We need to explore every avenue to ensure we are doing what's best for the club, the supporters and to make sure that CAFC is a viable and financially secure proposition and, as hard as it would be, if that means selling The Valley and moving to another ground then so be it.
We would not be "forced" to move like last time, but moving because The Valley, stuck in the middle of houses, cant offer what the club needs to face longer-term issues. Just think of the added attraction of being closer to the M25, thus making us more accessible to current fans in Essex / London / Kent / Herts etc and also to newer fans who might not attend due to the parking / transport link issues we currently all face at every home match.
It might not be the game you grew up with but you cant stand still and bang on about the past, when everyone else is looking at long-term issues, where clubs and the game will be in 5/10 yrs time and what sort of facilities its paying customers will expect in the future.
We've been noted and acclaimed as a progressive and forward thinking club since the current board took over. This is just further evidence of that.
You may not like it, but CAFC will survive without you if you decide its no longer for you. We wont survive (at the level at any rate) if we stick our heads in the stand, reminiscing about the good old days.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but just giving our future some thought we need to move with the times and if the expectation from the paying public / fan base is for "facilities" then we have to provide that. Its not like when most of us first went to games where all you needed was somewhere to stand, somewhere to get a drink and somewhere to piss (the floor?!).......... Times they are a changing! Not always for the better, but the club need to recognise they are changing and offer a product that reflects and caters for that evolution.
No idea mate. It doesn't feel like "my Charlton" at times as it is.
I don't want to see us move as SE7 / Floyd Road is "home" but if that's the only option open to the club due to the council or transport links etc then its either do or die in my mind.
Good argument Dan and it does work for a lot of clubs.
One of the main reasons for moving for most clubs is the increase in capacity and revenue - Arsenal, Liverpool etc.
Southend have just announced a move in 2008 to a new ground and it looks the nuts, similar to Coventry but smaller.
Charlton have a regular fanbase of 20-22k at a guess and there is potential to increase The Valley to 40k so I just dont see the need for it even if I could get over the fact that we were abandoning the home we fought so hard for.
Even if there was potential to attract loads more new fans I would still prefer a 40k Valley two thirds full to a 60k ground at The Dome or even worse in Kent - we are a London Club.
I cannot logically refute your financial arguments and I appreciate that you are to some extent playing devil's advocate.
Football for the fan though is in the heart not the head hence my Hogswell like comment:-)
As a small boy I fell in love with Charlton Athletic and The Valley. When Charlton moved to Selhurst and Upton Parks I confess to going infrequently, partly for genuine domestic reasons but partly also, if I'm honest, because it wasn't the same experience for me.
There may well in the future be a Premiership team bearing the name Charlton Athletic playing at, say, Ebsfleet but it will not be the club I support with my heart and, even though it is nearer my home, I can see that my response would more than likely be the same as in 1985.
Yes Dan if we move the Charlton business may survive and grow but would the club and what makes it special? It would take many years for fans to develop a real allegiance to a new area.
In the interim the ground would be full of neutrals wanting to watch a game of Premiership football, some say we have that now but now we do have a core of real, committed fans. Would we elsewhere? Arguably the club only survived the previous exile because of the burning hope amongst fans that one day it would return to The Valley.
I remember a potential move was on the cards a few years back, then it was to the Dome, and for awhile I was open minded about a move, the Dome site would be a bigger better ground, enabling Charlton to compete with the bigger teams etc etc. While mulling over whether I would support a move or not we played Stockport one midweek night. We crushed them pretty emphatically and the support was phemonenal as it ususally is under the lights. At that point I realised what the Valley meant to the club and what my support meant.
Maybe moving to a new ground will allow us to make an orderly transition from mid/lower Premiership team to a challenger but if so it would be at the expense of the soul of the club, something that it is intangible yet very real to us Addicks. All in all I'd rather we stayed where we were than risk everything and lose that unique character.
Len. I cant disagree with any of your points, but I want to be as open minded as possible, look at all the pros and cons and, as hard as it might be, not allow sentiment and my heart rule my head.
