So people are digging out Tom Ince (23 years old) for turning down the England U21s ? If only Adam Johnson had turned down something he was too old for.
Bit of an unfair comparison that don't you think? Committing and alleged crime (innocent until proved guilty remember) and turning down the U21's is completely different.
Wasn't meant seriously I'm sure.
The problem on here is that you never can tell....
Know what you mean there Oggy but maybe thats the problem with the English game... As English we seem to take the approach that we've got to win at all costs, maybe if they changed the rules to:
Once you go over U21 am sorry you cant play for the U21 side.
Yes it means that you may lose your star Striker or outstanding Goalkeeper but it ensures that more opportunities are given to kids to try and impress on the big stage and that winning competitions until you get to a Senior Squad (International and Club level) is nothing more than a side show
So what happens if a player turns 22 between the Semi-Final and the Final of the tournament?
There has to be a cut off point and it is unfair on the players (and likely to make them less interested) if they are allowed to play in all the crappy qualification matches but then not allowed to go to the finals.
As for Tom Ince, I know very little about him, but all players seem to be discouraged, by their club managers, from going to these tournaments these days. We need to remember that it is the employer that pays their wages, and decides their contracts, that are discouraging them from going. If McLaren has, even only slightly, hinted at him that a summer tournament might make him tired/injured and would question if he would be worth a contract for next season then he'd be a complete fool to go.
I'd also ask how many of you, that are slating him, would give up half of your annual holiday to go on a course/seminar that was work related for no extra money that could, potentially, affect your career when you return to work?
I, personally, think that Tom Ince has about as much chance of appearing for the full England side as I do so why would he want to go to a one off tournament, to be subjected to the vile abuse that England players get if they don't win the whole thing every time? Especially as many (pretty much all on here) have already decided that he is arrogant/untalented/disrespectful/other insults that are outrageous from people that have probably seen him play half a dozen times and read 'stories' about him.
The problem there, though ........ if only the England U21 played to those rules, and other countries' U21s did not - then England U21 are so massively disadvantaged that every competitive game has no more value than a meaningless friendly.
IMO the U21 set up does have a value, in that it gives experience and prepares good young players for senior international competition.
The only alternative would be turn the present rules on their head - and allow only players who will be 21 or under at the date of the Final. That would mean at the commencement of competition, there wouldn't be any players over the age of 18 or 19 permitted. Which is equally illogical.
You do have to draw the line somewhere. At least the present age rules are the same for all teams.
Know what you mean there Oggy but maybe thats the problem with the English game... As English we seem to take the approach that we've got to win at all costs, maybe if they changed the rules to:
Once you go over U21 am sorry you cant play for the U21 side.
Yes it means that you may lose your star Striker or outstanding Goalkeeper but it ensures that more opportunities are given to kids to try and impress on the big stage and that winning competitions until you get to a Senior Squad (International and Club level) is nothing more than a side show
So what happens if a player turns 22 between the Semi-Final and the Final of the tournament?
There has to be a cut off point and it is unfair on the players (and likely to make them less interested) if they are allowed to play in all the crappy qualification matches but then not allowed to go to the finals.
As for Tom Ince, I know very little about him, but all players seem to be discouraged, by their club managers, from going to these tournaments these days. We need to remember that it is the employer that pays their wages, and decides their contracts, that are discouraging them from going. If McLaren has, even only slightly, hinted at him that a summer tournament might make him tired/injured and would question if he would be worth a contract for next season then he'd be a complete fool to go.
I'd also ask how many of you, that are slating him, would give up half of your annual holiday to go on a course/seminar that was work related for no extra money that could, potentially, affect your career when you return to work?
I, personally, think that Tom Ince has about as much chance of appearing for the full England side as I do so why would he want to go to a one off tournament, to be subjected to the vile abuse that England players get if they don't win the whole thing every time? Especially as many (pretty much all on here) have already decided that he is arrogant/untalented/disrespectful/other insults that are outrageous from people that have probably seen him play half a dozen times and read 'stories' about him.
