I remember something similar with a Greek flight and it was due to the cabin gradually depressurising. Everyone aboard lost consciousness before the crash, so at least the families had the knowledge that their family members didn't suffer.
Helios 552. Excellent episode of air crash investigation on that one
One of the best episodes that. That show is the reason I didn't fly between the ages of 15 and 23.
I remember something similar with a Greek flight and it was due to the cabin gradually depressurising. Everyone aboard lost consciousness before the crash, so at least the families had the knowledge that their family members didn't suffer.
Helios 552. Excellent episode of air crash investigation on that one
Seem to remember that one, seem to recall it was a flight attendent who stayed concsious for the longest and tried to fly the plane to safety.
I flew to Germany from Barcelona two weeks ago, and a mate just rang me that he was in Perpignan looking for his wife, who was waiting for the plane in Dusseldorf yesterday to fly back to Barcelona (she came back on the train via Paris, and in her shoes's, I'd have done the same). They say a miss is as good as a mile, but it's one that makes you think. Then there are the ones who were actually on the plane. I can't bear to think what the last few minutes were like. RIP
I flew to Germany from Barcelona two weeks ago, and a mate just rang me that he was in Perpignan looking for his wife, who was waiting for the plane in Dusseldorf yesterday to fly back to Barcelona (she came back on the train via Paris, and in her shoes's, I'd have done the same). They say a miss is as good as a mile, but it's one that makes you think. Then there are the ones who were actually on the plane. I can't bear to think what the last few minutes were like. RIP
Awful, awful.
Reading the various reports with my amateur eye, my strong suspicion is that it was a depressurisation situation - certainly hope so in that if it was, everyone would just have suffered hypoxia and lost consciousness without knowing what was about to happen.
I say this because by all accounts the descent took about 8 minutes, which is more than enough time for the pilots to issue a distress call. The fact that neither appears to have done so suggests that they both must have been incapacitated, which could only really be explained by a hi-jack or somesuch cockpit incursion or deliberate act, or the depressurisation theory. And with all the alarms that would been going off, the lack of intervention by conscious pilots is inexplicable unless it was deliberately flown into the mountain. And though hi-jack is a possibility, it is probably highly unlikely on a flight between Germany and Spain - especially with locked cockpits these days.
Moreover, given that the plane was 24 years old and near the end of its shelf life, having been used for thousands of short flights where it repeatedly has to contract and expand to pressurise and straining the airframe each time, it means that a pressurisation failure is not an altogether fanciful theory. All it would have taken would have been for one of the pilots to lose consciousness, nudge the yoke (steering column thingy) - which would automatically cause the auto-pilot to shut off - and the plane would have had nothing to keep it in the air and so would have just headed to the ground. Not an expert theory on my part by any stretch - entirely based on my having watched every single episode of Air Crash Investigation.
Not much consolation for those that have lost loved ones, but if I were in that terrible situation I would be trying to convince myself this is what happened with all my might - just to try and put one foot in front of the other and get through these upcoming days and months.
Its a bit of a worry when you get in a 737 or A320 in that they have been making them for years and its hard to tell if you are getting onboard a nearly new plane or one thats approaching 25 years old. I know the maintenance is carefully regulated but I would think twice about driving a 25 year old car a long distance, and some of these planes have had a very hard life with lots of takeoffs and landings.
Strangely the youngest planes now tend to be flown by the low cost airlines (excepting Eurowings who seem to have inherited the planes cast off by Lufthansa), who work the planes hard but replace them every 3-5 years before the heavy and expensive maintenance checks kick in.
It seems now that the descent took up to 18 mins which must imply it wasnt a massive structural problem but something like pilot incapacitation or navigation problems. As these planes are largely computer controled they wont allow the plane to fly outside a carefully defined flight envelope and doesnt allow the pilot to make imputs that would endanger the plane so its very strange what could have caused this.
Reports now circulating that the cockpit voice findings will, at a top line level, be announced tomorrow . And multiple news sources are suggesting that the pilot can be heard leaving the cockpit and then knocking to come back in.....but no answer. Knocking becomes more urgent and still no answer. He then tries to break down the door. Surely if that were true then can pilot suicide, shocking as it is, be considered? Other options being that he became incapacitated (heart attack)?