Having said that football and supporting a club through thick and thin is an emotive experience so I fully understand where both you and AFKA are coming from.
your last point is the most important for the fans, dan, the heart is what matters. i, and so many others, will not look at the pros and cons, we're football fans not consumers. we're there not for facilities, parking and all that nonsense, we're there for the love of the club.
Exactly - if I were 'consuming' Charlton like any other product then I would have stopped buying a long time ago. Over the past 2 and half seasons or so I've rarely enjoyed a game I've been to and find it a bind and a waste of valuable leisure time. Still I've renewed my season ticket every year regardless and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future regardless of the 'quality' of the 'product'.
For me being a football fan has nothing to do with the head, it's not logical, it's not a financial decision or a matter of maximising your enjoyment per pound, it's a blind love of the club. I honestly think a move from the Valley would have me considering finishing my relationship with Charlton as the club, which I already consider to be very different to the one I fell in love with, would have abandoned it's fundamental characteristics to such an extent it'd be barely recognisable to me.
I also don't agree that a club can survive without its fans. Premiership fans are fickle and will drift between clubs and even in and out of the game as a whole - for a club to have stability it needs a hardcore fan base not shiny plastic seats, allocated parking and cushioned toilet paper in the gents.
Les and PITL - Guys don't get me wrong I feel exactly the same way. If I had wanted to watch sparkling football I wouldnt have started following Charlton all those years ago.
What I am saying is that we have to recognise that football isn't what it used to be 25/20/15 or even 10 yrs ago. Its big business these days were money talks and if we want to carry on being competitive (at this level) then we need to move with the times.
Let me just reiterate that I DONT want us to move, anymore than you do. But if we have to 1) I fully understand why & 2) trust that the board have thought through all the alternatives and have decided this is the best, and possibly only, option open to us.
[cite] CharltonDan:[/cite] Its big business these days were money talks and if we want to carry on being competitive (at this level) then we need to move with the times.
But whether you can 'move with the times' is surely dependant on your support (or customer) base ? Arsenal are able to move with the times, because they have a huge following and are particularly attractive on a commercial basis. We are not.
The real sustainability of a club is trying to work out what would happen in the bad times. If we dropped to division 2, we would not get the 30k crowds that man City managed to keep attracting, the attendance for the Bolton cup game will give you an indication of just how true our hard core really is. And the vast bulk of the hardcore are made up of the type of fan who will say they would have no interest in Charlton away from the Valley.
We would no doubt see no adverse effect in the short term, may even benefit further, but the long-term would be a risk because a big part of the foundations would be taken away.
True and I can see what your point of view Bart, but what you're are saying is that the loyal and hardcore supporters are going to stop attending just because we move our ground? Is this the actions of loyal and commited fans?
I support Charlton Athletic Football Club and as such my loyalty is to them, not The Valley.
AFKA said........the vast bulk of the hardcore are made up of the type of fan who will say they would have no interest in Charlton away from the Valley
so was it the hardcore fans that followed us to Sellhurst park? If you were loyal you'd still follow them where ever they played their home games (within reason)
you can't really compare the two. The Selhurst move was almost forced, the club was on its knees. Its not now, its moved on and progressed, and with the return that you realised how important The Valley is too it all.
Were we to move to a new ground and a new future, we should of done when returning from exile.
That moment has passed. Like PITL insinuated, i got to Charlton every other week virtually out of habit, regardless of how well the team are doing or the standard of the opposition. If i did not have that tie i would not do it as frequantly.
I fell in love with Charlton in the 70's. My dad took me Charlton home one week, then Millwall home the next. Then we gave up on Millwall and went home and away with Charlton. My Dad's ashes were scattered in the Covere End goalmouth. I refeused to go to Selhurst for the first 3-4 months but then the prospect of First Div football won me over and I started going with my bro. We went pretty much every game and also to Upton Park. I was never really part of the Valley Party, etc, but went to every Woolwich Town Hall meeting to get back to the Valley. The 90's was a fantastic decade for Charlton and I loved every minute of following the Club. I will never forget the Play-off final but the first game back holds so many memories for me (and every one else who was there)
If Charlton were to leave the Valley again, I am pretty sure I now don't feel the same way. Yes, we have to grow the Club and footie has changed for the better in so many ways. But we have also lost a feeling of unity and the passion and noise that were there with 8,000 - 16,000 in the ground is only replicated in one or two games a season.
