@nth london addick . I've got an email in my possession which proves that PV basically used the Pen as a hook for potential buyers, as Airman says, but is quite explicit that such a stadium move would not be necessary in his opinion (for commercial success).
I 'm also not sure it's as black and white as being painted re Murray and Sainsbury, but I would have to dig around a bit to see if I can back that up. There was certainly somebody using CL quite effectively to wind us up about the danger of Sainsbury's bid, and I assumed it was another director, which tends to support your view of that, I concede.
It should also be said that both RM and PV were floating a perfectly rational reason why a new stadium might be needed. That was, West Ham in the Olympic Stadium. They both saw, long before the UK bid was won, that the only legacy would be one that gave it to West Ham. In turn they saw that West Ham would flood our market to use up the excess spare seating the OS would give them. They saw this as a straight commercial threat (the State support aspect wasn't assumed at the time) and that we would need extra capacity in order to match them on price. At the time they were saying this (I am not sure I can pinpoint when) both assumed that our exit from the FAPL was an aberration we were going to fix. The point is that the argument for moving to the Pen had some merit in terms of keeping Charlton competitive - as a top league club.
I am sure that moving to the peninsula would’ve been totally commercial and that PV would’ve used it as the worm to catch the fish
But it’s my opinion that the reason they had all the info as to why it was such a good bait to use , is that had they really had the investment to do it themselves that we would’ve been playing there by now and I would have a real problem because of my deep set view that we will never need a stadium bigger than what we have and it could be developed to match our needs
Did Seb Sainsbury not go to jail soon after we jogged him on , and whoever was giving that info fair play to them
If RM is ever truly honest with you he will admit that he wanted to do a deal with that fraud
Would be more than interesting to hear what Murray has to say about all this.
Even after Jimenez/Slater/Cash/Whoever had sold, Murray very publicly offered up a strong defence of Jiminez at a Coty Addicks meeting at the Counting House shortly after Douche took charge
Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ? Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ? If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.
That Richard Murray wanted to sell to as his preferred choice
It was Murray and Varney more than anyone that wanted us to move to the peninsula it was close as anything before TJ and slater
I would’ve hated it but it was going to happen and it still will imo
A main reason Varney got involved in 2010 was because of his concern that Murray was willing to sell to Sainsbury, who he thought would try to develop The Valley for housing.
That's all very gallant if true, but let's not forget there was some handsome form of middle man fee / commission on offer (indeed, wasn't this what Murray / Varney fell out over) ?
Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ? Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ? If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.
That Richard Murray wanted to sell to as his preferred choice
It was Murray and Varney more than anyone that wanted us to move to the peninsula it was close as anything before TJ and slater
I would’ve hated it but it was going to happen and it still will imo
A main reason Varney got involved in 2010 was because of his concern that Murray was willing to sell to Sainsbury, who he thought would try to develop The Valley for housing.
That's all very gallant if true, but let's not forget there was some handsome form of middle man few / commission on offer (indeed, wasn't this what Murray / Varney fell out over) ?
Still think the Kuwaiti mention in the piece had Varney all over it despite what others say.
Well she did say Varney wanted to move Charlton from The Valley which was hotly denied at the time and I was one of Varney's defenders on here and elsewhere.
Some of what has been written above undeniably does suggest that Varney would have countenanced a move.
Well she did say Varney wanted to move Charlton from The Valley which was hotly denied at the time and I was one of Varney's defenders on here and elsewhere.
Some of what has been written above undeniably does suggest that Varney would have countenanced a move.
Hence my question.
My reading of Peter Varney's stance - and specifically based on the email in my posession - is that he feels obliged to look at any issue from a commercial angle. That's correct, that's what a proper CEO should do. So he felt more or less obliged to be aware of the commercial opportunity offered by such a move. You also have to remember that this was current 9 years ago when there was still some illusion that we could get back to the Prem without losing too much more of a regular 20,000 gate. I think also Peter would then say OK, this is the commercial opportunity, but it only makes sense if we do not lose the goodwill and support of fans like @nth london addick (and me), and that we have a realistic chance of filling a 40,000 plus stadium (which never happened since I started supporting Charlton in 1963). Hence his clear and heavy caveat in the document I have in my possession.
