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A blow for individual freedom

not for the benefit of that many I suspect but nevertheless good to see the authoritarian, bullying HMRC (unless it is an international company of course) have to accommodate the people they are supposed to be working for the benefit of rather than act as tin pot dictators.

http://religionlaw.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/beekeeping-god-and-taxes-blackburn-v.html

Comments

  • Computers are part of their lives in some way shape or form.
    They are just being difficult because they can.
    I just wonder a what date does technolgy cut off for them.
  • Mmm - odd one that Len. As they are clearly barking mad, and the religion they supposedly adhere to clearly does not have a problem with the use of computers, then HMRC are right - otherwise we can all say "oh I'm a Rastafarian and I have decided that my personal interpretation of that religion is that I should not pay taxes at all" (A bit like being an "Old Etonian"). The fact that more people are going to have to be employed so that they and others like them can carry on with paper tax returns means the rest of us will have to fork out for the extra staff. But then again more people in work is a good thing, and as you say it is nice that they have not been able to ride rough shod over the rights of citizens, for once. Right decision, wrong reasons IMHO.
  • It's their beliefs rather than their religion's beliefs. They're just being knobs to try and waste a bit of taxpayers' money. Worse than benefit cheats.
  • edited October 2013
    Another example of the EU forcing the UK to accept its way of doing things (in this case the Euro Human Act).

    Oh, the irony.
  • I wonder if they use a telephone as part of their business too?

    They are basically making it up to suit their own preferences as to be awkward buggers and make a point. I am sure, as was the original judge, that the religious exemption was added to take account of situations where the accepted pracitice of religions states that it's members should not use technonolgy like this and NOT where the individuals own interpretation applies.
  • Given the fact that, amongst other facts, the Appellants church does not specifically ban the use of computers and has its own website, I am sure that if the Revenue appeals this case, as I am sure that it will, this decision will be overturned
  • What a load of bollocks. So if I decide that my religion means I cannot obey speed limits then I can't be prosecuted for speeding? Utter bullshit!
  • edited October 2013
    Unfortunately my religion seems to make Charlton unable to beat Millwall!
  • Rizzo said:

    What a load of bollocks. So if I decide that my religion means I cannot obey speed limits then I can't be prosecuted for speeding? Utter bullshit!

    Not quite.

    There is no provision in law for ignoring traffic law on religous grounds but there is provision as to how you submit tax returns.

    That protection was already in UK law so you argue that rather then a victory for religous freedom it is an example of special favourable treatment for the religous.
  • edited October 2013
    Rizzo said:

    What a load of bollocks. So if I decide that my religion means I cannot obey speed limits then I can't be prosecuted for speeding? Utter bullshit!

    They're not refusing to pay VAT. They are quite happy to file quarterly paper returns and send a cheque.

    The objection is to HMRC proscribing that the ONLY way you can pay and file returns, under pain of penalties if you do not, is online.

    Your analogy is thus not correct.

    I suspect that the reality is that they are a small business, barely above the VAT registration limit, and are not computer literate and thus cannot cope with HMRC's draconian regulations. In a free society there should be some flexibility as to how you file and pay.

    I know of small charities that can no longer claim gift aid on donations, which was a substantial boost to their annual income, because of the requirement to now file everything online rather than send the claim form in the post. These charities are run by volunteers some of whom are not computer literate and those that are do not want to be registered on a computer database.

    Again an organisation such as HMRC that supposedly serves the public should have sufficient flexibility to accommodate small organisations in my opinion.



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  • Supporting Charlton is a religion
  • Jayajosh said:

    Supporting Charlton is a religion

    No, Charlton exist
  • LenGlover said:

    Rizzo said:

    What a load of bollocks. So if I decide that my religion means I cannot obey speed limits then I can't be prosecuted for speeding? Utter bullshit!

    They're not refusing to pay VAT. They are quite happy to file quarterly paper returns and send a cheque.