So, if we were to leave the Valley again, the Board had also better to take into account the number of fans who may just decide that enough's enough. I actually cannot comprehend this as a possibility but, then again, I didn't believe it when it happened the first time around either!
I fell in love with Charlton in the 70's. My dad took me Charlton home one week, then Millwall home the next. Then we gave up on Millwall and went home and away with Charlton. My Dad's ashes were scattered in the Covere End goalmouth. I refeused to go to Selhurst for the first 3-4 months but then the prospect of First Div football won me over and I started going with my bro. We went pretty much every game and also to Upton Park. I was never really part of the Valley Party, etc, but went to every Woolwich Town Hall meeting to get back to the Valley. The 90's was a fantastic decade for Charlton and I loved every minute of following the Club. I will never forget the Play-off final but the first game back holds so many memories for me (and every one else who was there)
If Charlton were to leave the Valley again, I am pretty sure I now don't feel the same way. Yes, we have to grow the Club and footie has changed for the better in so many ways. But we have also lost a feeling of unity and the passion and noise that were there with 8,000 - 16,000 in the ground is only replicated in one or two games a season.
So, if we were to leave the Valley again, the Board had also better to take into account the number of fans who may just decide that enough's enough. I actually cannot comprehend this as a possibility but, then again, I didn't believe it when it happened the first time around either!
[cite] CharltonDan:[/cite]True and I can see what your point of view Bart, but what you're are saying is that the loyal and hardcore supporters are going to stop attending just because we move our ground? Is this the actions of loyal and commited fans?
I support Charlton Athletic Football Club and as such my loyalty is to them, not The Valley.
.
I see your point Dan but as AFKA says, there's a big difference between the Charlton that's forced away from The Valley and the Charlton that chooses to leave. Charlton have already become too commercial and sanitised for my liking (and I'm not knocking the board I appreciate why they've done so - for me personally though it's losing appeal with every step closer to it becoming a business rather than a football club) - the Charlton that chooses to move from The Valley is too far over that 'business' line for me and not really the club I'm loyal too. It's hard to say for sure but there's a chance that for me it'd just be a step too far in the wrong direction.
I raised the point that the club has become sanitised enough. I'd like ot make clear that i tihnk most of us can understand fully the reasons why this has happened and in the main support that.
The vast majority of us are extremely supportive of our board, a lot more than virtually every football club that i can think of, but i don't think it does any harm to remind sometimes the things that remain important to us, and that the time we individually see Charlton as a business, and ourselves as consumers, will be the time that they are likely to lose our loyalty.
I don't think we would gain 15-20,000 new Addicks just by moving to a new stadium. The only way we'll gain that number of new fans is by playing a consistently better standard of football and winning more often. Currently any home match against the top four-six teams (who generally other than derbies pull the punters in) is more or less a guaranteed away win with a draw being a result for us and a very occasional victory. When we can beat that quality of opponent consistently then we have to decide whether to stay or move. We aren't at that level yet.
[cite] BlackForestReds:[/cite]I don't think we would gain 15-20,000 new Addicks just by moving to a new stadium. The only way we'll gain that number of new fans is by playing a consistently better standard of football and winning more often. Currently any home match against the top four-six teams (who generally other than derbies pull the punters in) is more or less a guaranteed away win with a draw being a result for us and a very occasional victory. When we can beat that quality of opponent consistently then we have to decide whether to stay or move. We aren't at that level yet.
Isnt that a chicken and egg situation with reagrd to turnover though?
Isnt that a chicken and egg situation with reagrd to turnover though?
Partly, but the reality is that we are currently struggling to fill the Valley when capacity is just over 27K, and when ticket prices are still relatively speaking competitive. Moving to a new stadium with a 40-45k capacity and filling it without dropping ticket prices just isn't feasible in the short-term (5-10 years) - that would mean getting 30-35k regulars week in/week out and right now our fan base just isn't big enough, the one thing that would make it that size is the catalyst of finishing in the top six, or winning the FA Cup or even attracting European opponents via the UEFA Cup/CL. Until we are in a position to do that I vote we stay put.
