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RBS to be sold

Can't necessarily understand the timing of this given the losses that it's going to involve. Bailed out for £45.5 Billion and selling at a time when its worth is closer to £32 Billion.

Seems like a chance for investors to get on and make a killing just like the Royal Mail fiasco. Shares for the boys ? Or a good deal for the public ?
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Comments

  • edited June 2015
    My uninformed view:

    Not a 'good deal' but the best deal and option available. The 'bad deal' was the price paid rather than the one selling at. Would be far too long a wait to get back to 500p a share and unless we really hit deflation our returns are diminishing anyway in real terms. Banks have generally paid pretty hefty fines along the way to the government for bail outs etc so overall the tax payer should be in a reasonable position.

    Why as a tax payer would we want to continue to expose ourselves so much to the banking sector anyway, the next recession can't be more than a few years away now.

    IMO, totally different to The Post Office which was a float without a market decided share price so always going to be tricky to predict and with the Government desperate to ensure a successful float it was always going to be pitched low.
  • Shall we move this to the General Election thread and be done ?
  • Riviera said:

    Although we've been told for the past few years that we as taxpayers own RBS and Lloyds; I must say that as a taxpayer I do not recall ever receiving any type of benefit of this ownership. Similarly I doubt the decision and to sell off RBS now will cost me anything either. This ridiculous way of reporting about the gains and losses of "the taxpayer" is totally misleading.

    The 'benefit' was the avoidance of the financial catastrophe which would have resulted from a failure of RBS and/or Lloyds.
  • It was bought with monopoly money, a k a quantative easing and is being sold for monopoly money .. that's all the exercise was, a game of monopoly for politicians and bankers
  • It was bought with monopoly money, a k a quantative easing and is being sold for monopoly money .. that's all the exercise was, a game of monopoly for politicians and bankers

    And the end result is we are not greece.
  • Should of let them gone under and sold all the assets, just like any other business. That would have saved us the expense of the bail out and the cost of the sell off.
    But I suppose the banks are one of the "lame duck" industries we must continue to support.
  • Will joe public be able to buy them or will they get swallowed by the city
  • Should of let them gone under and sold all the assets, just like any other business. That would have saved us the expense of the bail out and the cost of the sell off.
    But I suppose the banks are one of the "lame duck" industries we must continue to support.

    Isn't selling the shares and the new banking regulation a sign that as a country we are not 'continuing to support'. There were errors on all sides previously but hopefully the controls now being put in place will mean that if a bank gets into similar difficulties in future they can be allowed to fail without the catastrophic consequences that would have occurred in 2008.
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  • Should of let them gone under and sold all the assets, just like any other business. That would have saved us the expense of the bail out and the cost of the sell off.
    But I suppose the banks are one of the "lame duck" industries we must continue to support.

    And just like any other business the people who were owed money would be the only ones to suffer.

    The idea that the Banks were bailed out for any reason other than to save ordinary people from losing their pensions and savings, and hundreds of UK businesses going bankrupt, is puerile tosh.

    What was wrong was allowing the situation to develop, not saving us from their crass misdeeds.

    I hope the aims expressed by the governor of the B of E come to pass, making it clear that banks would be regulated to ensure they would never have such a stranglehold again, so none would be too big to fail. So yes in future failing banks ought to be able to fail and go to the wall and the State compensation scheme would be able to protect the public against losses. That was not the case had so many of our banks been allowed to fail when the crunch came last time.

    By the way, the "expense" of the bail out and "cost" of the sell off, is actually a profit since as well as the sale of the shares, many assets acquired as security for failed loans and other commercial assets, have been sold in the meantime and fees have been paid to the Government.

    You can argue whether the profit is £10bn or £30bn, but the State has made a profit on the deal which is why it makes sense to get out now and not take any risk with taxpayer money in the share market.
  • The cynic in me makes me think that the people that will be looking to buy these shares are the self same group of people that caused the mess in the first place using the vast bonus money they are still getting.

    fine line betwixt cynicism and realism .. most so called cynicism is in fact realism .. your comment is definitely more realistic than cynical .. similar to the (especially) U S housing crash .. those who caused it are now buying up the repossessed dwellings for a comparative song .. insider trading/dealing is just the tip of a very large and slippery iceberg .. still, in the jungle (excuse the mixed metaphors), the survivors win and to hell with any morals or 'rules' for the rabble

    Steady Lincs - I am in danger of agreeing with you on something "political"... :smiley:
  • Share ownership makes for interesting reading and may not show what people expect. (I'd expected the asset management/pension fund percentages to be much higher but on reflection I guess a lot of their money is in corporate bonds and the like rather than shares these days.) This from the ONS:

    The Ownership of UK Quoted Shares Bulletin provides estimates of ordinary shares holdings in quoted companies in the UK by sector of beneficial ownership (the beneficial owner is the underlying owner, the person or body who receives the benefits of holding the shares, for example income through dividends).

