I think you'd be surprised at the standard of club cricket in Kent, and Essex, Surrey and Middlesex. We have the infrastructure believe me, I've been involved in club cricket for over 30 years. The improvement over the last 10 years is mind blowing. The MCC for example have changed their attitude completely and their investment into grass roots is huge. We maybe decades late in setting ourselves up but everything is in place. However we will never reap the rewards whilst the emphasis remains on rigid technical coaching which just produce robots. Have a listen to the sort of things Greg Chappell has been saying recently. The appointment of Lehman is a backlash to the age of laptop coaching and that is the road we need to go down. We need to encourage talent and let it develop.
I think you'd be surprised at the standard of club cricket in Kent, and Essex, Surrey and Middlesex. We have the infrastructure believe me, I've been involved in club cricket for over 30 years. The improvement over the last 10 years is mind blowing. The MCC for example have changed their attitude completely and their investment into grass roots is huge. We maybe decades late in setting ourselves up but everything is in place. However we will never reap the rewards whilst the emphasis remains on rigid technical coaching which just produce robots. Have a listen to the sort of things Greg Chappell has been saying recently. The appointment of Lehman is a backlash to the age of laptop coaching and that is the road we need to go down. We need to encourage talent and let it develop.
No i wouldnt be surprised by club cricket in the south - as i've played it (fairly) recently. However, i've also attempted to play Sydney Grade cricket - but couldnt get anywhere near it due to the volumes of cricket talent (some times literally) fighting to get through. It still doesnt alter the fact that most secondary/comprehensive schools simply dont play the sport - and what percentage of kids go to secondary/comprehensive schools ? I agree with the comment about letting talent develop - but what i am saying is that we have a pool of young players that is much,much,much smaller than Oz and SA at the crucial age - and this also means that the likes of KP,Trott,Jordan,Morgan,Lamb,Smith brothers,Kieswetter,D'Oliveira and many others will always break into the England side because of a general lack of homegrown talent. To say the Infrastructure here is vastly superior to Oz and SA is simply well, .... wrong...full stop.
As Riviera says things are changing but not fast enough. As The President intimates the infrastructure currently in place is fine if you go to the right school or can afford to pay for the best coaching available.
The cost for Kent coaching alone in the last few months for my son has amounted to £250 to date (and this is more or less mandatory if you wish your son to be considered). Kent kit (if he gets through to the final 14) will not be much short of £200. Travelling around the country won't be cheap not least with the Taunton Festival when we will not only have to fund our son's stay but also our own for the week - probably between £750 and £1,000 in total.
In addition, we have probably spent in the last year over £1,500 on various coaching sessions being group or 1-2-1s and kit required to play for his Club and District.
Even if you are lucky enough to play cricket at school, unless you have sufficient disposable income, you are more or less ruled out of getting onto the ladder.
Compare that to football where (ironically, apart from some of the Grammar/Private schools where cricket is part of the curriculum) the sport is not only played as a matter of course but is also funded by the Pro Clubs. If you play for one of their academies I would imagine that the coaching and kit is free.
The County system is also not geared to nurture and take a chance with a kid who is raw i.e. a lad who can hit a ball out of the park when the ball is in the right area but struggles (and there is an obvious coaching need) in playing the ball when it isn't. Or one who turns it square but bowls too many loose deliveries for their liking.
I think you'd be surprised at the standard of club cricket in Kent, and Essex, Surrey and Middlesex. We have the infrastructure believe me, I've been involved in club cricket for over 30 years. The improvement over the last 10 years is mind blowing. The MCC for example have changed their attitude completely and their investment into grass roots is huge. We maybe decades late in setting ourselves up but everything is in place. However we will never reap the rewards whilst the emphasis remains on rigid technical coaching which just produce robots. Have a listen to the sort of things Greg Chappell has been saying recently. The appointment of Lehman is a backlash to the age of laptop coaching and that is the road we need to go down. We need to encourage talent and let it develop.
