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Driving for a 18/19 yo

My sons passed his test yday and as Im sure your aware insurance is ridiculous.

Say for example my mum ( who hasn't driven for 20 years and has a licence but has no intention of wanting to drive again) was to by a 'little runner' and get him insured as a named driver that would sort the cost right out wouldn't it??

Would my mum need to retake a test (shes 67) as she hasn't been driving for so long, would they even know if she hasn't been driving??

Cheers
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Comments

  • I would not advise this.

    If he is going to be the main driver, this is called fronting as is illegal. This would be classed as fraud by Insurers
  • That fine body of people called motor insurers (who have never pulled a dirty trick in their history) would not approve of this, but the burden of proof would be with the accuser - not the driver(s).
  • I would not advise this.

    If he is going to be the main driver, this is called fronting as is illegal. This would be classed as fraud by Insurers

    Cheers mate I do appreciate this and have considered it but there would be no way they could find out at all but the amount of shit drivers with NO insurance outweighed any concerns I have on the matter.

    His work is through the night in and around the docklands and city, no being able to drive has stopped him from working due to not being able to get home after 1/2/3am.

    Bit of a catch 22 really, its so he can start working enough shifts to finally be able to pay his own insurance for his own car, he needs a cheaper way for insurance just to be able work as hed be in negative equity and unable to run a car/insurance the way hes going.

    As a family weve never had any claim on anything and always done things by the book and hasn't really got us anywhere fast to be honest.

  • I'm not being flippant but assuming he's a reasonably fit young bloke, why not cycle. Docklands is easy through the foot tunnel.
  • Putting him as the main driver and two more experienced drivers as named drivers on the policy brings the premium down, and is not illegal.
  • I'm not being flippant but assuming he's a reasonably fit young bloke, why not cycle. Docklands is easy through the foot tunnel.

    Its hard graft (cabling) and winter coming up with wind, rain, snow etc not ideal to cycle in that. Also, it varys, Westminster one minute, Canary Wharf the next, then back out to Acton. Some nights 1am finish, others out til 5am, just never know from one day to the next.
    Ross said:

    Putting him as the main driver and two more experienced drivers as named drivers on the policy brings the premium down, and is not illegal.

    Cheers, will look into.
  • I would be very wary of taking out a policy as suggested. Having worked (now retired thank goodness) for many years in insurance underwriting and claims I know that any claims involving young drivers on parents/grandparents policies are closely scrutinised. Especially if he was to have a collision early in the morning.
    He has got to effect his own policy at some time, and start earning his own NCB so it is probably better to bite the bullet now
  • Just been through it with my middle lad, he's 18 and just passed his test.
    Myself and my partner are both insured with Direct Line. DL offer a multi car discount for cars that they insure at the same household. I bought a Corsa 1 litre for my middle lad, I called DL and explained that the car is in my name I will be the main driver and middle lad will be the named driver. Now they're not daft, so they load the premium accordingly, it was £2300 per year, they applied the multi car discount to the Corsa and got it down to £1500. Also I paid £26 for legal cover (just in case), 18/19 year olds think they can drive but the premiums are so high for a reason, they simply don't have the experience.
    FYI, we considered the black box route, however they only fit black boxes to cars from 2003 onwards and the Corsa is 2002.
    I'm still waiting for him to drive me to the Valley though!!
  • Greenie said:

    Just been through it with my middle lad, he's 18 and just passed his test.
    Myself and my partner are both insured with Direct Line. DL offer a multi car discount for cars that they insure at the same household. I bought a Corsa 1 litre for my middle lad, I called DL and explained that the car is in my name I will be the main driver and middle lad will be the named driver. Now they're not daft, so they load the premium accordingly, it was £2300 per year, they applied the multi car discount to the Corsa and got it down to £1500. Also I paid £26 for legal cover (just in case), 18/19 year olds think they can drive but the premiums are so high for a reason, they simply don't have the experience.
    FYI, we considered the black box route, however they only fit black boxes to cars from 2003 onwards and the Corsa is 2002.
    I'm still waiting for him to drive me to the Valley though!!

    To the best of my knowledge, what you have done is also illegal. Article on the subject of fronting here: moneysupermarket.com/c/news/why-fronting-for-your-child-could-cost-you-dear/0036917/

    Pretty much describes exactly what you have done for your lad.

  • Just got a quote from Churchil for £1600 as a newly passed driver of 1.3l Ford Ka, no attachment to mine or anything.........

