I no longer care if students study for the 'joy' of studying or for their future job prospects, the choice is entirely theirs, I am just glad us taxpayers no longer pick up the tab for them.
Apart from long term up-front loans that will probably in many cases not be paid back?
I feel for you, but you must remember one thing, that is you must enjoy whatever you decide to do as you will be working it that profession for a very long time. You must work out if you want work as for example with your hands, then consider engineering.
If you when you decide then an apprentiship my be appropriate and this might include day release to college. But as with all work there is many aspect to engineering you might think you fancy specialising and becoming say a mechanic, that would lead you down a different path to say an electrician.
You have many choices out there, each choice will lead down a path, off these paths there are many forks, one of these forks will be the one that will lead you to your destination, the problem you got is to find that route which is correct for you. Blimey that's deep.
I have managed it, like you I got no qualifications, I just somehow got a job when I left school, showed enthusiasm, and people passed their knowledge on to me, I started as a trainee earning £1.50 a week when the average wage was £50 / week, worked my way up through various companies and ended up owning my own employing 24 people and turning over more than Charlton does, it is possible, its hard work, its long hours, its stressful, but more importantly its fun because I enjoy every minute of my working day, including the bad bits. Last week we had a meeting to discuss an appointment of a key worker whose position would eventually lead him to become a board member of my company, all my most trusted members of staff where there, 4 off sitting around the table, the job description was agreed upon and then we where discussing that required educational qualification, minimum of BsC was agreed upon, I laughed looked around the table and realised that not 1 of us had passed our 11+ :-).
Wish you luck, but that first step of deciding what you want to do is the most important step you'll ever take, no pressure then.
Kerry, you must be so proud of what you've achieved - especially with out the benefit of higher education.
To achieve what you have done is so, so rare. However, I don't think your post emphasised, enough, how hard you must have worked. I fear that when people in your position share your achievements, and modesty prevents you from expressing just how successful you have been, relative to others with the same opportunities as you, it can give the younger generation the wrong impression.
At the risk of upsetting people (which I, genuinely, take no pleasure in) University is no longer the elite institution that it once was. Back in the 70s about 2% of the population went. They were the cream of their generation. They would go on to be successful, and probably would have done if they'd not stayed on in education. These days over 40% of each year group goes to University (if it can be called that). Clearly this means that many of them are not going to get the 'Graduate position' they want. Simple maths tells us that if 50% of the population have a degree (and I think this is the target, currently) then there are going to many graduates with jobs that were, once, thought to be beneath them.
The truth is that with a good degree from a Russell Group University the options open to 21 year olds are still fantastic. Those with a poor degree from a colleague that didn't exist ten years ago, that is only there to make money from the excessive fees that youngsters have to borrow will not, really, enhance any career prospects.
Where you're complete correct with what you say Kerry is that the degree is not the difference, but the attitude of those that work hard to get into a good University, and then work hard while they are there is what will make the difference.
I fear that someone that was given the support from their family to study A Levels and who has not worked hard enough and failed to achieve what was needed is probably not going to have the work ethic that you have.
Incidentally, for every one that has the success you have had Kerry, there are, literally, thousands that have failed, and many of them worked hard too. For those that are a little work shy and aspire to run their own businesses, especially if they've had a good lifestyle because that's what their family have done, there is a shock as to how hard one works behind the scenes.
I don't really know what the best advice is for someone that I've never met, but I would just want to balance your success story with pointing out that it is rare, and you probably worked very, very hard to get there and people need to recognise that because you make it sound like it is possible (maybe even easy) to replicate it, and I suspect that it is not.
Do I think university helped me where I got today? Not particularly to be honest because I good break in a marketing role before I'd actually graduated and started something I really enjoyed.
That being said I loved university. I loved the life experiences it offered of being independent, I loved the life friends I made and I think it helped shaped me as a person.
Not sure if I'd do it now with the costs etc but you get so much more out of 3 years away from home and at university than just a degree in my opinion.