No i wouldnt be surprised by club cricket in the south - as i've played it (fairly) recently. However, i've also attempted to play Sydney Grade cricket - but couldnt get anywhere near it due to the volumes of cricket talent (some times literally) fighting to get through. It still doesnt alter the fact that most secondary/comprehensive schools simply dont play the sport - and what percentage of kids go to secondary/comprehensive schools ? I agree with the comment about letting talent develop - but what i am saying is that we have a pool of young players that is much,much,much smaller than Oz and SA at the crucial age - and this also means that the likes of KP,Trott,Jordan,Morgan,Lamb,Smith brothers,Kieswetter,D'Oliveira and many others will always break into the England side because of a general lack of homegrown talent. To say the Infrastructure here is vastly superior to Oz and SA is simply well, .... wrong...full stop.
Look I understand where you are coming from but I think we have different definitions of the word infrastructure. We have everything in place here. The pyramid club systems with county Premier club leagues and an excellent junior club network. Junior club cricket is huge and although it's a shame many schools don't play cricket, clubs are there and accessible. I am as frustrated as anyone in the lack of home grown talent but as I said originally, we don't have the right people nurturing it. It is a similar picture with football.
I haven't played club cricket in the UK for a long time, but would be amazed if it was anywhere near the standard of grade cricket in Australia.
If there are no 1st class game on, then it is very common for the test players to go and play for their club sides - not their states, their actual 1st grade club side.
Mate of mine plays for Petersham in Sydney, and he has regularly played with and against test players like Hauritz, Phil Jacques, Josh Hazlewood and Brad Haddin - consequently the standards and skill levels lift for everybody.
I don't know for certain, but I'd be surprised if any of the England players did anything similar.
England players don't even play for their counties ,let alone clubs. I'm afraid the current generation of England players are far too arrogant for such although their central contracts probably don't allow it. However in the Kent Premier League most sides have an overseas pro and many players who have played or are currently playing 1st class cricket. At my club, Blackheath we have over the last two seasons had the services of Mohammed Ashruful and Kirk Edwards who is currentlyplaying against England for the West Indies. We also had two current Kent players in Bell-Drummond and Callum Haggart, who incidentally is currently playing Grade cricket in Perth. I'll say it just once more, we have the infrastructure, we just do not produce the talent.
I'm really enjoying this discussion. I only played cricket at school a couple times... surely if there was more cricket played at school, more kids would get interested? You then need a link between the schools and the clubs to get the best kids into the clubs? Do the club need to be more proactive in getting people along? I really don't know much about cricket. My only experience with opranised sport was archery, and the problem was the whole infrastructure was largely voluntary, cliquey and political, so despite there beng lots of people taking aprt, the talent at the key ages simply wasn't identified and trained and supported appropriately. I realise we are talking on a smaller scale, but is there a similar problem? there's certainly a lot more money in cricket, and you can make a living from it.
The slowest test match 50 was scored by T.E.Bailey of England against Australia at Brisbane in 1958-59 series, in which it took him 357 minutes (350 balls) to score half century. ABdV has this record in his sights! Currently 303 minutes for 39 runs (214 balls)....
a terrific climax to the mini series .. I hope that our team(s) exhibit the same grit and determination as these two super professional and committed sides always seem to
England players don't even play for their counties ,let alone clubs. I'm afraid the current generation of England players are far too arrogant for such although their central contracts probably don't allow it. However in the Kent Premier League most sides have an overseas pro and many players who have played or are currently playing 1st class cricket. At my club, Blackheath we have over the last two seasons had the services of Mohammed Ashruful and Kirk Edwards who is currently playing against England for the West Indies. We also had two current Kent players in Bell-Drummond and Callum Haggart, who incidentally is currently playing Grade cricket in Perth. I'll say it just once more, we have the infrastructure, we just do not produce the talent.
Not sure if we do have the right infrastructure the depth of talent in the Australian Grade system is far greater and i dont think its fair to include say ex pros/also rans in the argument in our leagues ,id say Grade cricket contains more talent and is more competitive and not made up of cricketers on the way down /making up the numbers ..(infact Australian cricket never has been on a downer it just went through a period of ridiculous selections and a poor head coach.)