    Not as bad as expected
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  • Rizzo said:

    Greenie said:

    Just been through it with my middle lad, he's 18 and just passed his test.
    Myself and my partner are both insured with Direct Line. DL offer a multi car discount for cars that they insure at the same household. I bought a Corsa 1 litre for my middle lad, I called DL and explained that the car is in my name I will be the main driver and middle lad will be the named driver. Now they're not daft, so they load the premium accordingly, it was £2300 per year, they applied the multi car discount to the Corsa and got it down to £1500. Also I paid £26 for legal cover (just in case), 18/19 year olds think they can drive but the premiums are so high for a reason, they simply don't have the experience.
    FYI, we considered the black box route, however they only fit black boxes to cars from 2003 onwards and the Corsa is 2002.
    I'm still waiting for him to drive me to the Valley though!!

    To the best of my knowledge, what you have done is also illegal. Article on the subject of fronting here: moneysupermarket.com/c/news/why-fronting-for-your-child-could-cost-you-dear/0036917/

    Pretty much describes exactly what you have done for your lad.

    But I am the main driver...........

    ......also how will they prove otherwise, even if he wasn't.....and I told them he will be using it quite a bit too, his mum lives in Milton Keynes, so he will be visiting her from time to time, thats why they loaded the premium. The phone call was recorded, nothing to hide here mate.


    As an aside, if you buy an older car (25 years +) they can then get classic insurance. My mate did this for his son, they bought and old Mini 850 and paid about £450 for his insurance. However its ironic that his son (who is in the demographic of most likely to have an accident) is driving a car that is 25 years behind current car safety.
  • Greenie said:

    But I am the main driver...........

    ......also how will they prove otherwise, even if he wasn't.....and I told them he will be using it quite a bit too, his mum lives in Milton Keynes, so he will be visiting her from time to time, thats why they loaded the premium. The phone call was recorded, nothing to hide here mate.

    Are you genuinely the main driver? Do you have another car that you use? Does your son use the car to go to work/uni etc? These are the sorts of questions that an insurer will ask in the event that your son has a claim. And they won't just rely on your answers. They may investigate, carry out surveillance etc.

    If you genuinely are the main driver and your son uses the car on an occasional basis then fair enough. The impression I got from the fact that you and your partner are both already insured with DL is that you have another car that you use. Insurers will probably take the same view and treat any claim with extreme suspicion.

  • edited September 2014
    .
  • Rizzo said:

    Greenie said:

    But I am the main driver...........

    ......also how will they prove otherwise, even if he wasn't.....and I told them he will be using it quite a bit too, his mum lives in Milton Keynes, so he will be visiting her from time to time, thats why they loaded the premium. The phone call was recorded, nothing to hide here mate.

    Are you genuinely the main driver? Do you have another car that you use? Does your son use the car to go to work/uni etc? These are the sorts of questions that an insurer will ask in the event that your son has a claim. And they won't just rely on your answers. They may investigate, carry out surveillance etc.

    If you genuinely are the main driver and your son uses the car on an occasional basis then fair enough. The impression I got from the fact that you and your partner are both already insured with DL is that you have another car that you use. Insurers will probably take the same view and treat any claim with extreme suspicion.

    They know all the above.
    I wish I hadn't said anything now.
  • Greenie said:

    Rizzo said:

    Greenie said:

    But I am the main driver...........

    ......also how will they prove otherwise, even if he wasn't.....and I told them he will be using it quite a bit too, his mum lives in Milton Keynes, so he will be visiting her from time to time, thats why they loaded the premium. The phone call was recorded, nothing to hide here mate.

    Are you genuinely the main driver? Do you have another car that you use? Does your son use the car to go to work/uni etc? These are the sorts of questions that an insurer will ask in the event that your son has a claim. And they won't just rely on your answers. They may investigate, carry out surveillance etc.

    If you genuinely are the main driver and your son uses the car on an occasional basis then fair enough. The impression I got from the fact that you and your partner are both already insured with DL is that you have another car that you use. Insurers will probably take the same view and treat any claim with extreme suspicion.

    They know all the above.
    I wish I hadn't said anything now.
    Judging by Greenie Juniors (now deleted) post, I suspect he does too!

  • Insurance companies are under no obligation to investigate the details on an application form, but you can bet that they will investigate absolutely everything in the event of a claim. If all you want is to make your child road legal then, by all means, get them in a car that the insurance company believes they use occasionally - irrespective as to how likely it is, in reality.