Comments
cheers
Maybe we should stop there. You've summed it up nicely. This discussion is enough to make you feel sick so let's stop it.
cheers.
We would not be "forced" to move like last time, but moving because The Valley, stuck in the middle of houses, cant offer what the club needs to face longer-term issues. Just think of the added attraction of being closer to the M25, thus making us more accessible to current fans in Essex / London / Kent / Herts etc and also to newer fans who might not attend due to the parking / transport link issues we currently all face at every home match.
It might not be the game you grew up with but you cant stand still and bang on about the past, when everyone else is looking at long-term issues, where clubs and the game will be in 5/10 yrs time and what sort of facilities its paying customers will expect in the future.
We've been noted and acclaimed as a progressive and forward thinking club since the current board took over. This is just further evidence of that.
You may not like it, but CAFC will survive without you if you decide its no longer for you. We wont survive (at the level at any rate) if we stick our heads in the stand, reminiscing about the good old days.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but just giving our future some thought we need to move with the times and if the expectation from the paying public / fan base is for "facilities" then we have to provide that. Its not like when most of us first went to games where all you needed was somewhere to stand, somewhere to get a drink and somewhere to piss (the floor?!).......... Times they are a changing! Not always for the better, but the club need to recognise they are changing and offer a product that reflects and caters for that evolution.
But how much more could we realistically change before its not 'Charlton' any more ?
I don't want to see us move as SE7 / Floyd Road is "home" but if that's the only option open to the club due to the council or transport links etc then its either do or die in my mind.
One of the main reasons for moving for most clubs is the increase in capacity and revenue - Arsenal, Liverpool etc.
Southend have just announced a move in 2008 to a new ground and it looks the nuts, similar to Coventry but smaller.
Charlton have a regular fanbase of 20-22k at a guess and there is potential to increase The Valley to 40k so I just dont see the need for it even if I could get over the fact that we were abandoning the home we fought so hard for.
Even if there was potential to attract loads more new fans I would still prefer a 40k Valley two thirds full to a 60k ground at The Dome or even worse in Kent - we are a London Club.
Another song lost!
I cannot logically refute your financial arguments and I appreciate that you are to some extent playing devil's advocate.
Football for the fan though is in the heart not the head hence my Hogswell like comment:-)
As a small boy I fell in love with Charlton Athletic and The Valley. When Charlton moved to Selhurst and Upton Parks I confess to going infrequently, partly for genuine domestic reasons but partly also, if I'm honest, because it wasn't the same experience for me.
There may well in the future be a Premiership team bearing the name Charlton Athletic playing at, say, Ebsfleet but it will not be the club I support with my heart and, even though it is nearer my home, I can see that my response would more than likely be the same as in 1985.
Yes Dan if we move the Charlton business may survive and grow but would the club and what makes it special? It would take many years for fans to develop a real allegiance to a new area.
In the interim the ground would be full of neutrals wanting to watch a game of Premiership football, some say we have that now but now we do have a core of real, committed fans. Would we elsewhere? Arguably the club only survived the previous exile because of the burning hope amongst fans that one day it would return to The Valley.
Maybe moving to a new ground will allow us to make an orderly transition from mid/lower Premiership team to a challenger but if so it would be at the expense of the soul of the club, something that it is intangible yet very real to us Addicks. All in all I'd rather we stayed where we were than risk everything and lose that unique character.
Having said that football and supporting a club through thick and thin is an emotive experience so I fully understand where both you and AFKA are coming from.
For me being a football fan has nothing to do with the head, it's not logical, it's not a financial decision or a matter of maximising your enjoyment per pound, it's a blind love of the club. I honestly think a move from the Valley would have me considering finishing my relationship with Charlton as the club, which I already consider to be very different to the one I fell in love with, would have abandoned it's fundamental characteristics to such an extent it'd be barely recognisable to me.
