I'll be at the meeting if I can get in, but see it as only the first step in a long haul. After all there is no evidence that Roly has any time for the views of the fans at any of his Network clubs.
We'll just have to come up with something different then, andy.
Must have an Achilles' heel somewhere....
It seems he is susceptible to some influence, even by being beguiled somewhat. I say that because he seems to be a bit in the thrall of Dudu Dahan, and also in thrall to his perception of his own intellect. In addition he likes employing young people, and he has referred to his clubs being his children, possibly he likes to indulge his sense of paternalism, perhaps he wants either love, or respect, or obedience to be what he gets out of it all. I think Mr Duchatelet is a complex man, and possibly looking for an Achilles Heel is looking for the wrong thing, he does not strike me as a weak man who will succumb to threats or attack. We may be obliged to try to understand Mr Duchatelet, even though he seems to have no interest in understanding us, which is a crying shame.
Am a believer in the trust- big time. So will be at the meeting wherever/whenever, fully support the timing, although I feel the phrase being thrown about ' heart being ripped out of the club' is to emotive. Agree with the Dippenhall approach, anyway I will probably leave the talking to those a lot more articulate than me!
''Then give me an answer as to how a multi millionaire investor who believes in bringing through home grown players has "ripped out the heart if the club "
So called investor who sold our best striker, then used that money to repair the pitch. Also gave away a decent CB and 100% club man in Morro our vice-capt. Guilty of bringing in a load of substandard men from the network. Do you need any more answers
A- never forgive RD for selling YK but that is a team matter. Players come & go B- Moro couldn't dislodge TBH / Bikey & wanted 1st team football. Given a free transfer as a thanks for his service C- the odd duff player but you don't know until they're tried. Been some good ones too
Still...... Your 3 examples are all regards the team and don't really explain your feeling of "hearts being ripped...." Etc etc.
As someone has mentioned earlier, if the trust could put up a thread with a document so people can give their name to, who unable to be at the meeting, enabling the trust to act on their behalf (proxy vote), that would increase the numbers, and although I think at first, RD would not care less if 30,000 voted against him, it may give him something to think about
How can the Trust act as your proxy vote before you know what's being voted on ?
Obviously, I did not mean give the trust the right to vote on anything, I probably did not explain it properly, I meant when the trust has formulated a proposal and need a vote to put before the supporters, for those who cannot get to London, give us a chance to vote.
''Then give me an answer as to how a multi millionaire investor who believes in bringing through home grown players has "ripped out the heart if the club "
So called investor who sold our best striker, then used that money to repair the pitch. Also gave away a decent CB and 100% club man in Morro our vice-capt. Guilty of bringing in a load of substandard men from the network. Do you need any more answers
A- never forgive RD for selling YK but that is a team matter. Players come & go B- Moro couldn't dislodge TBH / Bikey & wanted 1st team football. Given a free transfer as a thanks for his service C- the odd duff player but you don't know until they're tried. Been some good ones too
Still...... Your 3 examples are all regards the team and don't really explain your feeling of "hearts being ripped...." Etc etc.
Taxi_Lad, I do not know why you keep banging on and on, with the same old stuff.
There are literally tens of reasons people have already given.
I would have thought you've read them already, but if you haven't, go and have a look.
There are tens of threads to look at.
It will take you all night and most of tomorrow, to read why many people feel "the heart of the club" is being ripped out. They should surely answer your lack of understanding. Best of luck.
We appear to have a potential bond with the fans of Roly's other Network clubs. Maybe this could be expanded?
See this too me is the best approach, combining all clubs who are angry with the Rd model
It gives you instant numbers, it gives you a point of difference within the media and like it or not little old charlton are not a news worthy story
However, if we had a European group who joined together, including travelling to liege etc to protest take in a game and plan together
You may find his Achilles heal
Definitely part of the work we are doing. Need to build up the relationship, develop trust, but definitely, we are stronger together, especially as it now seems RD does not in fact have a plan built around one club's success.