    The issue is in the event of a significant claim they will be able to, very quickly, establish if the policy was correctly applied for and then the cost of the claim can be significant. If a young driver should hit a car from behind (even if it's just a 'gentle' collision) you can bet that the driver will go down the whiplash route and, heaven forbid, that there is a passenger or two and the cost for the claim could easily rise to the other side of £20k. If the insurance company prove (which might be easy, and very cost effective in this scenario) that the policy was taken out on, even ever so slightly, different terms to what was required that £20k plus bill will be passed onto the uninsured driver, along with some points for the driving licence.

    It's interesting that we have so much hatred for the celebrities and bankers that use tax loopholes to save money yet many find it completely acceptable to 'mislead' an insurance company to save money on the premiums - even if it risks criminal prosecution.

    This reminds me of those that take their children out of school because the holidays outside of term time are so much more expensive. If you can't afford to insure a car, legally, then guess what? Don't have one!

    The 'I can't afford to do it properly, and legally' argument is ridiculous.

    Greenie, this is not aimed at you, specifically, as I have no idea if what you have done is correct or not. But when someone asks the question 'how can I get around this rule/law' they should, really, be asking if they should be even trying in the first place, and the answer is no, they should not!
  • Rizzo said:

    Greenie said:

    But I am the main driver...........

    ......also how will they prove otherwise, even if he wasn't.....and I told them he will be using it quite a bit too, his mum lives in Milton Keynes, so he will be visiting her from time to time, thats why they loaded the premium. The phone call was recorded, nothing to hide here mate.

    Are you genuinely the main driver? Do you have another car that you use? Does your son use the car to go to work/uni etc? These are the sorts of questions that an insurer will ask in the event that your son has a claim. And they won't just rely on your answers. They may investigate, carry out surveillance etc.

    If you genuinely are the main driver and your son uses the car on an occasional basis then fair enough. The impression I got from the fact that you and your partner are both already insured with DL is that you have another car that you use. Insurers will probably take the same view and treat any claim with extreme suspicion.

    Surely these questions would (should) be asked before accepting the premium?

    If so then to attempt moving the goalposts in the event of a claim is little more than attempted theft surely?
  • edited September 2014
    LenGlover said:

    Rizzo said:

    Greenie said:

    But I am the main driver...........

    ......also how will they prove otherwise, even if he wasn't.....and I told them he will be using it quite a bit too, his mum lives in Milton Keynes, so he will be visiting her from time to time, thats why they loaded the premium. The phone call was recorded, nothing to hide here mate.

    Are you genuinely the main driver? Do you have another car that you use? Does your son use the car to go to work/uni etc? These are the sorts of questions that an insurer will ask in the event that your son has a claim. And they won't just rely on your answers. They may investigate, carry out surveillance etc.

    If you genuinely are the main driver and your son uses the car on an occasional basis then fair enough. The impression I got from the fact that you and your partner are both already insured with DL is that you have another car that you use. Insurers will probably take the same view and treat any claim with extreme suspicion.

    Surely these questions would (should) be asked before accepting the premium?

    If so then to attempt moving the goalposts in the event of a claim is little more than attempted theft surely?
    They do ask relevant questions. But if you are asked "Who is the main driver of the vehicle" and you answer "Me" when the actual answer is "Someone else" then you have lied and insurers are quite entitled to void your policy leaving you uninsured and with a potential bill and criminal charges.

    (Not aimed at Greenie by the way)

  • It really is worth doing your homework on insurance. As an 18 year old who had just bought his own car, I couldn't find anything having searched around everywhere until Aviva randomly offered me a quote at £2600 (me as main driver on a 1.6).

    I'm 22 now and my renewal is £400
  • When i first passed my test, i was a named driver under my nan's name.

    In fact, i don't think i have ever been anything other than a named driver under someone elses insurance.
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  • edited September 2014
    @AFKABartram‌ And even with the pedal extensions fitted they believed that???!?!?!
  • Amen KHA. You may be the best driver in the world, but when that third party hits you and you find out that they haven't got insurance you're buggered.
  • Fronting is illegal but setting that aside it can have huge personal knock-on effects for the individuals involved: telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/motorinsurance/8961178/My-car-insurance-went-from-700-to-7000.html
    That's even if you could ever find an insurance company to insure the fronter again, ever, at any price. Let alone the frontee.
    Note that Insurance companies can and do take action, like refusing to insure (then you have to answer that question if applying elsewhere) and the data are shared amongst insurers.
    If an insurance co declines altogether or offers a stupid renewal price the onus turns to you to prove that fronting was not happening - not the other way round. And proving a negative can be very difficult if not impossible.