Of course you are totally right King Hills Addick, I have worked hard, I have made tremendous sacrifices as have my wife and kids, I never witness there first steps, words, school play etc., I was out there gaining experience and learning, whilst my good lady brought the kids up and acted as their mentor, mother and often father, but that is what we agreed to do, once they came along. To build a career and be successful you have to be determined, bloody minded, and good at your profession, there are no short cuts, I sacrificed everything (with my wife's approval) even went a year without wages to live my (our) dream.
But the point I was trying to make probably badly, is if you have not only got the love of your family, your job, then you can overcome everything else, this includes failure, eventually success will come. My first company wasn't a failure but we where naive, we had success but we didn't invest, the second time I learnt from my mistakes, those mistakes cost me a lot both in monetary and physical terms, but emotionally as well plus put additional strain on family life. The struggle to get through this period affected everyone, but we eventually made it, although financially it still hurts now.
I scoff at my education, but I was taught the basic extremely well and these stayed with me for life, they drummed into me the ethics of hard work, that the saying you don't get ought for nought is so very true. I am also a bit of an awkward character and if someone says I can't do something then, I will just to show them, classic example of this is when I was setting out, my technical drawing teacher stood in front of the class and told ever one present that I would not make the grade as a draughtsman, I became the most highly paid draughtsman in my industry, and i have great pleasure in that story some 40 years on. I actually think I benefitted by not having higher education, but that was a decision that was taken out of my hands, I was dragged up in the poor end of Dartford and it was poor, I was expected to go straight from school to work to earn money for the family, could I have gone to university not certain, but the opportunity wasn't available. But my mother and father did sacrifice money for my advancement by letting me become a trainee.
If I made my success seem easy then I apologise it wasn't and it took a long time to achieve, many people suffered for my ambition, including my wife and family, how ever I did succeed and yes I am extremely proud of that fact, but I did it with no formal education. Your point re the many thousands that failed is very valid and as I said, I failed, but I got back on the horse and learnt how to do ride again, it was painful, and who knows another riding lesson could be coming my way again, one day, hope not, as I am getting to old to do it all again. I believe some may say naively that we can all achieve success, a long as you (your immediate family) are prepared to have the correct work ethic, willing to take calculated risks and here the important point, enjoy what you do, I have to sometime I work in excess of a 100 hours a week, I get phone calls at 3 in the morning, I have to deal with the most annoying people, I have to be nice to the bank manager, etc etc.. When I get down, I do think of what I have achieved, I also think of my 24 mates and their families who I work alongside, I realise that they are depending on me to pay their mortgage, bring youngster into the world, and for some stupid reason, that cheers me up and stops me telling the bank manager what I think of him.
For those of you thinking about your A levels university etc., I hope my experiences will help you, yes, in the end I have got there, and its been a tremendous journey, if I can, then why can't you?
Going to university is much more than studying for a qualification that will enhance your career prospects. The social, cultural and wider academic aspects of attending university can be life-changing. In my case, three years at Aston University in the centre of Birmingham in the early 1980s gave me a good degree and many wonderful and formative experiences. I edited the fortnightly students' newspaper, and was introduced to the photographic darkroom in the students' union. This latter proved seminal, because I went on to make a successful career as a photographer for magazines for thirty years. And crucially, I made friendships at university that are still strong and healthy thirty years later. So, I would advise anyone to seize the opportunity of a university education with both hands. Very best wishes for whatever you choose to do, LilAddick, and keep us posted with your progress.
I was in a very similar situation to you, I flunked my a levels (put no effort in) in 2010 and didn't go to uni.
Instead I applied for an apprenticeship doing IT (application development) in the City, this gave me so much drive and really kicked my life into gear. After completing my apprenticeship (which gave me a BTEC - 3 A Levels) I then decided to go to University and study Computer Science at Liverpool, I completed my first year in May and finished with 1st class. Yes, first year isn't that challenging and doesn't count but it gave me so much confidence to know that I can apply myself academically. I found it hard to apply myself at A Level as I couldn't see how I was going to use the knowledge in a job so I didn't take it all that seriously. But undertaking an apprenticeship showed to me what it's like to work and allowed me to see how skills are applied.
Due to the work experience I gained from my apprenticeship and marks achieved in my first year at uni, I was actually headhunted by Barclays Capital and was asked to apply for a internship for the summer - to which I am now working there this summer at Canary Wharf.