If you replace 'ripping the heart out of the club' with 'removing any ambition' from the club it amounts to the same thing. You just look at what it is happening at STTV to see how it goes. A succession of mediocre network players, they rent the ground and all monies from the commercial buildings goes to Duchatelet. There is no ambition to get the club out of the division they are in.
This could easily be Charlton for the next few years. With all due respect to many other clubs in the network, there is less competition in sport and entertainment. In London, there are many big clubs. WHU have the premiership and the Olympic stadium. There is lots of alternative entertainment - theatre, music, clubs etc and this is without all the other general pursuits, family demands and DIY jobs that need doing. This is without going into managing to compete in a very strong league.
If Charlton does not show grit and ambition then how is the next generation of Charlton support going to be brought to the club ? How will the club survive? Not under the Duchatelet network banner of mediocrity. The Duchatelet network strategy is particularly disastrous for Charlton.
Duchatelet doesn't care because he can always fall back on the real estate of the Valley when everything has failed. He will not care about leaving a shell of a club. Charlton needs to be ambitious and moving forward to survive. I think this is why the question of ownership, strategy and ambition is so vital and urgent question to answer now.
''Then give me an answer as to how a multi millionaire investor who believes in bringing through home grown players has "ripped out the heart if the club "
So called investor who sold our best striker, then used that money to repair the pitch. Also gave away a decent CB and 100% club man in Morro our vice-capt. Guilty of bringing in a load of substandard men from the network. Do you need any more answers
A- never forgive RD for selling YK but that is a team matter. Players come & go B- Moro couldn't dislodge TBH / Bikey & wanted 1st team football. Given a free transfer as a thanks for his service C- the odd duff player but you don't know until they're tried. Been some good ones too
Still...... Your 3 examples are all regards the team and don't really explain your feeling of "hearts being ripped...." Etc etc.
Taxi_Lad, I do not know why you keep banging on and on, with the same old stuff.
There are literally tens of reasons people have already given.
I would have thought you've read them already, but if you haven't, go and have a look.
There are tens of threads to look at.
It will take you all night and most of tomorrow, to read why many people feel "the heart of the club" is being ripped out. They should surely answer your lack of understanding. Best of luck.
responding to Jensen not "banging on" and yes I've read most of the threads thanks
Good stuff Taxi_Lad. Then not sure why you don't understand. Perhaps it should be of sufficient concern, that tens of lifelong supporters are claiming that they will stop attending. That in itself should be enough to concern you, if nothing else.
As someone has mentioned earlier, if the trust could put up a thread with a document so people can give their name to, who unable to be at the meeting, enabling the trust to act on their behalf (proxy vote), that would increase the numbers, and although I think at first, RD would not care less if 30,000 voted against him, it may give him something to think about
How can the Trust act as your proxy vote before you know what's being voted on ?
Obviously, I did not mean give the trust the right to vote on anything, I probably did not explain it properly, I meant when the trust has formulated a proposal and need a vote to put before the supporters, for those who cannot get to London, give us a chance to vote.
Ah right, sorry - I thought you meant for this meeting.
I think calling a meeting is a great first step, well done to all behind it who will have to organise it all. There will be a lot of things we can do as fans in the interim, but the only ultimate solution is for a different owner with a totally different vision to replace RD. So one aim of the meeting should be how we can help to achieve that in the medium to long term. I think this will be a long hard grind, which fans need to be up for, I can only hope that we don't fall out of the Championship in the meantime.
Unless you know a Charlton fan with £30m to burn and RD is refusing to sell to him, I would caution against going in at the outset with an objective that might reflect a desired outcome, but it is just wishful thinking. Anyway, Ackworth is already on the case. We can easily be made to look like wannabe plastics mobbing up on owner/manager after a string of bad results. We want change, a good owner and a good manager, getting RD out doesn't guarantee anything will be better, just a change. We might get a passionate straw man as owner.
