It is also worth pointing out that whatever his 'success' at Standard, that is not down to his "network' idea, because he has only just assembled it. The network idea is totally unproven in football. I fear that his inspiration is global companies, but if so, he may not actually be aware of the reality of how their human resources work. The vast majority of senior managers in a given country in Unilever are locally sourced from the employment market. Very few are global managers whizzed around the world, and the number of such types is reducing each year.
And the news since I was away for the last few hours leaves me in shock. If I was ready to give him the benefit of the doubt at lunchtime, I am far less so now. Unless something spectacular happens in the next 48 hours, I think we are in deep trouble.
Does he realise how difficult it will be to get back up if we get relegated? This ain't the Belgian League. It took us three seasons last time. It ain't easy. I hope he realises that turnstile income will drop right off if we have a similar struggle again.
This is my concern. I don't think there is anyone in authority at the club now who will understand this. They will think it will be like 2009/10. It will be much worse, IMO.
But surely they can't be that stupid - ok it looks like they might be, but can they? Can they really?
I heard from another source how impressed one potential purchaser was by our gates in League One last time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was part of the sales pitch and frankly how would RD or any of the management at The Valley know otherwise.
Sold benteke for 800k! Mangala and defour as well. Can see why their fans were fuming. Net transfer spend last three years tho is essentially neutral so that gives us an idea of what to expect.
Does he realise how difficult it will be to get back up if we get relegated? This ain't the Belgian League. It took us three seasons last time. It ain't easy. I hope he realises that turnstile income will drop right off if we have a similar struggle again.
This is my concern. I don't think there is anyone in authority at the club now who will understand this. They will think it will be like 2009/10. It will be much worse, IMO.
But surely they can't be that stupid - ok it looks like they might be, but can they? Can they really?
I heard from another source how impressed one potential purchaser was by our gates in League One last time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was part of the sales pitch.
I reckon our gates would be even more impressive in League 2 though!
I am a little bit stunned by all of this to be honest.
If Yann does leave then that will be a huge moment in our recent history - you can't sell your best players when you are in the relegation zone, its just not on and is a sign of a club in desperation.
The only way you CAN sell your best players in those circumstances would be if someone better was coming in.
For example, a 32 year-old Yann is replaced by a younger, fitter Chris Wood then no problem but if you replace Yann with an untried Iranian who has never played in England before then you are asking for trouble. Big time.
Sorry, but RD has to realize that this is a very serious situation and you can't solve it with foreign rookies - that is not how it works.
The only option is to dig as deep as possible and bring in three Championship class players to really shore things up - but that will cost money.
Let's be clear here, we did NOT get out of League One last time on the cheap, we got out with a (relatively) expensive team which was put together by buying some of the best players in the League such as Wiggins and Hollands from Bournemouth, Morrison from Leicester, Stephens from Bury, Green from D&R, Taylor from Exeter, Evina from Oldham and Hayes from Scunthorpe.
Without that very big investment we would NOT have gone up and RD needs to understand that if we go down then we are starting next year with (from memory) about half a dozen senior contracted players and it will take a mammoth investment to get us back again.
Surely its better to invest NOW to keep us up rather than have to pay more money to get us BACK up and then spend again to keep us up if/when we do get back.
It is also worth pointing out that whatever his 'success' at Standard, that is not down to his "network' idea, because he has only just assembled it. The network idea is totally unproven in football. I fear that his inspiration is global companies, but if so, he may not actually be aware of the reality of how their human resources work. The vast majority of senior managers in a given country in Unilever are locally sourced from the employment market. Very few are global managers whizzed around the world, and the number of such types is reducing each year.
I work for a Belgian global corporation - we have offices/production sites in every major country in the world, nearly all run by Belgians who are shipped around the globe - so many things about Charlton right now are mirroring my work life!!
Does he realise how difficult it will be to get back up if we get relegated? This ain't the Belgian League. It took us three seasons last time. It ain't easy. I hope he realises that turnstile income will drop right off if we have a similar struggle again.
This is my concern. I don't think there is anyone in authority at the club now who will understand this. They will think it will be like 2009/10. It will be much worse, IMO.