I also don't agree that a club can survive without its fans. Premiership fans are fickle and will drift between clubs and even in and out of the game as a whole - for a club to have stability it needs a hardcore fan base not shiny plastic seats, allocated parking and cushioned toilet paper in the gents.
What I am saying is that we have to recognise that football isn't what it used to be 25/20/15 or even 10 yrs ago. Its big business these days were money talks and if we want to carry on being competitive (at this level) then we need to move with the times.
Let me just reiterate that I DONT want us to move, anymore than you do. But if we have to 1) I fully understand why & 2) trust that the board have thought through all the alternatives and have decided this is the best, and possibly only, option open to us.
But whether you can 'move with the times' is surely dependant on your support (or customer) base ? Arsenal are able to move with the times, because they have a huge following and are particularly attractive on a commercial basis. We are not.
The real sustainability of a club is trying to work out what would happen in the bad times. If we dropped to division 2, we would not get the 30k crowds that man City managed to keep attracting, the attendance for the Bolton cup game will give you an indication of just how true our hard core really is. And the vast bulk of the hardcore are made up of the type of fan who will say they would have no interest in Charlton away from the Valley.
We would no doubt see no adverse effect in the short term, may even benefit further, but the long-term would be a risk because a big part of the foundations would be taken away.
I support Charlton Athletic Football Club and as such my loyalty is to them, not The Valley.
so was it the hardcore fans that followed us to Sellhurst park? If you were loyal you'd still follow them where ever they played their home games (within reason)
Were we to move to a new ground and a new future, we should of done when returning from exile.
That moment has passed. Like PITL insinuated, i got to Charlton every other week virtually out of habit, regardless of how well the team are doing or the standard of the opposition. If i did not have that tie i would not do it as frequantly.
If Charlton were to leave the Valley again, I am pretty sure I now don't feel the same way. Yes, we have to grow the Club and footie has changed for the better in so many ways. But we have also lost a feeling of unity and the passion and noise that were there with 8,000 - 16,000 in the ground is only replicated in one or two games a season.
So, if we were to leave the Valley again, the Board had also better to take into account the number of fans who may just decide that enough's enough. I actually cannot comprehend this as a possibility but, then again, I didn't believe it when it happened the first time around either!
If Charlton were to leave the Valley again, I am pretty sure I now don't feel the same way. Yes, we have to grow the Club and footie has changed for the better in so many ways. But we have also lost a feeling of unity and the passion and noise that were there with 8,000 - 16,000 in the ground is only replicated in one or two games a season.
So, if we were to leave the Valley again, the Board had also better to take into account the number of fans who may just decide that enough's enough. I actually cannot comprehend this as a possibility but, then again, I didn't believe it when it happened the first time around either!
I see your point Dan but as AFKA says, there's a big difference between the Charlton that's forced away from The Valley and the Charlton that chooses to leave. Charlton have already become too commercial and sanitised for my liking (and I'm not knocking the board I appreciate why they've done so - for me personally though it's losing appeal with every step closer to it becoming a business rather than a football club) - the Charlton that chooses to move from The Valley is too far over that 'business' line for me and not really the club I'm loyal too. It's hard to say for sure but there's a chance that for me it'd just be a step too far in the wrong direction.
The vast majority of us are extremely supportive of our board, a lot more than virtually every football club that i can think of, but i don't think it does any harm to remind sometimes the things that remain important to us, and that the time we individually see Charlton as a business, and ourselves as consumers, will be the time that they are likely to lose our loyalty.
Isnt that a chicken and egg situation with reagrd to turnover though?
Partly, but the reality is that we are currently struggling to fill the Valley when capacity is just over 27K, and when ticket prices are still relatively speaking competitive. Moving to a new stadium with a 40-45k capacity and filling it without dropping ticket prices just isn't feasible in the short-term (5-10 years) - that would mean getting 30-35k regulars week in/week out and right now our fan base just isn't big enough, the one thing that would make it that size is the catalyst of finishing in the top six, or winning the FA Cup or even attracting European opponents via the UEFA Cup/CL. Until we are in a position to do that I vote we stay put.