This all goes a bit further than not being able to throw bananas at black footballers. The problem is that you cant even put up a sensible argument against immagration - built around jobs, wages, housing and natural resources etc - without being labelled a racist.
The Government promised us a "mature debate" on the issue. What happened to that? I agree that political correctness is the lefts way of avoiding sensible debate on this issue.
1905 has given a good example of how political correctness can curb free speech.
I'll provide another. Those of us who feel that membership of the European Union is not in the best interests of this country are labelled xenophobic by EU apologists. Being anti EU, a corrupt essentially undemocratic organisation, does not make one anti European a vital distinction that is all too often ignored.
In a sense you prove my point BFR with your pointed comment:...." Maybe you are complaining that you just can't get away with those casual but nasty little racist stereotypes and slurs that used to be so commonplace? The real issue with "political correctness",....." I made it quite clear in my post that there are SOME positive aspects to political correctness, citing insults to black people as an example, yet you still resort to the standard socialist mantra of personal attack on opponents. If I have misread your intent then I apologise but that is how it comes across to me.
"The problem is that you cant even put up a sensible argument against immagration - built around jobs, wages, housing and natural resources etc - without being labelled a racist."
Immigrants are good for the nation, they contribute around ten percent of our GDP and cost about 9 per cent of it. Furthermore they have a tendancy to fill a lot of vital jobs - teaching, doctors/nurses etc. Without immigrants the NHS and education services would literally grind to a halt. Immigrants also tend to be young, mobile and are happy to do un/semi-skilled work that many Brits don't want to do. The argument isn't black and white. That said it immigration needs to be controlled as does any change in society. The figures are out there if you look hard enough. As for house building, there are societal trends away from smaller numbers of families with large numbers to single people and lower birth rates, that has nothing to do with immigration. Immigrants not only contribute more but, are also propping up the pension system for an ageing population - life expectancy is now much higher than at any other time in our history to the point where paying a pension for 5-10 years post retirement is no longer the norm. By the time that I reach retirement age many people will be living 15-20 years post retirement. That puts a strain on healthcare resources as well as pensions. Immigrants help to offset this.
"I agree that political correctness is the lefts way of avoiding sensible debate on this issue."
The charge that it's "political correctness" is just a tired and stale cliche for those who can't and won't think for themselves.
BFR - Would you consider the comparison of a Jewish person to a German concentration camp guard as being politically correct / a racial slur?
The point is, though, that Livingstone's remark was made to a Jewish newspaper reporter who works for a newspaper group with a history of anti-semitism - in effect, calling him a hypocrite. It may well have been unwise, but it isn't a racial slur.
"1905 has given a good example of how political correctness can curb free speech"
No he hasn't, I'm sure he can do better though.
"Those of us who feel that membership of the European Union is not in the best interests of this country are labelled xenophobic by EU apologists."
Are you? Where? By whom? Are you sure that you aren't just imagining this again? In all these debates I see a lot of straw men defences being raised - that is you invent something that you think the other person is saying and then complain about it. Eg here you raise ant-EU paranoia...and then make a statement:
"a corrupt essentially undemocratic organisation, does not make one anti European a vital distinction that is all too often ignored."
...to back up something that simply hasn't been said. Sure there are corrupt and inefficient practices (you don't mention the inefficient practices but I consider it more important than corruptness) but the global market is changing, money flows now into parts of the world that previously it ignored, if we in Europe don't start banding together for our common good and start making it easier to do business across national boundaries in our back yard then we are never going to be in a position to compete on the global market. Or do you think that Britain is suddenly going to be a global player again? If so how? The juvenile ramblings I'm seeing on this thread are straight out of the Daily Mail handbook of how things should be, not how they are.
As for corruption...sadly that is a fact of life, you need to take the mote out of your eye before criticising others. All governments have to a greater or lesser extent have been corrupt, if say the Thatcher, Major and Blair governments have been paragons of virtue and transparency then you might have a case, but they haven't been.
"I made it quite clear in my post that there are SOME positive aspects to political correctness, citing insults to black people as an example, yet you still resort to the standard socialist mantra of personal attack on opponents."
Even you admitted to "rambling" in the original post so I was trying to pick a coherent train of thought, yet while you decry me for (cliche) "standard socialist mantra etc" you resort to that level yourself. Curiously you totally ignored the point that I made that "political correct" speech/behaviour is a necessary thing, and I re-iterate because there are racist morons out there in favour of putting words in my mouth. Practise what you preach....
'Immigrants are good for the nation, they contribute around ten percent of our GDP and cost about 9 per cent of it'
yes of course they are, keep taking the tablets son.
Lies, damn lies and statistics I believe."
Let's put some facts in the way of your prejudices shall we?
But, first what are you doing supporting a football team that regularly fields a number of non-UK born players, AKA immigrants? Let's ship Pouso, Reid, Diawarra, JFH, Traore, HH etc off home shall we...or are these "good" immigrants, or maybe you just hold your nose when they play for Charlton....
That aside it's a fact, not a lie, that immigrants contribute to the GDP of the nation.