Has Richard Murray had his head up his arse for the last five years then?
I don't know anything about Belgian tax laws, but seeing as we're now owned, in effect, by a Belgian company, could he offset our losses (say £7m) against the profits of his main business to avoid paying corporation tax?
Someone seems to be getting close to the truth. Duchatelet is only interested in shifting money around for tax evasion. This is why he bought the Hungarian club and put it into his son's name.
That would be illegal. Is that what you are alleging, JimmyM? Or did you actually intend to say "entirely legitimate tax avoidance"? In any event, the tax angle makes no sense to me - perhaps you can explain?
Does he realise how difficult it will be to get back up if we get relegated? This ain't the Belgian League. It took us three seasons last time. It ain't easy. I hope he realises that turnstile income will drop right off if we have a similar struggle again.
This is my concern. I don't think there is anyone in authority at the club now who will understand this. They will think it will be like 2009/10. It will be much worse, IMO.
Has Richard Murray had his head up his arse for the last five years then?
I think the words "in authority" says it all there. RM is, and has been for a while simply a token gesture.
I don't mean disrespect in anyway to Richard but that's how it feels.
I asked on a different thread if a profit can be made in league 1 if the main aim of the club (owner) is to profit from developing and selling youth players. Is the revenue from league 1 much lower than the the Championship? There would also be some offset with regards to wage levels presumably. Of course the money to be made in the premier is vast compared to the lower leagues but he might not be willing or able to fund a promotion bid which can never be 100% sure anyway. I know FA about football finance but I guess like most on here I'm just struggling to make any sense whatsoever regarding the current situation.
It is also worth pointing out that whatever his 'success' at Standard, that is not down to his "network' idea, because he has only just assembled it. The network idea is totally unproven in football. I fear that his inspiration is global companies, but if so, he may not actually be aware of the reality of how their human resources work. The vast majority of senior managers in a given country in Unilever are locally sourced from the employment market. Very few are global managers whizzed around the world, and the number of such types is reducing each year.
I work for a Belgian global corporation - we have offices/production sites in every major country in the world, nearly all run by Belgians who are shipped around the globe - so many things about Charlton right now are mirroring my work life!!
Right , but allow me to explain my point a bit more clearly. The person who runs your place is Belgian - the equivalent of Katrien. But the people who do the work, whatever it is...they have not been brought in from Belgium too, have they? As I understand it, Duchatelet's business has been built up in Belgium although it has successfully exported. My guess is that he has looked at and admires really global companies like Unilever who have significant management teams in every major country. However, I think he misunderstands how they work. He may believe that they develop global talent and ship them around the world, and in this way, they are better than managers which could be hired on the local market, while also providing great careers for the managers who choose to stay rather than move to the other club. He may think he can do the same thing with his players in the club network. Unfortunately for him, round about 2002, Unilever decided that policy doesn't work as they hoped. Each country has maybe one or two Katriens, but otherwise the talent is hired on the local market.
I could of course be wrong in thinking that RD is following the 'global company' model. But I intend to find out.
And football is different to other businesses as it has the risk of relegation for clubs and all of the negative financial implications. You can't make risky changes without ignoring the implications of this.
And football is different to other businesses as it has the risk of relegation for clubs and all of the negative financial implications. You can't make risky changes without ignoring the implications of this.
It's not really very different though is it? Most businesses carry risk. In football you get relegated and lose significant income stream. In electronics, you make a mobile 'phone, say a Blackberry, that is one moment the 'phone of choice taking half the market and three years later is nowhere. And you lose very significant income stream. History is littered with once successful companies that didn't change/adapt and failed. Roland earned his money making electronic components for the motor industry. He will understand very well that this year's built-in multi-media sat nav system could be next year's cassette player. Or that last year's Robin Van Persie can be this year's Paul Benson. I'm not saying that he's getting it right but he will understand that he needs to do something and may take a risk doing so. He'll either be right or wrong. We'll all just have to wait and see.
Interesting speculation here. The bloke is rich and it is reasonable to assume he didn't get that way by being dumb. He does not support Charlton as far as we know. The question of why he would buy us is still a very good question because it is hard to see that we were worth what he allegedly paid. If you want some Championship pitch-time for Belgian bench-warmers, there would surely be cheaper routes.