My only caveat to my own remarks is that I've never met Peter in person and I must say that my jaw didn't so much drop as detach itself from my head when I read in VOTV that he had tried to interest Gullivan in buying us. However none of that should persuade you to offer Meire an apology, as I think PV will have realised several years ago that any commercial argument for moving us had fallen apart because of our demise, both in league position and in season ticket sales. IMO she just chucked that out there based on something she was casually told and she probably had no idea how far back this subject went. I am afraid that is an example of how she has consistently behaved since her incompetence in the role became public knowledge.
Len, I think this is out of context. Meire made her accusation of Varney with regard to the time when Varney approached the club for a prospective buyer well after the time of all this subject matter. Varney categorically rejected that the buyer had any intention of moving the club from the Valley.
Afka makes a great point there ref the money on offer in that deal
I hate to think Ill of varney as I once did of Murray but there are questions that need to be answered in order for there to be clarity
1. Pre TJ and Slater what was the real intent on the moves made to leave the valley (it matters not to many some world openly welcome the move infact the business reasons to move do genuinely stack up I just don’t agree with them or the point of moving )
2 how close Murray Came to selling to Sainsbury and why , I already know it was bloody close but I don’t understand why
3 how much was varneys influence on getting the deal done with tj and ms monetary and was it also done with the main motive of one day returning and capitalising on a future move from the valley
Afka makes a great point there ref the money on offer in that deal
I hate to think Ill of varney as I once did of Murray but there are questions that need to be answered in order for there to be clarity
1. Pre TJ and Slater what was the real intent on the moves made to leave the valley (it matters not to many some world openly welcome the move infact the business reasons to move do genuinely stack up I just don’t agree with them or the point of moving )
2 how close Murray Came to selling to Sainsbury and why , I already know it was bloody close but I don’t understand why
3 how much was varneys influence on getting the deal done with tj and ms monetary and was it also done with the main motive of one day returning and capitalising on a future move from the valley
The club was in desperate straits in 2010 and running out of money. Murray couldn’t keep it afloat and he was on his own because all the others had bailed out - that may well have been his fault, but that’s not the point here. Varney was not employed by the club. The people who were - Waggott until the summer and Kavanagh - were neither experienced nor equipped to deliver a takeover. Varney was not on the payroll.
He brokered the deal and was paid about £25k for his work. If they had employed someone like Keith Harris it would probably have cost ten times that or more. Nevertheless Murray has chosen to argue very retrospectively that Varney should have given his services for nothing - or at least that £25k was excessive. Meanwhile he sat on a board which evidently thought it was OK to pay Waggott, Kavanagh and Capelin about £500k a year total in League One. Waggott was a joke and Capelin invisible.
People do not act from single motives but having known Varney for 20 years, any suggestion his interest was primarily financial or about wishing to return and/or move the club is total and utter bollocks.
Would be more than interesting to hear what Murray has to say about all this.
Even after Jimenez/Slater/Cash/Whoever had sold, Murray very publicly offered up a strong defence of Jiminez at a Coty Addicks meeting at the Counting House shortly after Douche took charge
He’d made his bed in 2012 and participated in the spivs’ pursuit of Varney and Kavanagh, who had stood up to them. Having seen the latest court transcript, who do we think was in the right on that?
Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ? Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ? If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.
That Richard Murray wanted to sell to as his preferred choice
It was Murray and Varney more than anyone that wanted us to move to the peninsula it was close as anything before TJ and slater
I would’ve hated it but it was going to happen and it still will imo
A main reason Varney got involved in 2010 was because of his concern that Murray was willing to sell to Sainsbury, who he thought would try to develop The Valley for housing.
That's all very gallant if true, but let's not forget there was some handsome form of middle man fee / commission on offer (indeed, wasn't this what Murray / Varney fell out over) ?
I have no evidence for it, but it has been said that Duchatelet paid £1m to a middle man involved in the 2014 takeover. That’s the context, if true.
If anyone is interested in the court transcript of the judgement - it is here. If you have the desire to trawl through 69 pages - there is some fascinating stuff in there - especially the graphic of the CAFC 'ownership' at the time...
If anyone is interested in the court transcript of the judgement - it is here. If you have the desire to trawl through 69 pages - there is some fascinating stuff in there - especially the graphic of the CAFC 'ownership' at the time...