Personally, I would want to obtain from the owner an understanding of what, to many, are decisions that we believe are damaging the fabric of the club. No one can dismiss this as an unreasonable aim or hysterical. Don't make it easy for him to dismiss us as hysterical fans who don't value what he's done/promises for the club's infrastructure.
He may have some brilliant scheme so ingenious we would never have dreamed it. Unlikely I know, but why would he have anything to hide in giving us insight into his revolutionary way of managing football clubs if he is convinced we are heading for everlasting success. What is his definition of success? He may have a 5 year plan and doesn't regard relegation as a disaster, who knows, but if so, shouldn't we know?
I suggest we have to think in terms of incremental steps, the first of which is to establish a dialogue by bringing him to the table. Every step should be an advance towards getting RD to understand that we are serious and if he loses us, he has lost what he bought. The objective should be either he listens, and takes a more conventional, proven approach to successfully managing a club (e.g Southampton), or he understands that it is not worth him continuing his experiment with CAFC and wants out.
Defeat would be him having reason to ignore us. If he just refuses to engage and ignores us, then we can talk about Plan B, but I think most fans would just call it a day until things change for the better.
Just a view, there will no doubt be many more, how a consensus is reached will be the biggest challenge. A list of objectives and steps ought to be voted on in some way to get majority views, and provide a basis for orderly debate and decision making.
Well said. Fully get where you're coming from there @Dippenhall but the incremental approach can also be moved on at pace by early consideration of some specific options in given scenarios. For instance, the need for a Plan B in your outline is entirely predictable as a milestone - so if RD fails to engage with us what will we do? Then, i suggest, we are likely to be looking at ways to wrestle the club out of his network, and possibly fairly urgently, as a part of plan B. We would need to be careful not to wait for RD to set the timeline or for any more of his crass decision making to set us back as we gain momentum.
Good stuff Taxi_Lad. Then not sure why you don't understand. Perhaps it should be of sufficient concern, that tens of lifelong supporters are claiming that they will stop attending. That in itself should be enough to concern you, if nothing else.
It is a concern of course but i honestly bellieve those who feel like walking away do so ultimately because of results. They may have wound each other up to the point of hating RD, the network and all things Belgique but ive yet to hear a single valid reason for feeling this way that is not team performance related, player ability related, manager related etc.
Maybe its because we are all different. I would feel that way if my club's existence was being put in danger, or losing The Valley (for which we fought so hard to win back), or changng our name/team colours. That sort of thing in my opinion would be 'ripping the heart out of our club' and require mass action but this????? Not for me. I turn up with a burning desire to see the 11 wearing the badge play better than and beat the other lot. I long to see us again challenging at the top and maybe returning to the Prem. For me that is supporting the team. Walking away because things arent going swimmingly is a bit naff to be honest but hey each to their own.
I would rather see everyone getting togther to improve the atmosphere on matchdays and help those 11 players get some confidence back and start winning games and scoring goals again. The ability level is much maligned on here but those same players got us off to a good start, so for me ability is not in question. As for Guy Luzon, i give him a clean slate and hope he can build on the 2 draws. As i said on the 'being positive' thread runs like this dont go on forever and im sure some of the clubs hovering above us are due for a bad run too
Good stuff Taxi_Lad. Then not sure why you don't understand. Perhaps it should be of sufficient concern, that tens of lifelong supporters are claiming that they will stop attending. That in itself should be enough to concern you, if nothing else.
It is a concern of course but i honestly bellieve those who feel like walking away do so ultimately because of results. They may have wound each other up to the point of hating RD, the network and all things Belgique but ive yet to hear a single valid reason for feeling this way that is not team performance related, player ability related, manager related etc.
Maybe its because we are all different. I would feel that way if my club's existence was being put in danger, or losing The Valley (for which we fought so hard to win back), or changng our name/team colours. That sort of thing in my opinion would be 'ripping the heart out of our club' and require mass action but this????? Not for me. I turn up with a burning desire to see the 11 wearing the badge play better than and beat the other lot. I long to see us again challenging at the top and maybe returning to the Prem. For me that is supporting the team. Walking away because things arent going swimmingly is a bit naff to be honest but hey each to their own.