I would really suggest to explore apprenticeships, there's so many companies out there doing them now. They also generally give you qualifications/experience that can easily get you into uni or climbing the job ladder, gives you lots of options. It changed my life completely.
I went to University to study Physics 28 years ago, when they actually paid you to go. It was a great life experience but very little of what I learned academically have I ever applied in my career since. I'm a finance director now and when recruiting its your experience and how your personality will fit with the rest of the team rather than your education that's important.
Going to university these days without a clear view on what you want to do with your life can be an expensive mistake. I've a 17 year old daughter who will be making this choice this time next year but she has a very clear idea (she wants to be a vet). My 14 year old son has no clue currently, and I'm convinced the next 3 years won't change that. His only idea currently is that he wants to go to Uni in london so he can get a CAFC season ticket! (we live in Devon). When his time comes if he still has no clue, I'll be advising him to look for a job in London rather than a degree until he has that clarity, though I'm sure he'll make up his own mind at that point!
" I don't want to attract unwanted criticism but I would say that it is very common for successful people that didn't go to university to feel disappointed that they didn't go. If you have an opportunity to go I don't personally see a down side. It is great fun, it allows one to study a subject to a very high level and it ensures that what ever one does and where ever one goes that will always have a degree."
In my experience (of not having gone to university) this is something that university goers "think we think". I had great fun at my first job, went out drinking a lot , socialised a lot, met loads of new people and studied the work I was doing to learn more about it. All the things university goers associate with university. In my opinion these are acutally things associated with being between 18 and 22, not the preserve of the university goer.
I have come across this 'you missed out' attitude a lot' but of all the poeple I know who didn't go, none feel this. It is true that some decided to go to university later in life and study something, but because they wanted to progess their learning, not 'get that university feling'.
You do not go through the same university lifestyle when you go when you are older. Which is also why I think people are wrong to assosciate that time of life with university or 'student life'.
Not sure this will make sense to anyone who is not me!
I left school with 3 decent A levels but for a number of reasons didn't go to Uni. Back in my day you could get a full grant and tutition was free as well so we didn't have to face the potential debt that youngsters do now. What I did was whilst working I completed my degree part time, it took five years and was a slog but I came out of it with no debt, plenty of work experience and a decent qualification that has by and large served me well although like Imnot I rarely use the academic stuff.
I would really advise that if you can find an opportunity that will allow you to get qualified whilst working then take it as it can be a really good way of getting in front of the game. There are too many worthless degrees out there which neither educate or make anyone employable I am afraid. Certainly a degree in Maths from Imperial College will be looked on favourably but a degree in Media Studies from some ex polytechnic uni will not seperate you from the crowd.
Speaking from my own experience. I left school with 4 reasonable A levels, but like yourself had no end game in sight. I chose not to go to university much like you.
I ventured out into the working world and found a job with a reputable high street bank. Having worked there for 9 years, I became the youngest financial advisor ever employed in that establishment. Since then I have managed an estate agents and am currently running my own fruit and veg wholesale business and I do rather well at the moment.
I am not afraid of a days graft or putting in that little bit extra work to get the end result. Find out what motivates you (money, achievements etc) then you can justify the workload you put upon yourself.
Before starting your own business, ensure you do your research. Is there a need? where? when? costs? etc.
Having managed branches of 2 major companies and subsequently 2 of my own companies, if I can offer you any further advice please just ask.
Nathan does have a valid point about employers - it is cheaper (and lazier) to recruit graduates but there is a reason for it - they tend to have a much lower wastage rate. (Although a higher starting salary). Recruiting someone who has been educated to degree standard has its benefits. First it gives a prospective boss an indication that the individual has, at least, a certain level of brain power . Second, a degree demonstrates that an individual has the ability to apply themselves to a task. Anyway, LilAddick, I didn't have a degree-level education but amusingly spent some time recruiting, training, mentoring and managing them! So it doesn't stop you if you are determined (or lucky?!) Good Luck. BTW, something like attendance at an LSE Summer School management course pretty much packs a year of a degree course into a few weeks and is highly regarded if expensive and intensive.