All I can say is that so far I am not enjoying this ride.
Whilst it's obviously not great to see our best players leaving, i think people need to take a deep breath and a step back for a minute and just wait and see what happens before 11pm tomorrow. I still maintain he hasn't bought us to watch us get relegated and he's obviously a shrewd bloke.
A similar thing happened at Standard, he came in, sold a couple of players, changed the manager, fans weren't happy, they rioted........now look at them. Absolutely pissing the Belgian league and selling out their ground most weeks.
I've seen posts from people saying that's it they've had enough, not going any more, won't renew season tickets, we're as good as relegated etc etc. Let's just calm down a bit and see what happens in the next 48 hours.
A similar thing happened at Standard, he came in, sold a couple of players, changed the manager, fans weren't happy, they rioted........now look at them. Absolutely pissing the Belgian league and selling out their ground most weeks.
Can I just point out again that whatever Duchatelet did at Standard, it was not based on the 'network' scheme that he now uses on us. That scheme was not in place when he sacked the coach and sold all those players.
A similar thing happened at Standard, he came in, sold a couple of players, changed the manager, fans weren't happy, they rioted........now look at them. Absolutely pissing the Belgian league and selling out their ground most weeks.
Can I just point out again that whatever Duchatelet did at Standard, it was not based on the 'network' scheme that he now uses on us. That scheme was not in place when he sacked the coach and sold all those players.
It's only fair to point out that much of the money from player sales was reinvested into SL with fair success. Let's at least be balanced.
To me, RD is treating his collection of football clubs as a portfolio. Each has its own value, but can benefit from a broader managing view, which may reduce costs, increase opportunity and buying power in the market, a more efficient scouting network, and perhaps even ease the pressure of FFP. A natural symbiosis exists, and exploiting this might benefit all the clubs.
Yesterday there were signs of this in play, with some of the players we've been linked with and even look set to sign apparently jumping ahead of serious Premiership interest. Losing our best players to SL shouldn't worry us too much, and surely preferable to losing them to Bournemouth or Brighton, especially as the portfolio approach can kick in and shore you up quickly.
So I'm a little more at ease than I was. I do worry about the exit plan though, which could be a disaster for us if entwined this way with other clubs. Our identity is also at risk, which makes Chris Powell's retention and success pretty key for me.
If it works , though, it might be us superseding SL at the top of the tree, and that might prove very exciting indeed.
Still, perhaps, a wait and see. It's still all speculation.
I don't discount that it might work, and I agree that just because something hasn't been tried in business before, does not mean it won't work. There are of course success stories which prove that point.
However, what I worry about is that Duchatelet seems to have a rather dogmatic character, which does not really allow for, let alone seek, wise counsel. I think this network idea is one which he is applying based on his understanding of how other international companies work. However, in order to apply strategies from other companies, you have to be clear that there are not structural differences in the type of companies being compared which would get in the way of the successful application of that strategy.
In summary, we are the unwilling participants in an experiment, and it is a different experiment to the one he carried out on Standard. It might work, and then we can hail him as a hero. But you'll excuse me if I fret over the tangible risks and reasons why it won't work.
I'm excited by the news I just got, apparently RD has installed a wage system at Standard Liege where players has a truly basic salary but it is well complemented with a truly generous win bonus AND a reasonable draw bonus. This enables the recruitment of players with a "can-do" mentality hence the emphasis on youth and players who play for the team. I think that this scheme also fits in well within the constraints of the FFP as I'm assuming that it's based on the basic wages. If not the increase in wages should be justified by the increase in attendances when we start playing attractive football, huh? ;-)
I'm excited by the news I just got, apparently RD has installed a wage system at Standard Liege where players has a truly basic salary but it is well complemented with a truly generous win bonus AND a reasonable draw bonus. This enables the recruitment of players with a "can-do" mentality hence the emphasis on youth and players who play for the team. I think that this scheme also fits in well within the constraints of the FFP as I'm assuming that it's based on the basic wages. If not the increase in wages should be justified by the increase in attendances when we start playing attractive football, huh? ;-)
If your sources are correct, this is an approach that I like. Good news.