I would rather see everyone getting togther to improve the atmosphere on matchdays and help those 11 players get some confidence back and start winning games and scoring goals again. The ability level is much maligned on here but those same players got us off to a good start, so for me ability is not in question. As for Guy Luzon, i give him a clean slate and hope he can build on the 2 draws. As i said on the 'being positive' thread runs like this dont go on forever and im sure some of the clubs hovering above us are due for a bad run too
You are getting boring now. You are like their mouthpiece. Yes we get your point. Most don't agree with you so that is that.
Is there along with fans of Liege etc any value in lobbying UEFA / FIFA to outlaw this network/multiple club type ownership structure?
That's an interesting question. The Standard Socios, together with the Socios of Metz and Nantes are in touch with a group of European Parliament politicians who have set up a "Sports Intergroup" to discuss important issues across Europe. These Socios want to press the case for a mandatory extension of the German 51% ownership rule. That is very ambitious, whereas what you are suggesting is probably an easier target. We'll suggest it to them.
BTW the politicians in that group are not nobodies, and include Olli Rehn, a Finnish former European Commissioner for economic affairs. Lamentably, no British politician is in the group, but we thought we will bring this up with Clive Efford if they start to make progress.
We appear to have a potential bond with the fans of Roly's other Network clubs. Maybe this could be expanded?
See this too me is the best approach, combining all clubs who are angry with the Rd model
It gives you instant numbers, it gives you a point of difference within the media and like it or not little old charlton are not a news worthy story
However, if we had a European group who joined together, including travelling to liege etc to protest take in a game and plan together
You may find his Achilles heal
Definitely part of the work we are doing. Need to build up the relationship, develop trust, but definitely, we are stronger together, especially as it now seems RD does not in fact have a plan built around one club's success.
I study French & Spanish at university and have worked as a translator before, will quite happily help the Trust if you need any help looking for and contacting the relevant fan bodies at Liege and possibly Alcorcon.
We appear to have a potential bond with the fans of Roly's other Network clubs. Maybe this could be expanded?
See this too me is the best approach, combining all clubs who are angry with the Rd model
It gives you instant numbers, it gives you a point of difference within the media and like it or not little old charlton are not a news worthy story
However, if we had a European group who joined together, including travelling to liege etc to protest take in a game and plan together
You may find his Achilles heal
Definitely part of the work we are doing. Need to build up the relationship, develop trust, but definitely, we are stronger together, especially as it now seems RD does not in fact have a plan built around one club's success.
I study French & Spanish at university and have worked as a translator before, will quite happily help the Trust if you need any help looking for and contacting the relevant fan bodies at Liege and possibly Alcorcon.
Thanks for the offer. As I've mentioned above we already have an excellent relationship with the Standard Socios (who of course shame us with their excellent English; while @CharltonMadrid is trying to establish links at Alcorcon,bu so far without success, maybe if you can track the right group down, that would help him.
Well @Taxi_Lad there were just 11,000 through the turnstiles on Saturday for a Saturday game that could have took us to 12th in the championship. When we were relegated from this division 6 years ago we averaged 21,000. Three years in league one we averaged 17.6. 15.6 and 17.4.
The alarm bells shouldn't just be that people with 20, 30, 40, 50 years support are saying on here they think they have reached the end of the line due to a multitude of reasons surrounding the club / spitting their toys out of the pram (however you want to interpret it), it should also be that thousands have already walked away.
I agree @AFKABartram... Very worrying! I have half a dozen mates who hardly go anymore but none of it is to do with the current ownership. They stopped coming for various reasons over the past few seasons and fear there is a general malaise setting in
Good stuff Taxi_Lad. Then not sure why you don't understand. Perhaps it should be of sufficient concern, that tens of lifelong supporters are claiming that they will stop attending. That in itself should be enough to concern you, if nothing else.