Reports now circulating that the cockpit voice findings will, at a top line level, be announced tomorrow . And multiple news sources are suggesting that the pilot can be heard leaving the cockpit and then knocking to come back in.....but no answer. Knocking becomes more urgent and still no answer. He then tries to break down the door. Surely if that were true then can pilot suicide, shocking as it is, be considered?
At the risk of adding to the conjecture; I had wondered if this was a deliberate act - if not suicide then an action by another party. It's curious that yesterday there was reports of a distress call, but now the official report appears to be that the last contact with the plane 'routine'.
I'm not sure of the security measures affecting EU flights (if all airlines implement all measures on all routes regardless of whether the route involves the US) but I seem to recall that the post 9/11 security measures involved cockpit security, so gaining access to the cockpit will presumably be quite difficult.
What with the black box having already been discovered, and the French seemingly doing a very good investigation (with regards to media involvement, securing the scene and so on, as well as previous (unfortunate) experience) hopefully there will be some answers soon.
If this is right it means that the terrorists have claimed another 150 lives, albiet indirectly, because in the old days the cabin door would never have been locked. B*******
If this is right it means that the terrorists have claimed another 150 lives, albiet indirectly, because in the old days the cabin door would never have been locked. B*******
Funnily enough a few weeks ago I was watching a TV show where occupants of a plane are trying to open the door of the cockpit from the outside because the pilot was incapacitated, one of the characters comments that after 9/11 it is pretty much impossible to do so due to new regulations. I'm not sure what failsafes are in place in the event of such a thing (e.g. if a co-pilot needs to leave, they make sure a stewardess takes their place) but if this is the case this needs some serious review since the likelihood of a pilot either being incapacitated or going crazy and locking themselves in is, I imagine, far more likely than a terrorist attempting to hijack a plane.
A pilot should be able to get in, using a code/card whatever. Not just relying on someone to open the door...
Is this a fact or your own opinion? My understanding was that there should be no way of opening the door from the outside, because that could lead to a situation where terrorists could torture a member of the flight crew in order to gain access. Not saying I'm right though.
A pilot should be able to get in, using a code/card whatever. Not just relying on someone to open the door...
Is this a fact or your own opinion? My understanding was that there should be no way of opening the door from the outside, because that could lead to a situation where terrorists could torture a member of the flight crew in order to gain access. Not saying I'm right though.
They could do exactly the same thing and kill passengers to force the pilots to open it from the inside.
As you said earlier, its because of that sort of vermin that these measures have had to be put in place, which is such a sad situation.
This is starting to sound like a real horror story. Awful.
A pilot should be able to get in, using a code/card whatever. Not just relying on someone to open the door.
If this is part of the cause then it is heartbreakingly ridiculous and I'm surprised more disasters have not occurred.
Code would be difficult as a terrorist could secretly zoom in on their phone camera and watch what the code is.
Using a card would be even riskier, the pilots have to walk through the duty-free sections, a terrorist would only need to pick-pocket the pilot (or even kidnap and tie them up in a toilet etc...) to gain access to the card
If there is only one pilot in the cockpit and he becomes incapacitated, there is a process by which the other pilot can get back into the cockpit. Certainly on all Airbus and Boeings.
However, if the pilot in the cockpit wants to prevent anyone else getting in then they can.
A pilot should be able to get in, using a code/card whatever. Not just relying on someone to open the door.
If this is part of the cause then it is heartbreakingly ridiculous and I'm surprised more disasters have not occurred.
Using a card would be even riskier, the pilots have to walk through the duty-free sections, a terrorist would only need to pick-pocket the pilot (or even kidnap and tie them up in a toilet etc...) to gain access to the card
Yeah no-one would notice the pilot was nt on the plane for take off either
A pilot should be able to get in, using a code/card whatever. Not just relying on someone to open the door.
If this is part of the cause then it is heartbreakingly ridiculous and I'm surprised more disasters have not occurred.
