Just a brief note on Podemos in Spain. The number 3 in that party is now appearing regularly on the news for tax evasión, and the two main parties are jumping up and down to try and pin down Podemos as corrupt. Slightly bizarre, as the ex financial assessor of the PP (equivalent of the Tories) is facing a prison sentence for embezzling money, and has repeatedly said he was employed to money launder for them. The PSOE (they'd be Labour in the UK) have also had various members caught for financial corruption, but suddenly, both parties are united in their desire to rempove a very real threat for the next election. Politicians!
Greece should do what Venezuela did and reject austerity and capitalism and replace it with a fair and just State controlled economy led by down to earth "we represent the people" socialist politicians.
You cap the price of foods, you limit profits and you tax rich bastards to the hilt, or those left behind. You nationalise essential resources, in Venezuela's case oil production, so the income can be distributed fairly instead of falling into the hands of greedy capitalists. You achieve socialism of orgasmic proportion. What could go wrong?
Quite a lot it seems. The shops don't have any food to sell at any price, let alone capped prices. Queues start at 5 am to buy food that isn't on the shelves. Hospitals and medicines are free, except there aren's any medicines in the hospitals, so patients have to buy them and patients have to take in their own toilet paper. Inflation is at 300% and the choice is now Venezuela either defaulting on its debts, or supplying food to the population. The murder rate was 25,000 in 2013, 5 times the rate under the previous regime.
Socialism has won the war against wicked capitalism in Venezuela, let's rejoice at their success and encourage other counties to follow suit.
Yeah. Cos someone suggesting Greece bows out of the Euro is clearly attempting to correlate that with Venezuela...
Jesus wept
Sorry I was correlating the left wing agenda that won the election in Greece, and caused much knicker wetting for the armchair socialists over here, with the reality of a socialist agenda.
There is no point getting side-tracked by the left/right bullshit on this thread, it's irrelevant.
Bottom line is that you cannot borrow billions of dollars and then tell the lenders to get fucked without very, very serious consequences for doing so.
Greece needs foreign loans just to keep going - good luck getting so much as a luncheon voucher from anyone else after you just stiffed the Germans for €100 billion or whatever they owe.
Syriza took the easiest path to power possible, that being in telling people they could have their cake and eat it, and now they must pay the price for that.
Created loads of state jobs with no real function, offered state funded "final salary" pensions from age 55, borrowed beyond means and failed to collect tax. No wonder it didn't work. Expecting other countries to dig them out is wonderful rhetoric, but the country will be reduced to third world levels poverty within a year when the EU pulls the plug on the life support. Silly sods, they've made it about them milking their neighbours and suffering no consequence.
Syriza took the easiest path to power possible, that being in telling people they could have their cake and eat it, and now they must pay the price for that.
Don't think we as a nation can feel superior over Greek's voters for falling for this wheeze - time and time again the British voters have gone along with false promises despite it being unlikely they would be fulfilled. At least we have the stability and resources to survive when things go tits up.
Iceland had a massive problem 2008 and the volcancic eruption did not help but they picked themselves up
Not having a go at Disco for this point, but this sort of comment always seems to be dropped in about Iceland on any discussion on the eurozone and austerity/debt repayment in general, and it never seems to be discussed past that soundbite. How true is it in reality? Given its size and culture, Iceland would be well placed to restore credibility and implement any changes to government policy and debt, so it's believable.
I had a quick look and it seems that, say, Irish government debt is generally rated higher than Icelandic debt. Iceland seems to be rated lower than Spain, and the same as Italy, which in the eurozone discussion is usually presented as an example of one of the worse functioning governments.
Obviously, it's not hugely surprising that given a massive default in the last decade, it's taking time for Iceland to rebuild its reputation with creditors. However, the way Iceland is dropped into these discussions, you might think that everything has gone back to the way it was before default.
Just something I notice. I don't know much about Iceland post-default. I've read bits and pieces suggesting it wasn't an anti-austerity paradise, but I'm not sure.