"The Home Office’s own figures show this clearly. The 447,000 immigrants who have come to the UK from the new EU accession states included: -95,868 factory workers -15,840 waiters and waitresses -24,000 kitchen and catering assistants -6,500 bus, lorry and coach drivers -12,700 care workers -1,500 teachers, researchers and classroom assistants -600 dental practitioners -2,000 GPs, nurses and medical specialists.
...most are young - 82% are aged between 18 and 34. More significantly, the overwhelming majority are making almost no demand on the welfare state in the UK.
-93% had no dependants in the UK -97% are working full-time
Of 5,943 initial applications for income support and job seekers allowance, only 768 were allowed to carry on with their applications -Just 110 have been given council houses -27,280 have claimed child benefit
Even more importantly, many of these economic migrants are not long-stay settlers: figures appear to suggest that of the 600,000 total quoted at the beginning of this article, only 300,000 remain in the UK at any one time. The rest return home either permanently or for extended periods."
So, in conclusion the case for immigration being beneficial to the working of the UK is made.
Reality is so much less scary than the Daily Mail and the BNP would have you believe, remember kiddies always do your own research and above all learn to think for yourself...
no-one would argue about the east european immigration being a good thing in the short term, with so many vacancies in these professions. But it does not mean immigration as a whole, but is a carefully selected sub-set of figures that do not reflect the bigger picture.
It is a bad thing of course if you are in a profession whose salaries have been driven down by an influx of cheaper labour.
"Those of us who feel that membership of the European Union is not in the best interests of this country are labelled xenophobic by EU apologists."
Are you? Where? By whom? Are you sure that you aren't just imagining this again? In all these debates I see a lot of straw men defences....."
David Cameron no less is a recent example when he attacked UKIP and suggested that it's members were closet racists. Michael Howard has referred to UKIP as a collection of cranks and gadflies. Blair has also said similar in the past as has your man Livingstone when foced into a corner by Nigel Farage on Any Questions on Radio 4.
What word other than corrupt would you use to describe an organisation (the EU) where the auditors have refused to sign the accounts for 11 years? I never suggested British governments were perfect, you brought them up, but at least they can be voted out every 5 years. The driving force of the EU, the European Commission, is unelected and untouchable. A big, big, difference.
The reason I stated I was rambling was because I had digressed from the original topic under discussion of Livingstone's anti semitism to political correctness in general. Not because, as you imply, I could not think coherently about the subject. Another example of personal insults I fear.
I'm sure 1905 is more than capable of justifying his own position but immigration is an important issue and as you acknowledge yourself there is a need for controls. Membership of the EU severely restricts the powers of the elected British Government to act in this area. That is fact not Daily Mail, xenophobic rant or whatever other belittling phrase you choose.
Comments
The Government promised us a "mature debate" on the issue. What happened to that? I agree that political correctness is the lefts way of avoiding sensible debate on this issue.
I'll provide another. Those of us who feel that membership of the European Union is not in the best interests of this country are labelled xenophobic by EU apologists. Being anti EU, a corrupt essentially undemocratic organisation, does not make one anti European a vital distinction that is all too often ignored.
In a sense you prove my point BFR with your pointed comment:...." Maybe you are complaining that you just can't get away with those casual but nasty little racist stereotypes and slurs that used to be so commonplace? The real issue with "political correctness",....." I made it quite clear in my post that there are SOME positive aspects to political correctness, citing insults to black people as an example, yet you still resort to the standard socialist mantra of personal attack on opponents. If I have misread your intent then I apologise but that is how it comes across to me.
Immigrants are good for the nation, they contribute around ten percent of our GDP and cost about 9 per cent of it. Furthermore they have a tendancy to fill a lot of vital jobs - teaching, doctors/nurses etc. Without immigrants the NHS and education services would literally grind to a halt. Immigrants also tend to be young, mobile and are happy to do un/semi-skilled work that many Brits don't want to do. The argument isn't black and white. That said it immigration needs to be controlled as does any change in society. The figures are out there if you look hard enough. As for house building, there are societal trends away from smaller numbers of families with large numbers to single people and lower birth rates, that has nothing to do with immigration. Immigrants not only contribute more but, are also propping up the pension system for an ageing population - life expectancy is now much higher than at any other time in our history to the point where paying a pension for 5-10 years post retirement is no longer the norm. By the time that I reach retirement age many people will be living 15-20 years post retirement. That puts a strain on healthcare resources as well as pensions. Immigrants help to offset this.
"I agree that political correctness is the lefts way of avoiding sensible debate on this issue."
The charge that it's "political correctness" is just a tired and stale cliche for those who can't and won't think for themselves.
The point is, though, that Livingstone's remark was made to a Jewish newspaper reporter who works for a newspaper group with a history of anti-semitism - in effect, calling him a hypocrite. It may well have been unwise, but it isn't a racial slur.
No he hasn't, I'm sure he can do better though.
"Those of us who feel that membership of the European Union is not in the best interests of this country are labelled xenophobic by EU apologists."
Are you? Where? By whom? Are you sure that you aren't just imagining this again? In all these debates I see a lot of straw men defences being raised - that is you invent something that you think the other person is saying and then complain about it. Eg here you raise ant-EU paranoia...and then make a statement:
"a corrupt essentially undemocratic organisation, does not make one anti European a vital distinction that is all too often ignored."