Climate plays a part and but schools and privilege play a big part .The best coaching at Junior level in this country comes within the public school set up (not clubs) and that is a privilege not available to many .You quote Bell- Drummond (whose cricketing influences are parental) ..i dont know about Callum but we have to get youngsters enthused at state school level first before Club level .There arent enough properly qualified level 3 Club Coaches to go round and there seems no enthusiasm from state schools to embrace the sport properly.Ergo if you are an england cricketer you are likely to be public or grammar school educated,your father/family member was a club cricketer or cherry picked as a ready made saffa or aussie .
surely the main reason why 'ordinary schools' don't play much cricket/produce many players is that the schools are on holiday for much of the cricket season and of course, many playing fields are now under bricks and concrete
England players don't even play for their counties ,let alone clubs. I'm afraid the current generation of England players are far too arrogant for such although their central contracts probably don't allow it. However in the Kent Premier League most sides have an overseas pro and many players who have played or are currently playing 1st class cricket. At my club, Blackheath we have over the last two seasons had the services of Mohammed Ashruful and Kirk Edwards who is currently playing against England for the West Indies. We also had two current Kent players in Bell-Drummond and Callum Haggart, who incidentally is currently playing Grade cricket in Perth. I'll say it just once more, we have the infrastructure, we just do not produce the talent.
Not sure if we do have the right infrastructure the depth of talent in the Australian Grade system is far greater and i dont think its fair to include say ex pros/also rans in the argument in our leagues ,id say Grade cricket contains more talent and is more competitive and not made up of cricketers on the way down /making up the numbers ..(infact Australian cricket never has been on a downer it just went through a period of ridiculous selections and a poor head coach.)
Climate plays a part and but schools and privilege play a big part .The best coaching at Junior level in this country comes within the public school set up (not clubs) and that is a privilege not available to many .You quote Bell- Drummond (whose cricketing influences are parental) ..i dont know about Callum but we have to get youngsters enthused at state school level first before Club level .There arent enough properly qualified level 3 Club Coaches to go round and there seems no enthusiasm from state schools to embrace the sport properly.Ergo if you are an england cricketer you are likely to be public or grammar school educated,your father/family member was a club cricketer or cherry picked as a ready made saffa or aussie .
Thank you Lolwray. Riv understands the 'infrastructure' to be within the clubs themselves, however my point is that its worth bugger all if 80 per cent of your kids are lost due to not playing because of the non-existence of cricket 'infrastructure' at the key years of 8-14. To glibly say that the infrastrcuture in England is better than SA and OZ combined is laughable (well, it made me laugh anyway) - and i can imagine what a Saffer and Aus would say to that too ! I know when my boys were at school in Cape Town, their junior school had 4 teams per year !! - for a school that had probably no more than 60 boys per year.And the games were ferocious - even at age 9.But the point is they had the 'infrastructure' at that stage to cope with that and for it to be highly organised. No good at age 20 - they're already lost to the game by then.
The current set up encouraged by the ECB is for the clubs to target schools rather than the other way round and of course Clubs are run by volunteers (thats never really going to work properly)...but say if you did get another 30 kids per club ,where are they gonna play? ..there arent enough pitches to go round as it is ?. So theres another dent in our existing infrastructure .Our big infrastructural weaknesses are lack of facilities,unclear path into cricket especially in inner cities and dearth of level 3 coaches they really are fundamentally much more important than a Kent League organagram
Surely the sheer number of teams in club cricket over here means the talent is more diluted whereas say in grade cricket each team will have more of the better players so the standard appears better?
Comments
We have the infrastructure believe me, I've been involved in club cricket for over 30 years. The improvement over the last 10 years is mind blowing. The MCC for example have changed their attitude completely and their investment into grass roots is huge. We maybe decades late in setting ourselves up but everything is in place. However we will never reap the rewards whilst the emphasis remains on rigid technical coaching which just produce robots.
