in CAFC books but I don't really know... without this number it's very difficult to estimate the attractiveness of such a proposition. As Airman/VotV states perhaps it's in the brochure to spice up some interest?
Location - why Greenwich at all? If you were going to move then do what Airman has done and analyse where the fanbase lives - as NY Addick states, Ebbsfleet looks interesting - Airman (and Trust surveys) suggest this is the centre of the fanbase is indeed somewhere around Ebbsfleet but KEH appear to have got there first!
So the supporters Trust will have to discuss this and a lot more at the next meeting and then go and find out what all the fans feel... We have already started the ACV petition and it will be interesting to see the take up in the wake of this debate and VotV. if we did do a survey on it then we would obviously have to be extremely careful with the structure and wording of the questions - at present Razil, myself and others design surveys but any professional expertise would be most welcome.
We will be running a stall at the Doncaster game and all help would be much appreciated
Right, I am going to bang on a bit here, but please try to stick with me.
Several times newyorkaddick in particular has told us to "set aside" the emotional argument. In one sense, as I said to nla just now, he's right.
However, its important to recognise that when evaluating the business case for a move, emotion is a big factor to consider. We need to consider the CAFC brand
A brand is something which has emotional qualities which people pay extra to enjoy. So a cola is a brown fizzy drink. It could cost 50p. Coca -Cola is Coca-Cola. People will pay 60p because of that. The difference is not rational, it is sheer emotion. That is why the Coca Cola logo and design is essentially unchanged for 100 years, and why the company still shudders at the mistake they made when they tampered with the recipe. Big brands have an asset value which is shown on the balance sheet.
Football clubs are brands. There is very little cold rationality about how we choose to spend money watching club football.
Emotion is a powerful part of the business equation.
Emotion is indeed a powerful part of brand management - about time someone tried to leverage it?
Playing devil's advocate again. Let's say your favorite band re-formed after 10 years for a gig at the O2 and in the past you always saw them at Wembley, would you say "I'm not going because it's not at Wembley"?
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Location - why Greenwich at all? If you were going to move then do what Airman has done and analyse where the fanbase lives - as NY Addick states, Ebbsfleet looks interesting - Airman (and Trust surveys) suggest this is the centre of the fanbase is indeed somewhere around Ebbsfleet but KEH appear to have got there first!
SR
Yep, funny that.
Someone knows roughly where the centre of Charlton (a club potentially on the decline) support is, and before you know it, a 'mini-Charlton' appears to emerge right in the centre of it......
Comments
read the line about world wide brand we are charlton FFS not Arsenal/ Man u
I think we might benefit from avoiding considering such logistics as showstoppers from whatever angle. With such a development, these will all be a big part of the consideration and some kind of solution will be found, even if not perfect.
I don't think there's much to argue that the master plan will provide for better public transport links than are currently available at the Valley. This isn't really the point for me.
As for boat, I can't see many fans sailing from Bexley or other north Kent areas.
I am far from convinced that even if by some miracle we won promotion in the next couple of seasons that we would sell out The Valley again - at best we become a yo yo club (and as I say would be a miracle if we achieved even that the way things are).
I am confident that any genuinely deep pocketed new owner would want to explore the prospect of a new stadium, so how would fans feel if a move was a prerequisite to new owners investing say £100-200m?
If the likes of Arsenal, West Ham and Man City can move stadiums (let alone fully 11 of the current Championship), then surely we can at least contemplate it (regardless of the emotional attachment) if it gave us a brighter future?
Even though i'm a post Valley Party fan, I feel any move would be a big slap in the face of all those that fought so hard.
it shouldnt be discussed it has no value in discussion it is a ludicrous idea,
Just for once, I don't agree with you. If we look like we are just being emotional, they will counter with 'emotion doesn't fund 7m/year'. We have to argue on the business case. Don't worry mate, I haven't gone all boardroom..
Maybe we need another of Seriously Red's surveys to try and gauge views beyond the threads on here.
When we lost the Valley before, all I cared about was getting back. Younger, more rebellious? Definitely, I just wanted to fight them and get our ground back.
Now? I still dont want to leave the Valley ...but if it means my 3 year old grandson has a team called Charlton Athletic to follow when he is older, it may be a price that has to be paid.
But ...we cannot give in easily ...a fight is needed first.
I don't trust MS and TJ in part of that process as to how much money would go into their pockets. Doing a Coventry in regards to the stadium would not be a good idea.
But I don't think TJ / MS would do it as they want out as quick as they reasonably can. It is more like getting outline planning permission or agreement on change of use, it just adds to the price that can sell the club for. The peninsular development plan is for 2027 or something and the whole thing is unlikely to happen quickly. Not quickly enough to save TJ or MS' skin. Any move under that this plan would be unlikely to happen under TJ / MS watch.
Several times newyorkaddick in particular has told us to "set aside" the emotional argument. In one sense, as I said to nla just now, he's right.