Employers want their employees to cost them as little as possible so if you have a qualification then they will tell you it's worthless because they're two a penny however if you don't have it then it's the most important thing since sliced bread.
Luck can play a big part in that if your face fits and you are in the right place at the right time opportunities can present themselves regardless of qualification.
A friend of mine left school with a mixture of "O"levels and CSEs and worked her way up, in a fairly large organisation, from junior typist to company secretary as one example.
" I don't want to attract unwanted criticism but I would say that it is very common for successful people that didn't go to university to feel disappointed that they didn't go. If you have an opportunity to go I don't personally see a down side. It is great fun, it allows one to study a subject to a very high level and it ensures that what ever one does and where ever one goes that will always have a degree."
In my experience (of not having gone to university) this is something that university goers "think we think". I had great fun at my first job, went out drinking a lot , socialised a lot, met loads of new people and studied the work I was doing to learn more about it. All the things university goers associate with university. In my opinion these are acutally things associated with being between 18 and 22, not the preserve of the university goer.
I have come across this 'you missed out' attitude a lot' but of all the poeple I know who didn't go, none feel this. It is true that some decided to go to university later in life and study something, but because they wanted to progess their learning, not 'get that university feling'.
You do not go through the same university lifestyle when you go when you are older. Which is also why I think people are wrong to assosciate that time of life with university or 'student life'.
Not sure this will make sense to anyone who is not me!
I wasn't suggesting that non-graduates don't enjoy their late teens and early twenties. What I was referring to is the significant numbe of people I've met in my life that have a bit of a chip on their shoulder about not going to university. I don't think there is a distinct difference between the fun one can have during those years but is it often in thirties and forties when those that didn't go tend to rue the decision.
Clearly most of these people are reluctant to admit that they feel this way but I don't know anyone that went that gets to forty and wishes they hadn't.
I know this sounds elitist, but education is something that can never be taken way from you, but can't be given, it has to be earned. With the debts these days it is possible that more and more will wish they'd passed, but a good degree from a better University will never be a disadvantage.
Comments
If you when you decide then an apprentiship my be appropriate and this might include day release to college. But as with all work there is many aspect to engineering you might think you fancy specialising and becoming say a mechanic, that would lead you down a different path to say an electrician.
You have many choices out there, each choice will lead down a path, off these paths there are many forks, one of these forks will be the one that will lead you to your destination, the problem you got is to find that route which is correct for you. Blimey that's deep.
I have managed it, like you I got no qualifications, I just somehow got a job when I left school, showed enthusiasm, and people passed their knowledge on to me, I started as a trainee earning £1.50 a week when the average wage was £50 / week, worked my way up through various companies and ended up owning my own employing 24 people and turning over more than Charlton does, it is possible, its hard work, its long hours, its stressful, but more importantly its fun because I enjoy every minute of my working day, including the bad bits. Last week we had a meeting to discuss an appointment of a key worker whose position would eventually lead him to become a board member of my company, all my most trusted members of staff where there, 4 off sitting around the table, the job description was agreed upon and then we where discussing that required educational qualification, minimum of BsC was agreed upon, I laughed looked around the table and realised that not 1 of us had passed our 11+ :-).
Wish you luck, but that first step of deciding what you want to do is the most important step you'll ever take, no pressure then.
To achieve what you have done is so, so rare. However, I don't think your post emphasised, enough, how hard you must have worked. I fear that when people in your position share your achievements, and modesty prevents you from expressing just how successful you have been, relative to others with the same opportunities as you, it can give the younger generation the wrong impression.
At the risk of upsetting people (which I, genuinely, take no pleasure in) University is no longer the elite institution that it once was. Back in the 70s about 2% of the population went. They were the cream of their generation. They would go on to be successful, and probably would have done if they'd not stayed on in education. These days over 40% of each year group goes to University (if it can be called that). Clearly this means that many of them are not going to get the 'Graduate position' they want. Simple maths tells us that if 50% of the population have a degree (and I think this is the target, currently) then there are going to many graduates with jobs that were, once, thought to be beneath them.