Gone are the days when Charlton would put out a team of 8-10 British players, where one of the few teams in the championship who could do that. Now we are Standard Liege`s reserve team.
I don't discount that it might work, and I agree that just because something hasn't been tried in business before, does not mean it won't work. There are of course success stories which prove that point.
However, what I worry about is that Duchatelet seems to have a rather dogmatic character, which does not really allow for, let alone seek, wise counsel. I think this network idea is one which he is applying based on his understanding of how other international companies work. However, in order to apply strategies from other companies, you have to be clear that there are not structural differences in the type of companies being compared which would get in the way of the successful application of that strategy.
In summary, we are the unwilling participants in an experiment, and it is a different experiment to the one he carried out on Standard. It might work, and then we can hail him as a hero. But you'll excuse me if I fret over the tangible risks and reasons why it won't work.
I do excuse you. ;-) However, it is necessarily a different experiment to what he did at Standard Liege because, well, he didn't have the same network then. The principles of getting a better squad by maximising the selling value of the players you have could be argued to be an improvement on what we've done in the last 20 years though, if not in our entire history. And exploiting a network is an innovative idea that I imagine we could benefit from.
However - and this is where Rick's questioning of team selection interference becomes particularly salient - it should be recognised that the key SME(s) for English football are at Charlton, not elsewhere in the network. RD should work together with Powell and his team to achieve the right balance between better players and the right characters for team morale - it seems the latter is particularly at risk right now.
Just intrigues me this whole situation. Seems to me that this scheme of buying multiple clubs around Europe works well for the parent club & weaker feeder clubs - so I can see the benefits for Standard Liege & say CZ Jena or Alcorcon - but the English Championship is a whole different ball game to the Hungarian League or a small team in the Spanish Second Division. I cannot understand really other than boosting the squad numbers - what the likes of Koc, Azradevic & even Thuram are bringing to us - other than tying up resources & adding more stress onto CP as he blaances a squad of his own & RD's players.
Is this plan to shift Standard fringe players it?
Has it been thought out much more than that?
Realistically we need serious money pumping in to the club to secure our place in the Championship next season & it's going to be a hell of a fight just to do that.
Does he have that kind of money? Sure he was able to turn things around at Liege, but he had the luxury of a half decent team in the first place upon which to build as opposed to the husk of Charlton Athletic he has inherited. How much money did he spend in turning Liege around.
Platitudes about youth development & improving match day experience is great - but what is the plan for the next 3 months.
Does he really have one - or has he been sold a dud bought on a whim to further this fantasy football network he has built up.
I posted this in January 2014 - two years later we still don't know
Comments
It is also worth pointing out that whatever his 'success' at Standard, that is not down to his "network' idea, because he has only just assembled it. The network idea is totally unproven in football. I fear that his inspiration is global companies, but if so, he may not actually be aware of the reality of how their human resources work. The vast majority of senior managers in a given country in Unilever are locally sourced from the employment market. Very few are global managers whizzed around the world, and the number of such types is reducing each year.
And the news since I was away for the last few hours leaves me in shock. If I was ready to give him the benefit of the doubt at lunchtime, I am far less so now. Unless something spectacular happens in the next 48 hours, I think we are in deep trouble.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/standard-lige/transfers/verein_3057_2011_default_default_alle_a_default.html
Sold benteke for 800k! Mangala and defour as well. Can see why their fans were fuming. Net transfer spend last three years tho is essentially neutral so that gives us an idea of what to expect.
If Yann does leave then that will be a huge moment in our recent history - you can't sell your best players when you are in the relegation zone, its just not on and is a sign of a club in desperation.
The only way you CAN sell your best players in those circumstances would be if someone better was coming in.
For example, a 32 year-old Yann is replaced by a younger, fitter Chris Wood then no problem but if you replace Yann with an untried Iranian who has never played in England before then you are asking for trouble. Big time.
Sorry, but RD has to realize that this is a very serious situation and you can't solve it with foreign rookies - that is not how it works.
The only option is to dig as deep as possible and bring in three Championship class players to really shore things up - but that will cost money.