Iceland had a massive problem 2008 and the volcancic eruption did not help but they picked themselves up
Not having a go at Disco for this point, but this sort of comment always seems to be dropped in about Iceland on any discussion on the eurozone and austerity/debt repayment in general, and it never seems to be discussed past that soundbite. How true is it in reality? Given its size and culture, Iceland would be well placed to restore credibility and implement any changes to government policy and debt, so it's believable.
I had a quick look and it seems that, say, Irish government debt is generally rated higher than Icelandic debt. Iceland seems to be rated lower than Spain, and the same as Italy, which in the eurozone discussion is usually presented as an example of one of the worse functioning governments.
Obviously, it's not hugely surprising that given a massive default in the last decade, it's taking time for Iceland to rebuild its reputation with creditors. However, the way Iceland is dropped into these discussions, you might think that everything has gone back to the way it was before default.
Just something I notice. I don't know much about Iceland post-default. I've read bits and pieces suggesting it wasn't an anti-austerity paradise, but I'm not sure.
Iceland is not really a country you can compare to any others. It's a big island with a great deal of natural wealth including cheap, clean, renewable energy. It has a similar population size to Reading except its population is generally a lot happier, healthier and better educated and well-off than the people of Reading. It has hardly any internal strife compared to other countries and has little external obligations or risks, to the point where it doesn't even have a full-time armed forces.
After the financial crisis they had to implement some austerity in order to reduce its borrowing but public spending per capita in Iceland was generally quite high anyway as many things such as higher education and universal healthcare are funded by the government. It has also had the benefit of being neither a member of the EU or the Eurozone, allowing it to be more flexible in its arrangements to deal with the impact of the global financial crisis.
The reason why Iceland's debt is rated horribly relates to how it left its creditors empty-handed when its banking system failed and the international fiasco that followed. People are reluctant to lend to them and unsurprising considering how much money was lost by international deposit holders with both Iceland's government and population unwilling to repay even part of what was lost.
They are a well developed, well educated country with a small population and lots of wealth. Their banking system fell over due to overexposure to the markets and not because it was borrowing more than it could pay back. Their problem was that they didn't want to pay their creditors even though they could and should have done so.
Iceland had a massive problem 2008 and the volcancic eruption did not help but they picked themselves up
Not having a go at Disco for this point, but this sort of comment always seems to be dropped in about Iceland on any discussion on the eurozone and austerity/debt repayment in general, and it never seems to be discussed past that soundbite. How true is it in reality? Given its size and culture, Iceland would be well placed to restore credibility and implement any changes to government policy and debt, so it's believable.
I had a quick look and it seems that, say, Irish government debt is generally rated higher than Icelandic debt. Iceland seems to be rated lower than Spain, and the same as Italy, which in the eurozone discussion is usually presented as an example of one of the worse functioning governments.
Obviously, it's not hugely surprising that given a massive default in the last decade, it's taking time for Iceland to rebuild its reputation with creditors. However, the way Iceland is dropped into these discussions, you might think that everything has gone back to the way it was before default.
Just something I notice. I don't know much about Iceland post-default. I've read bits and pieces suggesting it wasn't an anti-austerity paradise, but I'm not sure.
Iceland is not really a country you can compare to any others. It's a big island with a great deal of natural wealth including cheap, clean, renewable energy. It has a similar population size to Reading except its population is generally a lot happier, healthier and better educated and well-off than the people of Reading. It has hardly any internal strife compared to other countries and has little external obligations or risks, to the point where it doesn't even have a full-time armed forces.
After the financial crisis they had to implement some austerity in order to reduce its borrowing but public spending per capita in Iceland was generally quite high anyway as many things such as higher education and universal healthcare are funded by the government. It has also had the benefit of being neither a member of the EU or the Eurozone, allowing it to be more flexible in its arrangements to deal with the impact of the global financial crisis.
The reason why Iceland's debt is rated horribly relates to how it left its creditors empty-handed when its banking system failed and the international fiasco that followed. People are reluctant to lend to them and unsurprising considering how much money was lost by international deposit holders with both Iceland's government and population unwilling to repay even part of what was lost.