    At the end of 2012, the UK stock market was valued at £1,756.3 billion.

    Rest of the world investors continue to hold significantly more shares (in terms of value) than any other sector, with the gap between rest of the world ownership and the next highest (individuals) widening in 2012. Rest of the world ownership stood at an estimated 53.2% of the value of the UK stock market at the end of 2012, up from 30.7% in 1998 and 43.4% in 2010.

    UK individuals owned an estimated 10.7% by value at the end of 2012, picking up slightly from the record low in 2010 and halting the downward trend seen in recent years.

    Unit trusts held an estimated 9.6% by value at the end of 2012, continuing the strong growth seen in recent years
    Other financial institutions held an estimated 6.6% by value at the end of 2012, significantly down on the levels in 2010, following strong growth in earlier years.

    Insurance companies held an estimated 6.2% by value at the end of 2012, continuing the fall seen in recent years.
    Pension funds held an estimated 4.7% by value at the end of 2012, down from 5.6% in 2010, and significantly lower than the levels seen in recent years.

    Shares are increasingly held in multiple-ownership pooled accounts, where the beneficial owner is unknown (My comment: to the statistics harvesters - not the mangers of the pooled accounts of course!). These accounted for an estimated 59.4% of the total holdings by value at the end of 2012, up from 44.9% at the end of 2010.

    So, in short a majority of UK shares are owned by non-UK entities/individuals and the majority of those are held in nominee accounts.

    I haven't posted up the detailed data but note that Insurance Companies and Banks hold a far higher percentage of their assets in shares in manufacturing companies than do individuals, which I guess is good thing in the main.

    Anyway, it seems doubtful that those that partially caused the mess will be the same people that benefit from buying the shares. I expect that will be the Chinese and Middle East investment companies.

    Now, what happens with derivatives, I suspect, is a different matter altogether.
  • Have they announced any of the terms of sale ?

    I would like to see a large chunk sold to private investors at maximum tranches of say £2000.00 to stop the institutions hoovering them all up.
  • Wonder if it'll be like the Royal Mail where Osbourne sells well below the market value to his buddies in the City.

    The share price afterwards will be a good indication, have a feeling it'll shoot back up a few billion. It's alright though because we aren't going through a massive cuts regime and need every penny we can raise...
  • Fiiish said:

    Should of let them gone under and sold all the assets, just like any other business. That would have saved us the expense of the bail out and the cost of the sell off.
    But I suppose the banks are one of the "lame duck" industries we must continue to support.

    Yes, I'm sure the millions of people and businesses who held money at RBS as well as all the services and companies reliant on RBS technology and infrastructure would have been no burden for the taxpayer whatsoever once they had lost all their money or their ability to continue operation.

    I'm sure you're right, you normally are.
  • Fiiish said:

    Should of let them gone under and sold all the assets, just like any other business. That would have saved us the expense of the bail out and the cost of the sell off.
    But I suppose the banks are one of the "lame duck" industries we must continue to support.

    Yes, I'm sure the millions of people and businesses who held money at RBS as well as all the services and companies reliant on RBS technology and infrastructure would have been no burden for the taxpayer whatsoever once they had lost all their money or their ability to continue operation.

    I'm sure you're right, you normally are.
    He is absolutely right.

  • Will joe public be able to buy them or will they get swallowed by the city

    Joe Public has always been able to buy shares in RBS - currently trading at £3.61, down from a peak of £60 pre-crisis.

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  • edited June 2015
    It might be worth less today than what was paid for it but it needed saving and that loss was almost certainly locked in after the first year or two.
    In government and budget deficit terms this is a huge asset which doesn't appear. But once it's sold then the cash will be used to offset government borrowing and the deficit for that year allowing Osborne to be triumphant!

    I don't understand why the Greeks are actively objecting to doing something similar to get out of jail but left wing governments like to hoard assets even when in trouble.