However, its important to recognise that when evaluating the business case for a move, emotion is a big factor to consider. We need to consider the CAFC brand
A brand is something which has emotional qualities which people pay extra to enjoy. So a cola is a brown fizzy drink. It could cost 50p. Coca -Cola is Coca-Cola. People will pay 60p because of that. The difference is not rational, it is sheer emotion. That is why the Coca Cola logo and design is essentially unchanged for 100 years, and why the company still shudders at the mistake they made when they tampered with the recipe. Big brands have an asset value which is shown on the balance sheet.
Football clubs are brands. There is very little cold rationality about how we choose to spend money watching club football. Now my worry is that in CAFC's case, the Valley is a BIG part of the brand, far bigger than the old grounds of the likes of Hull, Leicester, Middlesbrough, etc. Most fans know something about the Battle for the Valley. They take pride in it, even if they only know it from what their Dads told them. And it is still called The Valley. For all their supposed mistakes, the present/ previous Board never tried to rename it the Andrews Air Conditioning Stadium or whatever.
If we are on the up, and move into a new stadium with a decent Prem team, we will probably fill a 30-35k stadium. But have we not learnt that nothing in football is guaranteed? When we start to fall again, that's when the brand helps keep attendances higher than they would otherwise be.
When we went to Selhurst there were two different stages where I felt like giving up. There was the first stage, it was white hot fury, I wasnt going on principle. But then the exploits of the team dragged me back. But there was another time later on. When we were in the First Division but losing a lot. Playing in front of 5000 at Selhurst. An alien place. Nothing to do with where I came from, where my memories were. A voice inside me said " they call it Charlton Athletic, but what has this got to do with the Charlton I grew up with?" it was not white hot anger. It was cold indifference. The most dangerous attitude a business can create in its customers. Fortunately just at that moment something came along which reignited my connection with the brand - a piece of paper called Voice of the Valley. But it was in the nick of time.
That is what I worry about. The peninsula on a cold windy Tuesday night. We are 15th in the second division, after relegation the previous year. We've just been stuffed 3-0 by fan owned AFC Wimbledon. Chris Powell is just a memory, he is leading Swansea on their European odyssey. I drive past the social houses where the Valley was, and I think, no, I have no affinity with this. It was all in my past. This thing that calls itself CAFC, it doesnt want me. I am not going to bother any more.
Emotion is a powerful part of the business equation.
The success we had growing our supporter base before was due to a combination of being premier league, a huge surge in popularity of football decent marketing and having a good team. Even then we hit a limit and didn't sell out for some high profile games and we've seen how quickly crowds have fallen away over the last few seasons.
I've no idea how much the Valley costs to maintain but surely selling it and renting would only benefit the owners who could pocket a nice lump sum and leave someone else to worry about paying the rent going forward.
I have to agree too with a recent poster. This won't happen under the watch of the Dynamic Duo because they will be long gone. They want out ASAP and any move is a long way off. They have mooted the possibility to make the sale of the Club more appealing. I'm not even of the opinion that they discussed it with Greenwich Council in any way, shape or form. Other claims in the 'prospectus' show that they are clutching at straws. I'm more concerned at the moment about them running out of funds, jacking it in or putting us into admin.
But not owing the ground being a tennant no chance
People are bandying millions around but, without putting a specific number on it, I would venture that the cost of securing a place in the play-offs for a few years running and winning promotion to the Premier League is a lot cheaper than any new stadium... so to me the priority has to be the playing squad right now because that is what will bring more people in and winning the play offs is worth a guaranteed £120M even if you come down the following year. Now that's a buisness case! If you are going to invest then look at the optimum case for NPV (value of cashflow coming back to you over 5 years)
Someone else builds and CAFC pay rent - been there done that! While staying in the Championship this simply doesn't fly - look at all clubs who have done sale and leaseback and they simply build in another creditor to pay when cashflow is already negative - I give you Portsmouth, Coventry and of course CAFC, then CAFC 1984 ltd. Again focus on promotion
The directors / owners are trying to get their money back? not sure what the Valley is worth in one of these schemes but probably not as much as the assets as a football venue and there is a £5M mortgage. Why would you loan a football club £15M over two years in order to "cash in" on one of the assets? I would be interested if anyone with the relevant experience could give a value on The Valley to add to this discussion - I suspect it is nowhere near the current valuation in CAFC books but I don't really know... without this number it's very difficult to estimate the attractiveness of such a proposition. As Airman/VotV states perhaps it's in the brochure to spice up some interest?
Location - why Greenwich at all? If you were going to move then do what Airman has done and analyse where the fanbase lives - as NY Addick states, Ebbsfleet looks interesting - Airman (and Trust surveys) suggest this is the centre of the fanbase is indeed somewhere around Ebbsfleet but KEH appear to have got there first!
So the supporters Trust will have to discuss this and a lot more at the next meeting and then go and find out what all the fans feel... We have already started the ACV petition and it will be interesting to see the take up in the wake of this debate and VotV. if we did do a survey on it then we would obviously have to be extremely careful with the structure and wording of the questions - at present Razil, myself and others design surveys but any professional expertise would be most welcome.
We will be running a stall at the Doncaster game and all help would be much appreciated
SR
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Someone knows roughly where the centre of Charlton (a club potentially on the decline) support is, and before you know it, a 'mini-Charlton' appears to emerge right in the centre of it......