They are a well developed, well educated country with a small population and lots of wealth. Their banking system fell over due to overexposure to the markets and not because it was borrowing more than it could pay back. Their problem was that they didn't want to pay their creditors even though they could and should have done so.
That ain't saying much. People who lived under the Mujahideen and now the Taliban are probably happier, healthier and better-educated than the people of Reading...
There is no point getting side-tracked by the left/right bullshit on this thread, it's irrelevant.
Bottom line is that you cannot borrow billions of dollars and then tell the lenders to get fucked without very, very serious consequences for doing so.
Greece needs foreign loans just to keep going - good luck getting so much as a luncheon voucher from anyone else after you just stiffed the Germans for €100 billion or whatever they owe.
Syriza took the easiest path to power possible, that being in telling people they could have their cake and eat it, and now they must pay the price for that.
A holiday memory: On Kos .. A German coach pulled up at a 'tourist must see point' .. an aging Greek chap, obviously after an ouzo or ten shuffled up to the coach, proceeded to undo his flies, extract his old man, and piss up against the front wheel of the coach as the tourists were getting off, whilst shouting at the top of his voice and waving his free arm in the air. I asked the young lady in my company what he was shouting, she replied 'You f***ing German torturers, pay all the money you owe us from the war and get out of my country' .. so .. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts and holding grudges. I suspect that the Greeks would like nothing better than to stuff the Germans for a billion € or two and to put a spoke in the wheel of the New German Reich, a k a 'The Euro Zone'
According to the Spanish press, the Greeks are passing precisely that message on today. Basically, germany did'nt finish paying it's war reparations debt, so should'nt get on a high horse now if other countries follow suit, plus that Germany more tan anyone should remember the consequences of bankrupting a proud nation, which I asume was a dig at the Nazi's coming to power in 1933. I have to say their historical references are fairly sound. Just have to see if their finance minister is as on the ball.
The day Greece leaves the Euro and I think it will be soon it will be interesting in the next 2 years how they would pan out. They would have to have a currency devaluation which means cheaper holidays for all of us and Greece's main income is Tourism.
Iceland had a massive problem 2008 and the volcancic eruption did not help but they picked themselves up and I really think Greece could do the same.
Once Greece has become successful, the Mediterranean countries would follow suit and twe can finally say goodbye to the EU which can only be a good thing.
Sounds great, what a plan.
Oh, hold on.
The Greeks would STILL OWE billions to lenders and if they did not cough up (with a now devalued currency) then they would not get any more cash from anyone and would go into meltdown.
See Argentina for what happens when you take this road - and Iceland is in serious trouble too.
Not suprised with the prices they charge, AND having to pay for Peter Andre.
F**k Germany............Germany owes Greece an estimated 1.3 trillion euros in damages and has never paid a penny of it and has no intention of ever paying a penny of it. Let's not make the Germans out to be the hard done by scammed victims.
Personally I think their debt to Greece is a damn sight higher than that. The atrocities inflicted by German soldiers on Greek villages and towns, especially in the mountains were war crimes of the highest order. 1.3 trillion euros doesn't even come close to repairing even a fraction of what they did. Look up a town called Kalavryta for an example of their behaviour.
Hilarious that the Greeks are now pursuing the Germans for war damages - only about 60 years late chaps but do carry on.
Strange how they didn't mention this when taking the loans in the first place.....
What a shower of shite.
It is, but from the perspective of Greek taxpayers and those who have lost their pensions, those who are old enough to remember seeing their fellow countrymen and family members slaughtered, starved, kidnapped or abused by Germans, and now they see their country again being starved economically by a German-led bloc of bullies, it is perhaps understandable that they feel that Germany has no right to bully them considering their history and the fact Germany came out of WW2 a lot better off than the nations they occupied.
Hilarious that the Greeks are now pursuing the Germans for war damages - only about 60 years late chaps but do carry on.
Strange how they didn't mention this when taking the loans in the first place.....
What a shower of shite.