Just to play Devils Advocate, you understand!
Definitely agree there would have to be a cut-off point and for a main tournament that should be when the Managers have to name their Squad
And understand where your coming from in terms of the club plays the wages approach maybe clubs when they sign a player have to have a clause inserted by their FA which states that if a player is good enough to play for their country then the club have to release them for duty if called upon, if the club dont like it then they shouldnt be signing a player that could have such high potential.
(i.e. the club as well should be proud that one their players is representing their country)... Although in the same vein its understandable if a player gets injured the club should maybe receive a small amount of compensation (thats got to be controlled as well though to ensure that grassroots doesnt get effected by that).
Sorry if its difficult to follow... Was trying to play devils advocate from both sides there
The injury issue is compounded by history. There have been many over the years but England taking Daniel Sturridge when Liverpool said he was injured, playing him, and sending him home unable to play for three months could cost them a place in the Champions League.
I also suspect that many of the players that retire from International Football before they need to are encouraged to do so by their club managers too.
And we wonder why our national team is awful. Our U21s consist of players like Tom Ince. I bet Germany, Spain and Brazil's squads don't have 23 year old players who have and never will make it big.
All the he squads will have 22 and 23 year olds in them, and other countries take it far more seriously. Hence 6 of the Germany team that won it 4 years ago were in the world cup winning squad last summer, whilst we only had 1 losing finalist from 4 years ago in our world cup losing squad.
Personally many people's physiology are different. People with less red blood cells and lower testosterone need more time to recover. It seems strange in that he's had a staccato season, but this tiresome judging of individual's choices are base on little knowledge of the individual's circumstances.
Comments
There has to be a cut off point and it is unfair on the players (and likely to make them less interested) if they are allowed to play in all the crappy qualification matches but then not allowed to go to the finals.
As for Tom Ince, I know very little about him, but all players seem to be discouraged, by their club managers, from going to these tournaments these days. We need to remember that it is the employer that pays their wages, and decides their contracts, that are discouraging them from going. If McLaren has, even only slightly, hinted at him that a summer tournament might make him tired/injured and would question if he would be worth a contract for next season then he'd be a complete fool to go.
I'd also ask how many of you, that are slating him, would give up half of your annual holiday to go on a course/seminar that was work related for no extra money that could, potentially, affect your career when you return to work?
I, personally, think that Tom Ince has about as much chance of appearing for the full England side as I do so why would he want to go to a one off tournament, to be subjected to the vile abuse that England players get if they don't win the whole thing every time? Especially as many (pretty much all on here) have already decided that he is arrogant/untalented/disrespectful/other insults that are outrageous from people that have probably seen him play half a dozen times and read 'stories' about him.
Just to play Devils Advocate, you understand!
IMO the U21 set up does have a value, in that it gives experience and prepares good young players for senior international competition.
The only alternative would be turn the present rules on their head - and allow only players who will be 21 or under at the date of the Final. That would mean at the commencement of competition, there wouldn't be any players over the age of 18 or 19 permitted.
Which is equally illogical.
You do have to draw the line somewhere.
At least the present age rules are the same for all teams.
And understand where your coming from in terms of the club plays the wages approach maybe clubs when they sign a player have to have a clause inserted by their FA which states that if a player is good enough to play for their country then the club have to release them for duty if called upon, if the club dont like it then they shouldnt be signing a player that could have such high potential.
(i.e. the club as well should be proud that one their players is representing their country)... Although in the same vein its understandable if a player gets injured the club should maybe receive a small amount of compensation (thats got to be controlled as well though to ensure that grassroots doesnt get effected by that).
Sorry if its difficult to follow... Was trying to play devils advocate from both sides there
I also suspect that many of the players that retire from International Football before they need to are encouraged to do so by their club managers too.
Hate to think how much they are spending on promotion. LOL