    The objection is to HMRC proscribing that the ONLY way you can pay and file returns, under pain of penalties if you do not, is online.

    Your analogy is thus not correct.

    I suspect that the reality is that they are a small business, barely above the VAT registration limit, and are not computer literate and thus cannot cope with HMRC's draconian regulations. In a free society there should be some flexibility as to how you file and pay.

    I know of small charities that can no longer claim gift aid on donations, which was a substantial boost to their annual income, because of the requirement to now file everything online rather than send the claim form in the post. These charities are run by volunteers some of whom are not computer literate and those that are do not want to be registered on a computer database.

    Again an organisation such as HMRC that supposedly serves the public should have sufficient flexibility to accommodate small organisations in my opinion.

    Sorry Len but that doesn't square with them regarding it as "incompatible with his beliefs to go to the library to use a computer to make a VAT return or to ask someone (such as an agent) to make his online VAT return on his behalf"?

    The fact of the matter is we all have to do stuff we don't like from time to time, it's just these characters think they've found a way around it...at our expense.

  • Rizzo said:

    What a load of bollocks. So if I decide that my religion means I cannot obey speed limits then I can't be prosecuted for speeding? Utter bullshit!

    Not quite.

    There is no provision in law for ignoring traffic law on religous grounds but there is provision as to how you submit tax returns.

    That protection was already in UK law so you argue that rather then a victory for religous freedom it is an example of special favourable treatment for the religous.
    Okay, maybe not a good analogy. The point I was trying to make is that these people made up their own religious belief that is not supported or required by the religion they claim to follow and now enjoy the protection of the Human Rights Act. What a load of crap!

  • So why is this "a blow for individual freedom"?

    I agree with Len - everyone should be able to file and pay how they want. I can see that working perfectly well without any problems whatsoever.
  • Sadly, the Blackburn family will never know how their mighty battle against "the Man" is being debated over the internet!

    Just out of interest...why have they not taken action against the business directory firms which include their business on their websites? Surely a case of someone "using computers on their behalf"!

    Or has no-one told them that this is happening??

  • Natural selection at it's best. One of them gets ill... refuses medication as the doctor's prescription system is on computer.. they don't get better and piss off up to their computer free invisible cloud wizard's heaven in the sky and humanity can move on.
  • you should have more than one option in how you chose to pay for anything
  • you should have more than one option in how you chose to pay for anything

    Don't get me wrong. I totally understand that there should be options available for those who are unable to pay by the preferred method. It's the religious/human rights thing that gets up my nose.

  • I agree

    but the hmrc are just as bad with their stance


    companies that refuse to give you the bill how you want it, like home telephone bills in the old way with numbers how long, when etc

    should be banned also
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  • Religion, all very similar but they cause so many issues.
  • with no internet or telly, how do they watch their porn?
  • old school - grot mags in the woods.
  • They are Luddites, so what?

    They've always paid their tax.
    HMRC change the rules to suit themselves - and try to make criminals out of people who don't dance to their new tune.

    At this rate the next thing could be the Government making cash illegal.

  • Oggy Red said:

    They are Luddites, so what?

    They've always paid their tax.
    HMRC change the rules to suit themselves - and try to make criminals out of people who don't dance to their new tune.

    At this rate the next thing could be the Government making cash illegal.

    Re payment of their taxes, when they submit their VAT returns, they receive a repayment from HMRC each quarter so they arent paying any VAT. If the system (that benefits them) offends them so much, why don't they cancel their VAT registration? it isn't compulsory in their case.

  • There are plenty of folk that don't have or use the Internet. Why should they have to?

    It's only a small step to having to buy commercial software to file your tax return. Hang on a minute.....

    Also wasn't there a case in which someone pitched up at the tax office with enough pennies to pay his bill, but was turned away because HMRC wouldn't accept a feckin great sack full of perfectly legal tender?
  • Agree that there should be an option for paying outside of the internet.

    But the religious argument is just dumb.
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