It is, but from the perspective of Greek taxpayers and those who have lost their pensions, those who are old enough to remember seeing their fellow countrymen and family members slaughtered, starved, kidnapped or abused by Germans, and now they see their country again being starved economically by a German-led bloc of bullies, it is perhaps understandable that they feel that Germany has no right to bully them considering their history and the fact Germany came out of WW2 a lot better off than the nations they occupied.
Bully them? All they want is for the Greeks to pay back what they owe - like they are obligated to do under the terms of the loans they willingly signed.
The Greek claims are about as serious as those from shakedown merchants like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton for "reparations" to be paid to black Americans for the slave trade.
It's a political ambit claim with zero credibility.
Hilarious that the Greeks are now pursuing the Germans for war damages - only about 60 years late chaps but do carry on.
Strange how they didn't mention this when taking the loans in the first place.....
What a shower of shite.
It is, but from the perspective of Greek taxpayers and those who have lost their pensions, those who are old enough to remember seeing their fellow countrymen and family members slaughtered, starved, kidnapped or abused by Germans, and now they see their country again being starved economically by a German-led bloc of bullies, it is perhaps understandable that they feel that Germany has no right to bully them considering their history and the fact Germany came out of WW2 a lot better off than the nations they occupied.
Bully them? All they want is for the Greeks to pay back what they owe - like they are obligated to do under the terms of the loans they willingly signed.
The Greek claims are about as serious as those from shakedown merchants like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton for "reparations" to be paid to black Americans for the slave trade.
It's a political ambit claim with zero credibility.
Oh I agree, from the perspective of the new Greek government it is a completely cynical tactic. I was referring to the perspective of the average Greek voter who see the EU as a German-dominated bloc that is threatening Greece instead of offering to help it, and in their anger they've voted for the party that claimed it would deal with the Germans. The history cannot be ignored though when judging the national mood, even if there is zero chance that the Greeks will get any sympathy from the EU due to past grievances.
Hilarious that the Greeks are now pursuing the Germans for war damages - only about 60 years late chaps but do carry on.
Strange how they didn't mention this when taking the loans in the first place.....
What a shower of shite.
It is, but from the perspective of Greek taxpayers and those who have lost their pensions, those who are old enough to remember seeing their fellow countrymen and family members slaughtered, starved, kidnapped or abused by Germans, and now they see their country again being starved economically by a German-led bloc of bullies, it is perhaps understandable that they feel that Germany has no right to bully them considering their history and the fact Germany came out of WW2 a lot better off than the nations they occupied.
If they were mature/pragmatic/intelligent enough though they'd realise that it is a ridiculous position to adopt.
WWII is, now, ancient history. Citing something that happened decades ago does nothing to solve today's problems. Palestinians would like all of Palestine back and for Israel not to exist. It ain't gonna happen. (And the Incas aren't getting reparations for the loss of Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, and Colombia either.)
Hilarious that the Greeks are now pursuing the Germans for war damages - only about 60 years late chaps but do carry on.
Strange how they didn't mention this when taking the loans in the first place.....
What a shower of shite.
It is, but from the perspective of Greek taxpayers and those who have lost their pensions, those who are old enough to remember seeing their fellow countrymen and family members slaughtered, starved, kidnapped or abused by Germans, and now they see their country again being starved economically by a German-led bloc of bullies, it is perhaps understandable that they feel that Germany has no right to bully them considering their history and the fact Germany came out of WW2 a lot better off than the nations they occupied.
If they were mature/pragmatic/intelligent enough though they'd realise that it is a ridiculous position to adopt.
WWII is, now, ancient history. Citing something that happened decades ago does nothing to solve today's problems. Palestinians would like all of Palestine back and for Israel not to exist. It ain't gonna happen. (And the Incas aren't getting reparations for the loss of Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, and Colombia either.)
Our population is hardly one to judge others for refusing to let history go or for acting maturely or pragmatically when it comes to our national politics.
Comments
Politicians!
You cap the price of foods, you limit profits and you tax rich bastards to the hilt, or those left behind. You nationalise essential resources, in Venezuela's case oil production, so the income can be distributed fairly instead of falling into the hands of greedy capitalists. You achieve socialism of orgasmic proportion. What could go wrong?