The truth is that with a good degree from a Russell Group University the options open to 21 year olds are still fantastic. Those with a poor degree from a colleague that didn't exist ten years ago, that is only there to make money from the excessive fees that youngsters have to borrow will not, really, enhance any career prospects.
Where you're complete correct with what you say Kerry is that the degree is not the difference, but the attitude of those that work hard to get into a good University, and then work hard while they are there is what will make the difference.
I fear that someone that was given the support from their family to study A Levels and who has not worked hard enough and failed to achieve what was needed is probably not going to have the work ethic that you have.
Incidentally, for every one that has the success you have had Kerry, there are, literally, thousands that have failed, and many of them worked hard too. For those that are a little work shy and aspire to run their own businesses, especially if they've had a good lifestyle because that's what their family have done, there is a shock as to how hard one works behind the scenes.
I don't really know what the best advice is for someone that I've never met, but I would just want to balance your success story with pointing out that it is rare, and you probably worked very, very hard to get there and people need to recognise that because you make it sound like it is possible (maybe even easy) to replicate it, and I suspect that it is not.
That being said I loved university. I loved the life experiences it offered of being independent, I loved the life friends I made and I think it helped shaped me as a person.
Not sure if I'd do it now with the costs etc but you get so much more out of 3 years away from home and at university than just a degree in my opinion.
But the point I was trying to make probably badly, is if you have not only got the love of your family, your job, then you can overcome everything else, this includes failure, eventually success will come. My first company wasn't a failure but we where naive, we had success but we didn't invest, the second time I learnt from my mistakes, those mistakes cost me a lot both in monetary and physical terms, but emotionally as well plus put additional strain on family life. The struggle to get through this period affected everyone, but we eventually made it, although financially it still hurts now.
I scoff at my education, but I was taught the basic extremely well and these stayed with me for life, they drummed into me the ethics of hard work, that the saying you don't get ought for nought is so very true. I am also a bit of an awkward character and if someone says I can't do something then, I will just to show them, classic example of this is when I was setting out, my technical drawing teacher stood in front of the class and told ever one present that I would not make the grade as a draughtsman, I became the most highly paid draughtsman in my industry, and i have great pleasure in that story some 40 years on. I actually think I benefitted by not having higher education, but that was a decision that was taken out of my hands, I was dragged up in the poor end of Dartford and it was poor, I was expected to go straight from school to work to earn money for the family, could I have gone to university not certain, but the opportunity wasn't available. But my mother and father did sacrifice money for my advancement by letting me become a trainee.
If I made my success seem easy then I apologise it wasn't and it took a long time to achieve, many people suffered for my ambition, including my wife and family, how ever I did succeed and yes I am extremely proud of that fact, but I did it with no formal education. Your point re the many thousands that failed is very valid and as I said, I failed, but I got back on the horse and learnt how to do ride again, it was painful, and who knows another riding lesson could be coming my way again, one day, hope not, as I am getting to old to do it all again. I believe some may say naively that we can all achieve success, a long as you (your immediate family) are prepared to have the correct work ethic, willing to take calculated risks and here the important point, enjoy what you do, I have to sometime I work in excess of a 100 hours a week, I get phone calls at 3 in the morning, I have to deal with the most annoying people, I have to be nice to the bank manager, etc etc.. When I get down, I do think of what I have achieved, I also think of my 24 mates and their families who I work alongside, I realise that they are depending on me to pay their mortgage, bring youngster into the world, and for some stupid reason, that cheers me up and stops me telling the bank manager what I think of him.
For those of you thinking about your A levels university etc., I hope my experiences will help you, yes, in the end I have got there, and its been a tremendous journey, if I can, then why can't you?
Instead I applied for an apprenticeship doing IT (application development) in the City, this gave me so much drive and really kicked my life into gear. After completing my apprenticeship (which gave me a BTEC - 3 A Levels) I then decided to go to University and study Computer Science at Liverpool, I completed my first year in May and finished with 1st class. Yes, first year isn't that challenging and doesn't count but it gave me so much confidence to know that I can apply myself academically. I found it hard to apply myself at A Level as I couldn't see how I was going to use the knowledge in a job so I didn't take it all that seriously. But undertaking an apprenticeship showed to me what it's like to work and allowed me to see how skills are applied.