    In case you think insurers are idiots - they are not - it is their customers who are idiots.

    An insurance expert on the pistonheads forum, claims that the general public - that's us - lose about 22p in the £ to stuff such as fronting. They take it very seriously. I borrowed this from him:

    'Someone crashes their "fronted" car on the way to work. They then ring the claims line and give the details of the accident, a potential fraud trigger is triggered and a subsequent call asks

    Insr "Where were you going?",

    Insd "To work"

    Insr "Is that a usual trip for you, or were the roads unfamiliar?"

    Insd "No, I do it every day"

    Insr "In this car?"

    Insd "Yes"'

    Claim denied. (And what do you think might happen if the crash was at 2am in the morning and they'd know damn well that the insured would be tucked up in bed!) In fact I think I read somewhere of some kid who crashed his family car on the way to the airport to pick up his parents from holiday. He actually, really, didn't drive the car much at all but the insurers weren't interested nonetheless.

    In case anyone is wondering (I know you are not!) a number of insurers use voice stress analysis software on recorded telephone calls which gives them a very good idea as to whether anyone is lying to them.
  • cafcfan said:

    In fact I think I read somewhere of some kid who crashed his family car on the way to the airport to pick up his parents from holiday. He actually, really, didn't drive the car much at all but the insurers weren't interested nonetheless.

    That doesn't sound likely. The kid is still insured to drive the car and picking parents up from airport is not something you would do on a regular basis so there would not be any real cause to claim that the kid was not just a named driver. Either this didn't happen or there were some other factors that have not been reported.

  • I thought we'd all done it to be honest, I was under my parents insurance as a named driver on my first car for years. Wrote it off and all was well with the insurance company still.

    Wasn't aware of the fronting thing though.
  • Fronting is what I usually have to ring the insurance company to tell them I've just fookin' broken off again on a speed bump....
  • I worked for Direct Line Group for six years until last summer. All young drivers are being priced out of insurance as most claims involve young drivers. If you are fronting, then you are 99% certain to be found out in the case of a claim and then you're stuffed (as many have said above).

    You can be a named driver and some companies (DL included) offer starting to build your own NCB on someone else's car but you cannot be the main driver on that car, or you are fronting. There are insurers specialising in young drivers, who use telematics..these are worth looking at....as are companies that will insurer you on an interest free, monthly payment (so you're not stumping up all the cash upfront).

    As an aside, it is estimated that £40 - £50 is added to every single premium to cover fraud (primarily false claims)...as the whiplash laws have now been tightened up and claims management companies are coming under more scrutiny, it may be possible that premiums will start to come down (am sure they'll find a reason to keep them high though).

    One other piece of advice, NEVER, NEVER auto renew a car insurance policy - always go as a new driver, even with the same company, as you will always save £££s. Just did this when quoted £600 odd with Churchill...went in as a new customer and was £400 odd...switched to Privilege (I am a mid-40s 'safe' driver) and it was £350 (and both those brands are from the same company - Direct Line Group).

    Also worth noting...premiums start to creep up again from age 40, as they reckon your eyes/reflexes are starting to slow down....the sweet spot is 25 - 39...after that you're buggered...
  • From my experience albeit it was a few years ago.
    For both my sons i bought them a car, MOT'd it, taxed it and paid the first year of insurance. After which, they were financially on their own with it..
    Both sons also completed 'pass+' which did lower the premium a bit. I paid insurance of around £1600 3rd party in each case.
    All totally above board and legal.
    At the time, the cops were starting to use ANPR cameras and were nicking uninsured drivers. The fine at the time was around £250. Made behaving legally SEEM a poor choice.
  • Forgot to say: having a conviction for fraud tends to bugger up the job prospects as well.

    Fumbluff said:

    Fronting is what I usually have to ring the insurance company to tell them I've just fookin' broken off again on a speed bump....

    Word of advice never tell her indoors that you've got a bit of a problem with the front splitter.

    Anyway, jeez yeah, that's a sod. It kept happening to me when we had this - I could never understand why!

    image
  • I did it. The secret is to not crash. I had a couple of knocks but just didn't go through the insurance and the costs I paid were a lot less than paying 3000 per year. Admittedly I didn't get any no claims but I'm now I'm on my girlfriends insurance anyway as we share a car and will be for the foreseeable future.

    On a side note my girlfriend is a year younger than me and has written off every car she's had, yet her insurance is still have the price mine would be.
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