It is a concern of course but i honestly bellieve those who feel like walking away do so ultimately because of results. They may have wound each other up to the point of hating RD, the network and all things Belgique but ive yet to hear a single valid reason for feeling this way that is not team performance related, player ability related, manager related etc.
Maybe its because we are all different. I would feel that way if my club's existence was being put in danger, or losing The Valley (for which we fought so hard to win back), or changng our name/team colours. That sort of thing in my opinion would be 'ripping the heart out of our club' and require mass action but this????? Not for me. I turn up with a burning desire to see the 11 wearing the badge play better than and beat the other lot. I long to see us again challenging at the top and maybe returning to the Prem. For me that is supporting the team. Walking away because things arent going swimmingly is a bit naff to be honest but hey each to their own.
I would rather see everyone getting togther to improve the atmosphere on matchdays and help those 11 players get some confidence back and start winning games and scoring goals again. The ability level is much maligned on here but those same players got us off to a good start, so for me ability is not in question. As for Guy Luzon, i give him a clean slate and hope he can build on the 2 draws. As i said on the 'being positive' thread runs like this dont go on forever and im sure some of the clubs hovering above us are due for a bad run too
Once again, I agree with a lot of what you say, re results etc.
I can't understand why you think it's all about results. It clearly isn't and you've said that you've read everyone's reasons.
Of course a lot of the discontent is re players and managers.
If you need a centre forward for over a year and get given 2nd/3rd rate goalies, I don't understand how you think that's all good.
If you need an attacking mid and are given a defensive mid, I don't understand how you think that's all good.
When you are sacking/letting go managers every 4/5 months, I don't understand how you think that's all good.
When you spend £750K on a Polish lad, that isn't good enough for The Football League, I don't understand ..............
I could go on for hours ............
But I don't think you'll ever understand.
Many fans think our club's existence (as a credible club) is being put in danger. This is the point !
How can you possibly be happy with an owner that isn't too bothered whether his team win ?
We turn up with a burning desire to see the 11 wearing the badge play better than and beat the other lot. We long to see us again challenging at the top and maybe returning to the Prem. That's the whole bloody point ! We do & the owner does not ! The owner doesn't appear to give a flying f*ck ! After the games he phones the coach and asks how the Liege loanees are getting on and why certain loanees aren't playing & makes it plain who he wants playing. He doesn't ask about why we lost the game. He isn't too concerned.
In relation to your final paragraph I agree entirely, but how are the players going to get their confidence back to the required level, knowing all the above ?
I can't help thinking of the handful of Wimbledon fans that followed the franchise club to Milton Keynes. Probably every club has a few. I blame society.
the 'football for a fiver' game will be a massive telling on what the fans and the public think of what's happening , whether we sell out or not is anyone's guess!
Comments
In addition he likes employing young people, and he has referred to his clubs being his children, possibly he likes to indulge his sense of paternalism, perhaps he wants either love, or respect, or obedience to be what he gets out of it all.
I think Mr Duchatelet is a complex man, and possibly looking for an Achilles Heel is looking for the wrong thing, he does not strike me as a weak man who will succumb to threats or attack.
We may be obliged to try to understand Mr Duchatelet, even though he seems to have no interest in understanding us, which is a crying shame.
' heart being ripped out of the club' is to emotive. Agree with the Dippenhall approach, anyway I will probably leave the talking to those a lot more articulate than me!
B- Moro couldn't dislodge TBH / Bikey & wanted 1st team football. Given a free transfer as a thanks for his service
C- the odd duff player but you don't know until they're tried. Been some good ones too
Still...... Your 3 examples are all regards the team and don't really explain your feeling of "hearts being ripped...." Etc etc.
See this too me is the best approach, combining all clubs who are angry with the Rd model
It gives you instant numbers, it gives you a point of difference within the media and like it or not little old charlton are not a news worthy story
However, if we had a European group who joined together, including travelling to liege etc to protest take in a game and plan together
You may find his Achilles heal
There are literally tens of reasons people have already given.
I would have thought you've read them already, but if you haven't, go and have a look.
There are tens of threads to look at.