Due to the work experience I gained from my apprenticeship and marks achieved in my first year at uni, I was actually headhunted by Barclays Capital and was asked to apply for a internship for the summer - to which I am now working there this summer at Canary Wharf.
I would really suggest to explore apprenticeships, there's so many companies out there doing them now. They also generally give you qualifications/experience that can easily get you into uni or climbing the job ladder, gives you lots of options. It changed my life completely.
Going to university these days without a clear view on what you want to do with your life can be an expensive mistake. I've a 17 year old daughter who will be making this choice this time next year but she has a very clear idea (she wants to be a vet). My 14 year old son has no clue currently, and I'm convinced the next 3 years won't change that. His only idea currently is that he wants to go to Uni in london so he can get a CAFC season ticket! (we live in Devon). When his time comes if he still has no clue, I'll be advising him to look for a job in London rather than a degree until he has that clarity, though I'm sure he'll make up his own mind at that point!
I don't want to attract unwanted criticism but I would say that it is very common for successful people that didn't go to university to feel disappointed that they didn't go. If you have an opportunity to go I don't personally see a down side. It is great fun, it allows one to study a subject to a very high level and it ensures that what ever one does and where ever one goes that will always have a degree."
In my experience (of not having gone to university) this is something that university goers "think we think". I had great fun at my first job, went out drinking a lot , socialised a lot, met loads of new people and studied the work I was doing to learn more about it. All the things university goers associate with university. In my opinion these are acutally things associated with being between 18 and 22, not the preserve of the university goer.
I have come across this 'you missed out' attitude a lot' but of all the poeple I know who didn't go, none feel this. It is true that some decided to go to university later in life and study something, but because they wanted to progess their learning, not 'get that university feling'.
You do not go through the same university lifestyle when you go when you are older. Which is also why I think people are wrong to assosciate that time of life with university or 'student life'.
Not sure this will make sense to anyone who is not me!
I would really advise that if you can find an opportunity that will allow you to get qualified whilst working then take it as it can be a really good way of getting in front of the game. There are too many worthless degrees out there which neither educate or make anyone employable I am afraid. Certainly a degree in Maths from Imperial College will be looked on favourably but a degree in Media Studies from some ex polytechnic uni will not seperate you from the crowd.
I ventured out into the working world and found a job with a reputable high street bank. Having worked there for 9 years, I became the youngest financial advisor ever employed in that establishment. Since then I have managed an estate agents and am currently running my own fruit and veg wholesale business and I do rather well at the moment.
I am not afraid of a days graft or putting in that little bit extra work to get the end result. Find out what motivates you (money, achievements etc) then you can justify the workload you put upon yourself.
Before starting your own business, ensure you do your research. Is there a need? where? when? costs? etc.
Having managed branches of 2 major companies and subsequently 2 of my own companies, if I can offer you any further advice please just ask.
Good luck.
Recruiting someone who has been educated to degree standard has its benefits. First it gives a prospective boss an indication that the individual has, at least, a certain level of brain power . Second, a degree demonstrates that an individual has the ability to apply themselves to a task.
Anyway, LilAddick, I didn't have a degree-level education but amusingly spent some time recruiting, training, mentoring and managing them! So it doesn't stop you if you are determined (or lucky?!) Good Luck. BTW, something like attendance at an LSE Summer School management course pretty much packs a year of a degree course into a few weeks and is highly regarded if expensive and intensive.
Employers want their employees to cost them as little as possible so if you have a qualification then they will tell you it's worthless because they're two a penny however if you don't have it then it's the most important thing since sliced bread.
Luck can play a big part in that if your face fits and you are in the right place at the right time opportunities can present themselves regardless of qualification.
A friend of mine left school with a mixture of "O"levels and CSEs and worked her way up, in a fairly large organisation, from junior typist to company secretary as one example.
Clearly most of these people are reluctant to admit that they feel this way but I don't know anyone that went that gets to forty and wishes they hadn't.
I know this sounds elitist, but education is something that can never be taken way from you, but can't be given, it has to be earned. With the debts these days it is possible that more and more will wish they'd passed, but a good degree from a better University will never be a disadvantage.