Have a listen to the sort of things Greg Chappell has been saying recently. The appointment of Lehman is a backlash to the age of laptop coaching and that is the road we need to go down.
We need to encourage talent and let it develop.
It still doesnt alter the fact that most secondary/comprehensive schools simply dont play the sport - and what percentage of kids go to secondary/comprehensive schools ?
I agree with the comment about letting talent develop - but what i am saying is that we have a pool of young players that is much,much,much smaller than Oz and SA at the crucial age - and this also means that the likes of KP,Trott,Jordan,Morgan,Lamb,Smith brothers,Kieswetter,D'Oliveira and many others will always break into the England side because of a general lack of homegrown talent.
To say the Infrastructure here is vastly superior to Oz and SA is simply well, .... wrong...full stop.
The cost for Kent coaching alone in the last few months for my son has amounted to £250 to date (and this is more or less mandatory if you wish your son to be considered). Kent kit (if he gets through to the final 14) will not be much short of £200. Travelling around the country won't be cheap not least with the Taunton Festival when we will not only have to fund our son's stay but also our own for the week - probably between £750 and £1,000 in total.
In addition, we have probably spent in the last year over £1,500 on various coaching sessions being group or 1-2-1s and kit required to play for his Club and District.
Even if you are lucky enough to play cricket at school, unless you have sufficient disposable income, you are more or less ruled out of getting onto the ladder.
Compare that to football where (ironically, apart from some of the Grammar/Private schools where cricket is part of the curriculum) the sport is not only played as a matter of course but is also funded by the Pro Clubs. If you play for one of their academies I would imagine that the coaching and kit is free.
The County system is also not geared to nurture and take a chance with a kid who is raw i.e. a lad who can hit a ball out of the park when the ball is in the right area but struggles (and there is an obvious coaching need) in playing the ball when it isn't. Or one who turns it square but bowls too many loose deliveries for their liking.
I am as frustrated as anyone in the lack of home grown talent but as I said originally, we don't have the right people nurturing it. It is a similar picture with football.
If there are no 1st class game on, then it is very common for the test players to go and play for their club sides - not their states, their actual 1st grade club side.
Mate of mine plays for Petersham in Sydney, and he has regularly played with and against test players like Hauritz, Phil Jacques, Josh Hazlewood and Brad Haddin - consequently the standards and skill levels lift for everybody.
I don't know for certain, but I'd be surprised if any of the England players did anything similar.
However in the Kent Premier League most sides have an overseas pro and many players who have played or are currently playing 1st class cricket. At my club, Blackheath we have over the last two seasons had the services of Mohammed Ashruful and Kirk Edwards who is currentlyplaying against England for the West Indies. We also had two current Kent players in Bell-Drummond and Callum Haggart, who incidentally is currently playing Grade cricket in Perth.
I'll say it just once more, we have the infrastructure, we just do not produce the talent.
Climate plays a part and but schools and privilege play a big part .The best coaching at Junior level in this country comes within the public school set up (not clubs) and that is a privilege not available to many .You quote Bell- Drummond (whose cricketing influences are parental) ..i dont know about Callum but we have to get youngsters enthused at state school level first before Club level .There arent enough properly qualified level 3 Club Coaches to go round and there seems no enthusiasm from state schools to embrace the sport properly.Ergo if you are an england cricketer you are likely to be public or grammar school educated,your father/family member was a club cricketer or cherry picked as a ready made saffa or aussie .
Riv understands the 'infrastructure' to be within the clubs themselves, however my point is that its worth bugger all if 80 per cent of your kids are lost due to not playing because of the non-existence of cricket 'infrastructure' at the key years of 8-14. To glibly say that the infrastrcuture in England is better than SA and OZ combined is laughable (well, it made me laugh anyway) - and i can imagine what a Saffer and Aus would say to that too !
I know when my boys were at school in Cape Town, their junior school had 4 teams per year !! - for a school that had probably no more than 60 boys per year.And the games were ferocious - even at age 9.But the point is they had the 'infrastructure' at that stage to cope with that and for it to be highly organised. No good at age 20 - they're already lost to the game by then.