It will take you all night and most of tomorrow, to read why many people feel "the heart of the club" is being ripped out. They should surely answer your lack of understanding. Best of luck.
This could easily be Charlton for the next few years. With all due respect to many other clubs in the network, there is less competition in sport and entertainment. In London, there are many big clubs. WHU have the premiership and the Olympic stadium. There is lots of alternative entertainment - theatre, music, clubs etc and this is without all the other general pursuits, family demands and DIY jobs that need doing. This is without going into managing to compete in a very strong league.
If Charlton does not show grit and ambition then how is the next generation of Charlton support going to be brought to the club ? How will the club survive? Not under the Duchatelet network banner of mediocrity. The Duchatelet network strategy is particularly disastrous for Charlton.
Duchatelet doesn't care because he can always fall back on the real estate of the Valley when everything has failed. He will not care about leaving a shell of a club. Charlton needs to be ambitious and moving forward to survive. I think this is why the question of ownership, strategy and ambition is so vital and urgent question to answer now.
I have said on numerous occasions I don't agree with the nay sayers but I like the fact people are actually thinking of a solution to achieve an end
Maybe its because we are all different. I would feel that way if my club's existence was being put in danger, or losing The Valley (for which we fought so hard to win back), or changng our name/team colours. That sort of thing in my opinion would be 'ripping the heart out of our club' and require mass action but this????? Not for me. I turn up with a burning desire to see the 11 wearing the badge play better than and beat the other lot. I long to see us again challenging at the top and maybe returning to the Prem. For me that is supporting the team. Walking away because things arent going swimmingly is a bit naff to be honest but hey each to their own.
I would rather see everyone getting togther to improve the atmosphere on matchdays and help those 11 players get some confidence back and start winning games and scoring goals again. The ability level is much maligned on here but those same players got us off to a good start, so for me ability is not in question. As for Guy Luzon, i give him a clean slate and hope he can build on the 2 draws. As i said on the 'being positive' thread runs like this dont go on forever and im sure some of the clubs hovering above us are due for a bad run too
like their mouthpiece. Yes we get your point. Most don't agree with you so that is that.
BTW the politicians in that group are not nobodies, and include Olli Rehn, a Finnish former European Commissioner for economic affairs. Lamentably, no British politician is in the group, but we thought we will bring this up with Clive Efford if they start to make progress.
sorry if that upsets you. the odd positive post amongst all your whinning. I'll jeave you to carry on despairing Mind you dont slit your wrists
Unsure though
The alarm bells shouldn't just be that people with 20, 30, 40, 50 years support are saying on here they think they have reached the end of the line due to a multitude of reasons surrounding the club / spitting their toys out of the pram (however you want to interpret it), it should also be that thousands have already walked away.
I can't understand why you think it's all about results. It clearly isn't and you've said that you've read everyone's reasons.
Of course a lot of the discontent is re players and managers.
If you need a centre forward for over a year and get given 2nd/3rd rate goalies, I don't understand how you think that's all good.
If you need an attacking mid and are given a defensive mid, I don't understand how you think that's all good.
When you are sacking/letting go managers every 4/5 months, I don't understand how you think that's all good.
When you spend £750K on a Polish lad, that isn't good enough for The Football League, I don't understand ..............
I could go on for hours ............
But I don't think you'll ever understand.
Many fans think our club's existence (as a credible club) is being put in danger. This is the point !
How can you possibly be happy with an owner that isn't too bothered whether his team win ?
We turn up with a burning desire to see the 11 wearing the badge play better than and beat the other lot. We long to see us again challenging at the top and maybe returning to the Prem. That's the whole bloody point ! We do & the owner does not ! The owner doesn't appear to give a flying f*ck ! After the games he phones the coach and asks how the Liege loanees are getting on and why certain loanees aren't playing & makes it plain who he wants playing. He doesn't ask about why we lost the game. He isn't too concerned.
In relation to your final paragraph I agree entirely, but how are the players going to get their confidence back to the required level, knowing all the above ?