Let's be clear here, we did NOT get out of League One last time on the cheap, we got out with a (relatively) expensive team which was put together by buying some of the best players in the League such as Wiggins and Hollands from Bournemouth, Morrison from Leicester, Stephens from Bury, Green from D&R, Taylor from Exeter, Evina from Oldham and Hayes from Scunthorpe.
Without that very big investment we would NOT have gone up and RD needs to understand that if we go down then we are starting next year with (from memory) about half a dozen senior contracted players and it will take a mammoth investment to get us back again.
Surely its better to invest NOW to keep us up rather than have to pay more money to get us BACK up and then spend again to keep us up if/when we do get back.
I don't mean disrespect in anyway to Richard but that's how it feels.
Of course the money to be made in the premier is vast compared to the lower leagues but he might not be willing or able to fund a promotion bid which can never be 100% sure anyway. I know FA about football finance but I guess like most on here I'm just struggling to make any sense whatsoever regarding the current situation.
I could of course be wrong in thinking that RD is following the 'global company' model. But I intend to find out.
Most businesses carry risk. In football you get relegated and lose significant income stream. In electronics, you make a mobile 'phone, say a Blackberry, that is one moment the 'phone of choice taking half the market and three years later is nowhere. And you lose very significant income stream. History is littered with once successful companies that didn't change/adapt and failed. Roland earned his money making electronic components for the motor industry. He will understand very well that this year's built-in multi-media sat nav system could be next year's cassette player. Or that last year's Robin Van Persie can be this year's Paul Benson.
I'm not saying that he's getting it right but he will understand that he needs to do something and may take a risk doing so. He'll either be right or wrong. We'll all just have to wait and see.
All I can say is that so far I am not enjoying this ride.
UKIP and coming out of Europe ?
A similar thing happened at Standard, he came in, sold a couple of players, changed the manager, fans weren't happy, they rioted........now look at them. Absolutely pissing the Belgian league and selling out their ground most weeks.
I've seen posts from people saying that's it they've had enough, not going any more, won't renew season tickets, we're as good as relegated etc etc. Let's just calm down a bit and see what happens in the next 48 hours.
It's only fair to point out that much of the money from player sales was reinvested into SL with fair success. Let's at least be balanced.
To me, RD is treating his collection of football clubs as a portfolio. Each has its own value, but can benefit from a broader managing view, which may reduce costs, increase opportunity and buying power in the market, a more efficient scouting network, and perhaps even ease the pressure of FFP. A natural symbiosis exists, and exploiting this might benefit all the clubs.
Yesterday there were signs of this in play, with some of the players we've been linked with and even look set to sign apparently jumping ahead of serious Premiership interest. Losing our best players to SL shouldn't worry us too much, and surely preferable to losing them to Bournemouth or Brighton, especially as the portfolio approach can kick in and shore you up quickly.
So I'm a little more at ease than I was. I do worry about the exit plan though, which could be a disaster for us if entwined this way with other clubs. Our identity is also at risk, which makes Chris Powell's retention and success pretty key for me.
If it works , though, it might be us superseding SL at the top of the tree, and that might prove very exciting indeed.
Still, perhaps, a wait and see. It's still all speculation.
I don't discount that it might work, and I agree that just because something hasn't been tried in business before, does not mean it won't work. There are of course success stories which prove that point.
However, what I worry about is that Duchatelet seems to have a rather dogmatic character, which does not really allow for, let alone seek, wise counsel. I think this network idea is one which he is applying based on his understanding of how other international companies work. However, in order to apply strategies from other companies, you have to be clear that there are not structural differences in the type of companies being compared which would get in the way of the successful application of that strategy.
In summary, we are the unwilling participants in an experiment, and it is a different experiment to the one he carried out on Standard. It might work, and then we can hail him as a hero. But you'll excuse me if I fret over the tangible risks and reasons why it won't work.
However - and this is where Rick's questioning of team selection interference becomes particularly salient - it should be recognised that the key SME(s) for English football are at Charlton, not elsewhere in the network. RD should work together with Powell and his team to achieve the right balance between better players and the right characters for team morale - it seems the latter is particularly at risk right now.