...to back up something that simply hasn't been said. Sure there are corrupt and inefficient practices (you don't mention the inefficient practices but I consider it more important than corruptness) but the global market is changing, money flows now into parts of the world that previously it ignored, if we in Europe don't start banding together for our common good and start making it easier to do business across national boundaries in our back yard then we are never going to be in a position to compete on the global market. Or do you think that Britain is suddenly going to be a global player again? If so how? The juvenile ramblings I'm seeing on this thread are straight out of the Daily Mail handbook of how things should be, not how they are.
As for corruption...sadly that is a fact of life, you need to take the mote out of your eye before criticising others. All governments have to a greater or lesser extent have been corrupt, if say the Thatcher, Major and Blair governments have been paragons of virtue and transparency then you might have a case, but they haven't been.
"I made it quite clear in my post that there are SOME positive aspects to political correctness, citing insults to black people as an example, yet you still resort to the standard socialist mantra of personal attack on opponents."
Even you admitted to "rambling" in the original post so I was trying to pick a coherent train of thought, yet while you decry me for (cliche) "standard socialist mantra etc" you resort to that level yourself. Curiously you totally ignored the point that I made that "political correct" speech/behaviour is a necessary thing, and I re-iterate because there are racist morons out there in favour of putting words in my mouth. Practise what you preach....
yes of course they are, keep taking the tablets son.
Lies, damn lies and statistics I believe.
yes of course they are, keep taking the tablets son.
Lies, damn lies and statistics I believe."
Let's put some facts in the way of your prejudices shall we?
But, first what are you doing supporting a football team that regularly fields a number of non-UK born players, AKA immigrants? Let's ship Pouso, Reid, Diawarra, JFH, Traore, HH etc off home shall we...or are these "good" immigrants, or maybe you just hold your nose when they play for Charlton....
That aside it's a fact, not a lie, that immigrants contribute to the GDP of the nation.
http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?ID=84&type=release
http://money.uk.msn.com/MyMoney/Insight/Money_Spinner/article.aspx?cp-documentid=852679&wa=wsignin1.0
"The Home Office’s own figures show this clearly. The 447,000 immigrants who have come to the UK from the new EU accession states included:
-95,868 factory workers
-15,840 waiters and waitresses
-24,000 kitchen and catering assistants
-6,500 bus, lorry and coach drivers
-12,700 care workers
-1,500 teachers, researchers and classroom assistants
-600 dental practitioners
-2,000 GPs, nurses and medical specialists.
...most are young - 82% are aged between 18 and 34. More significantly, the overwhelming majority are making almost no demand on the welfare state in the UK.
-93% had no dependants in the UK
-97% are working full-time
Of 5,943 initial applications for income support and job seekers allowance, only 768 were allowed to carry on with their applications
-Just 110 have been given council houses
-27,280 have claimed child benefit
Even more importantly, many of these economic migrants are not long-stay settlers: figures appear to suggest that of the 600,000 total quoted at the beginning of this article, only 300,000 remain in the UK at any one time. The rest return home either permanently or for extended periods."
So, in conclusion the case for immigration being beneficial to the working of the UK is made.
Reality is so much less scary than the Daily Mail and the BNP would have you believe, remember kiddies always do your own research and above all learn to think for yourself...
Everyone has had their say, nothing new is going to be learned, and no one is suddenly going to see the light.
Leave it and move on.
no-one would argue about the east european immigration being a good thing in the short term, with so many vacancies in these professions. But it does not mean immigration as a whole, but is a carefully selected sub-set of figures that do not reflect the bigger picture.
It is a bad thing of course if you are in a profession whose salaries have been driven down by an influx of cheaper labour.
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/564/scumbags.htm
"Those of us who feel that membership of the European Union is not in the best interests of this country are labelled xenophobic by EU apologists."
Are you? Where? By whom? Are you sure that you aren't just imagining this again? In all these debates I see a lot of straw men defences....."
David Cameron no less is a recent example when he attacked UKIP and suggested that it's members were closet racists. Michael Howard has referred to UKIP as a collection of cranks and gadflies. Blair has also said similar in the past as has your man Livingstone when foced into a corner by Nigel Farage on Any Questions on Radio 4.
What word other than corrupt would you use to describe an organisation (the EU) where the auditors have refused to sign the accounts for 11 years? I never suggested British governments were perfect, you brought them up, but at least they can be voted out every 5 years. The driving force of the EU, the European Commission, is unelected and untouchable. A big, big, difference.
The reason I stated I was rambling was because I had digressed from the original topic under discussion of Livingstone's anti semitism to political correctness in general. Not because, as you imply, I could not think coherently about the subject. Another example of personal insults I fear.
I'm sure 1905 is more than capable of justifying his own position but immigration is an important issue and as you acknowledge yourself there is a need for controls. Membership of the EU severely restricts the powers of the elected British Government to act in this area. That is fact not Daily Mail, xenophobic rant or whatever other belittling phrase you choose.
Apologies for my contribution to this. Sometimes it is hard not to bite back.
Err so what?