I’ve explained the ownership in VOTV141 - and I still don’t understand it.
What is now clear is that despite all the financial spider webs involved in the ownership. it was Cash and Jimenez who were the partners and Slater was Cash's representative at Charlton, a role he filled in other business ventures.
If anyone is interested in the court transcript of the judgement - it is here. If you have the desire to trawl through 69 pages - there is some fascinating stuff in there - especially the graphic of the CAFC 'ownership' at the time...
Not read it all but the first five or six pages are really interesting.
Comments
I 'm also not sure it's as black and white as being painted re Murray and Sainsbury, but I would have to dig around a bit to see if I can back that up. There was certainly somebody using CL quite effectively to wind us up about the danger of Sainsbury's bid, and I assumed it was another director, which tends to support your view of that, I concede.
It should also be said that both RM and PV were floating a perfectly rational reason why a new stadium might be needed. That was, West Ham in the Olympic Stadium. They both saw, long before the UK bid was won, that the only legacy would be one that gave it to West Ham. In turn they saw that West Ham would flood our market to use up the excess spare seating the OS would give them. They saw this as a straight commercial threat (the State support aspect wasn't assumed at the time) and that we would need extra capacity in order to match them on price. At the time they were saying this (I am not sure I can pinpoint when) both assumed that our exit from the FAPL was an aberration we were going to fix. The point is that the argument for moving to the Pen had some merit in terms of keeping Charlton competitive - as a top league club.
But it’s my opinion that the reason they had all the info as to why it was such a good bait to use , is that had they really had the investment to do it themselves that we would’ve been playing there by now and I would have a real problem because of my deep set view that we will never need a stadium bigger than what we have and it could be developed to match our needs
Did Seb Sainsbury not go to jail soon after we jogged him on , and whoever was giving that info fair play to them
If RM is ever truly honest with you he will admit that he wanted to do a deal with that fraud
It looks like Varney was prepared to take the Club from The Valley after all reading the above.
Some of what has been written above undeniably does suggest that Varney would have countenanced a move.
Hence my question.
My only caveat to my own remarks is that I've never met Peter in person and I must say that my jaw didn't so much drop as detach itself from my head when I read in VOTV that he had tried to interest Gullivan in buying us. However none of that should persuade you to offer Meire an apology, as I think PV will have realised several years ago that any commercial argument for moving us had fallen apart because of our demise, both in league position and in season ticket sales. IMO she just chucked that out there based on something she was casually told and she probably had no idea how far back this subject went. I am afraid that is an example of how she has consistently behaved since her incompetence in the role became public knowledge.
I hate to think Ill of varney as I once did of Murray but there are questions that need to be answered in order for there to be clarity
1. Pre TJ and Slater what was the real intent on the moves made to leave the valley (it matters not to many some world openly welcome the move infact the business reasons to move do genuinely stack up I just don’t agree with them or the point of moving )
2 how close Murray Came to selling to Sainsbury and why , I already know it was bloody close but I don’t understand why
3 how much was varneys influence on getting the deal done with tj and ms monetary and was it also done with the main motive of one day returning and capitalising on a future move from the valley
He brokered the deal and was paid about £25k for his work. If they had employed someone like Keith Harris it would probably have cost ten times that or more. Nevertheless Murray has chosen to argue very retrospectively that Varney should have given his services for nothing - or at least that £25k was excessive. Meanwhile he sat on a board which evidently thought it was OK to pay Waggott, Kavanagh and Capelin about £500k a year total in League One. Waggott was a joke and Capelin invisible.
People do not act from single motives but having known Varney for 20 years, any suggestion his interest was primarily financial or about wishing to return and/or move the club is total and utter bollocks.
But there’s a lot more to the truth behind the peninsula move and it’s not just to hook TJ and Slater
Right now it matters not in the grand scheme of things we have to worry about that deal is old hat and miles away
It will return as will we one day and when it does we will face it
If you have the desire to trawl through 69 pages - there is some fascinating stuff in there - especially the graphic of the CAFC 'ownership' at the time...
My favourite bit "Over a $14.99 dinner at the restaurant Curry in a Hurry, Khakshouri agreed to lend Jimenez the money to keep the club running". Knows how to swing a deal does Tony...