Using a card would be even riskier, the pilots have to walk through the duty-free sections, a terrorist would only need to pick-pocket the pilot (or even kidnap and tie them up in a toilet etc...) to gain access to the card
Yeah no-one would notice the pilot was nt on the plane for take off either
Depends if they take their uniform and try to get on the plane in their place etc...
There's going to be a plane so advanced that the crew will consist of a human and a dog. The dog's job is to stop the pilot from touching the controls by attacking him if he attempts to take control. The pilot's job is to feed the dog.
Watching a press conference with the lead investigator on Sky News right now. Says that there are strong signs that co-pilot crashed the plane deliberately. No strange breathing patterns as the plane descended and didn't speak a word in final moments.
Those on board only realised in the last few seconds as their screams are only audible just before the plane hits the mountain.
Very disturbing. one pilot locked the other out of the cockpit and intentionally sent the plane into false descent by pressing a button according to a Marseille prosecutor.
Comments
Reading the various reports with my amateur eye, my strong suspicion is that it was a depressurisation situation - certainly hope so in that if it was, everyone would just have suffered hypoxia and lost consciousness without knowing what was about to happen.
I say this because by all accounts the descent took about 8 minutes, which is more than enough time for the pilots to issue a distress call. The fact that neither appears to have done so suggests that they both must have been incapacitated, which could only really be explained by a hi-jack or somesuch cockpit incursion or deliberate act, or the depressurisation theory. And with all the alarms that would been going off, the lack of intervention by conscious pilots is inexplicable unless it was deliberately flown into the mountain. And though hi-jack is a possibility, it is probably highly unlikely on a flight between Germany and Spain - especially with locked cockpits these days.
Moreover, given that the plane was 24 years old and near the end of its shelf life, having been used for thousands of short flights where it repeatedly has to contract and expand to pressurise and straining the airframe each time, it means that a pressurisation failure is not an altogether fanciful theory. All it would have taken would have been for one of the pilots to lose consciousness, nudge the yoke (steering column thingy) - which would automatically cause the auto-pilot to shut off - and the plane would have had nothing to keep it in the air and so would have just headed to the ground. Not an expert theory on my part by any stretch - entirely based on my having watched every single episode of Air Crash Investigation.
Not much consolation for those that have lost loved ones, but if I were in that terrible situation I would be trying to convince myself this is what happened with all my might - just to try and put one foot in front of the other and get through these upcoming days and months.
Strangely the youngest planes now tend to be flown by the low cost airlines (excepting Eurowings who seem to have inherited the planes cast off by Lufthansa), who work the planes hard but replace them every 3-5 years before the heavy and expensive maintenance checks kick in.
It seems now that the descent took up to 18 mins which must imply it wasnt a massive structural problem but something like pilot incapacitation or navigation problems. As these planes are largely computer controled they wont allow the plane to fly outside a carefully defined flight envelope and doesnt allow the pilot to make imputs that would endanger the plane so its very strange what could have caused this.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3012053/Pilot-doomed-Germanwings-jet-locked-cockpit-crash.html
I'm not sure of the security measures affecting EU flights (if all airlines implement all measures on all routes regardless of whether the route involves the US) but I seem to recall that the post 9/11 security measures involved cockpit security, so gaining access to the cockpit will presumably be quite difficult.
What with the black box having already been discovered, and the French seemingly doing a very good investigation (with regards to media involvement, securing the scene and so on, as well as previous (unfortunate) experience) hopefully there will be some answers soon.
If this is part of the cause then it is heartbreakingly ridiculous and I'm surprised more disasters have not occurred.
Don't they have 3 pilots on long haul ?
As you said earlier, its because of that sort of vermin that these measures have had to be put in place, which is such a sad situation.
This is starting to sound like a real horror story. Awful.
Using a card would be even riskier, the pilots have to walk through the duty-free sections, a terrorist would only need to pick-pocket the pilot (or even kidnap and tie them up in a toilet etc...) to gain access to the card
However, if the pilot in the cockpit wants to prevent anyone else getting in then they can.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2935209/Moment-Delta-Air-Lines-pilot-told-passengers-d-locked-cockpit-officer-going-make-emergency-landing.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/just-how-common-are-pilot-suicides/
Those on board only realised in the last few seconds as their screams are only audible just before the plane hits the mountain.