    I've said for a while now that privatisation raises cash and takes politicians hands off of operational control of banks and railways etc. I hope they continue to sell things to reduce the deficit and ideally raise the tax take as and when entities make profits.
  • edited June 2015
    Worked for those rotten bastards for 12 months after they bought ABN Amro.

    Unmitigated, conceited and unscrupulous idiots the lot of em.

    Fuck it, sod the money just napalm 250 and 99 Bishopsgate and target a cruise missile into the foyer at Wankside, that'll do me!
  • 15per cent of royal mail sold today for £5 a share, £750m.Government only own 15per cent now soon to be sold.Wonder if there will still be deliveries six days a week?.
  • Worked for those rotten bastards for 12 months after they bought ABN Amro.

    Unmitigated, conceited and unscrupulous idiots the lot of em.

    Fuck it, sod the money just napalm 250 and 99 Bishopsgate and target a cruise missile into the foyer at Wankside, that'll do me!

    Pah,

    Just leave 280 and 135 alone !!!

    All I'm saying is that I worked NatWest/RBS for over 18 years and left company in healthy state in Jan 2007.

    They then bought ABN and the problems started !!!!


  • Riviera said:

    Although we've been told for the past few years that we as taxpayers own RBS and Lloyds; I must say that as a taxpayer I do not recall ever receiving any type of benefit of this ownership. Similarly I doubt the decision and to sell off RBS now will cost me anything either. This ridiculous way of reporting about the gains and losses of "the taxpayer" is totally misleading.

    not only misleading but we are selling something we never benefitted from cheap to more bankers to make them richer.

    mugged off.

    but never mind, theres a derivatives crash on the way so the funds will only go back to more banks soon enough
  • In 2013: Grant Shapps
    The Conservative Party chairman, compared the bank bail-out to Labour’s decision to sell the country’s gold reserves. “Labour sold gold at a record low price and now it seems they massively overpaid for the taxpayer stakes in the banks,” he said.

    “Taxpayers will be paying the price for Labour’s mistakes for many years to come — they must never again be let anywhere near our economy.”


    In 2015: George Osbourne
    George Osborne said the Government will start to sell some of its 80pc stake in RBS to institutional investors in the coming months, as part of a rehabilitation of the rescued lenders that will produce an overall profit of £14bn for the taxpayer, according to new figures.

    Muppets!
  • edited June 2015
    Grant Shapps is an example of everything scummy in politics. As slippery as an eel.
  • Save for exercised options from my employer I don't own shares, never have so I have a very limited understanding if these things. However I am not sure how this is like The Post Office at all. The PO was being floated so there was always going to be an element of guess work involved in setting a price, and I suspect, the risk of a failed float by the Government forced a relatively 'soft price'. RBS on the other hand is floated so there is a price set by the market. Therefore the government selling to its mates at below market prices seems unlikely/illegal, why do other posters think this will happen? I am sure the price will rally after the sale so people can still moan but that will surely be down to the fact that if you flood the market with a large sale (anything, not just shares), that will always be the case.

    As for not benefitting from the buy/sale of RBS I would be interested to know the likely loss to the taxpayer had they been allowed to go bust (lost deposits/deposit protection scheme, bust companies leading to redundancies etc etc) so that I could compare with the loss made on sale of the shares. Could someone give me that comparison?
  • Save for exercised options from my employer I don't own shares, never have so I have a very limited understanding if these things. However I am not sure how this is like The Post Office at all. The PO was being floated so there was always going to be an element of guess work involved in setting a price, and I suspect, the risk of a failed float by the Government forced a relatively 'soft price'. RBS on the other hand is floated so there is a price set by the market. Therefore the government selling to its mates at below market prices seems unlikely/illegal, why do other posters think this will happen? I am sure the price will rally after the sale so people can still moan but that will surely be down to the fact that if you flood the market with a large sale (anything, not just shares), that will always be the case.

    As for not benefitting from the buy/sale of RBS I would be interested to know the likely loss to the taxpayer had they been allowed to go bust (lost deposits/deposit protection scheme, bust companies leading to redundancies etc etc) so that I could compare with the loss made on sale of the shares. Could someone give me that comparison?

    plus a possible knock on effect on the other banks in the country, potentially leading them to collapse and then the capitulation of the country's economy thus leading to mass unemployment, starvation etc.
  • At the time of its collapse, the RBS balance sheet alone was as large as the entire GDP of the country - hard to avoid the conclusion failure to save if might have been quite bad!

    By comparison, Lehman Brothers' balance sheet was just 5% of US GDP.
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