Quite a lot it seems. The shops don't have any food to sell at any price, let alone capped prices. Queues start at 5 am to buy food that isn't on the shelves. Hospitals and medicines are free, except there aren's any medicines in the hospitals, so patients have to buy them and patients have to take in their own toilet paper. Inflation is at 300% and the choice is now Venezuela either defaulting on its debts, or supplying food to the population. The murder rate was 25,000 in 2013, 5 times the rate under the previous regime.
Socialism has won the war against wicked capitalism in Venezuela, let's rejoice at their success and encourage other counties to follow suit.
forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/comment/1471271#Comment_1471271
Jesus wept
Bottom line is that you cannot borrow billions of dollars and then tell the lenders to get fucked without very, very serious consequences for doing so.
Greece needs foreign loans just to keep going - good luck getting so much as a luncheon voucher from anyone else after you just stiffed the Germans for €100 billion or whatever they owe.
Syriza took the easiest path to power possible, that being in telling people they could have their cake and eat it, and now they must pay the price for that.
Yes, sold them left wing bullshit. Just making the same point. It is not a solution.
I had a quick look and it seems that, say, Irish government debt is generally rated higher than Icelandic debt. Iceland seems to be rated lower than Spain, and the same as Italy, which in the eurozone discussion is usually presented as an example of one of the worse functioning governments.
Obviously, it's not hugely surprising that given a massive default in the last decade, it's taking time for Iceland to rebuild its reputation with creditors. However, the way Iceland is dropped into these discussions, you might think that everything has gone back to the way it was before default.
Just something I notice. I don't know much about Iceland post-default. I've read bits and pieces suggesting it wasn't an anti-austerity paradise, but I'm not sure.
After the financial crisis they had to implement some austerity in order to reduce its borrowing but public spending per capita in Iceland was generally quite high anyway as many things such as higher education and universal healthcare are funded by the government. It has also had the benefit of being neither a member of the EU or the Eurozone, allowing it to be more flexible in its arrangements to deal with the impact of the global financial crisis.
The reason why Iceland's debt is rated horribly relates to how it left its creditors empty-handed when its banking system failed and the international fiasco that followed. People are reluctant to lend to them and unsurprising considering how much money was lost by international deposit holders with both Iceland's government and population unwilling to repay even part of what was lost.
They are a well developed, well educated country with a small population and lots of wealth. Their banking system fell over due to overexposure to the markets and not because it was borrowing more than it could pay back. Their problem was that they didn't want to pay their creditors even though they could and should have done so.
A holiday memory: On Kos .. A German coach pulled up at a 'tourist must see point' .. an aging Greek chap, obviously after an ouzo or ten shuffled up to the coach, proceeded to undo his flies, extract his old man, and piss up against the front wheel of the coach as the tourists were getting off, whilst shouting at the top of his voice and waving his free arm in the air.
I asked the young lady in my company what he was shouting, she replied 'You f***ing German torturers, pay all the money you owe us from the war and get out of my country' .. so .. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts and holding grudges.
I suspect that the Greeks would like nothing better than to stuff the Germans for a billion € or two and to put a spoke in the wheel of the New German Reich, a k a 'The Euro Zone'
Personally I think their debt to Greece is a damn sight higher than that. The atrocities inflicted by German soldiers on Greek villages and towns, especially in the mountains were war crimes of the highest order. 1.3 trillion euros doesn't even come close to repairing even a fraction of what they did. Look up a town called Kalavryta for an example of their behaviour.
Strange how they didn't mention this when taking the loans in the first place.....
What a shower of shite.
The Greek claims are about as serious as those from shakedown merchants like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton for "reparations" to be paid to black Americans for the slave trade.
It's a political ambit claim with zero credibility.
WWII is, now, ancient history. Citing something that happened decades ago does nothing to solve today's problems. Palestinians would like all of Palestine back and for Israel not to exist. It ain't gonna happen. (And the Incas aren't getting reparations for the loss of Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, and Colombia either.)