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The Panama Papers: Information wants to be free

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  • Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

  • Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

    It's been a long long time since I have filled one out, but I thought that the IR35 asked for all overseas investments and savings to be declared? So to not declare, wouldn't that be an offence because the form had been deliberately incorrectly filled out?
  • edited April 2016

    Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

    Was the Moon Landing faked? Is Bigfoot real? Are the Royal family lizard people? What else are these Tories hiding from us? Evil Eton Bullingdon bankers etc.
  • Fiiish said:

    Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

    Was the Moon Landing faked? Is Bigfoot real? Are the Royal family lizard people? What else are these Tories hiding from us? Evil Eton Bullingdon bankers etc.
    It's worse than that, German alien lizard people....
  • Fiiish said:

    Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

    Was the Moon Landing faked? Is Bigfoot real? Are the Royal family lizard people? What else are these Tories hiding from us? Evil Eton Bullingdon bankers etc.
    You know full well that there will be quite a lot the Tories are hiding from us.
  • Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

    Who knows? But, of course, if the money had been gifted more than 7 years before his death, or if it was held in trust and therefore not his money at all, then it would have had absolutely no relevance to the value of his estate for inheritance tax purposes.
    Why should inheritance tax be due at all? It's outrageous.
    Why do some people want as much of other people's possessions as possible?
    And then claim that rich people are greedy!
    I need some new trousers, I think I'll pop round to HG's and take a pair of his. Trousers should be available to all.
  • @Off_it sorry that I came across as patronising. Owen Gibson has produced this long article, but it possibly still doesn't answer your question. The Guardian is still collecting questions from readers, but from this article the main issue seems to be that UEFA initially denied doing deals with persons under investigation (and reading between the lines of tweets from journos, did so in an aggressive and dismissive manner). This denial is now seen to be unjustified. There is I guess the second open question about whether he should have been been more diligent before signing, and whether he should have gone back to signed contracts once it became clear who was under investigation around the world. Anyway, this is still running.
  • edited April 2016

    Fiiish said:

    Interesting government NHS incompetence report taking news away from Cameron.
    Inheritance tax should be paid on all global assets. Did DC hide his father's hidden offshore investments from probate lawyers?

    Was the Moon Landing faked? Is Bigfoot real? Are the Royal family lizard people? What else are these Tories hiding from us? Evil Eton Bullingdon bankers etc.
    You know full well that there will be quite a lot the Tories are hiding from us.
    Such as DC forging his dad's will?

    This thread is becoming desperately tinfoil.
  • You have to pay inheritance tax on your global assets. I wonder if honest Dave pointed out the Panama fund to his father's Probate lawyers?
  • You have to pay inheritance tax on your global assets. I wonder if honest Dave pointed out the Panama fund to his father's Probate lawyers?

    Tony Benn, anyone?
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  • @Off_it sorry that I came across as patronising. Owen Gibson has produced this long article, but it possibly still doesn't answer your question. The Guardian is still collecting questions from readers, but from this article the main issue seems to be that UEFA initially denied doing deals with persons under investigation (and reading between the lines of tweets from journos, did so in an aggressive and dismissive manner). This denial is now seen to be unjustified. There is I guess the second open question about whether he should have been been more diligent before signing, and whether he should have gone back to signed contracts once it became clear who was under investigation around the world. Anyway, this is still running.

    It points, unsurprisingly, to incompetence or corruption at UEFA. If they sold the TV rights to tournaments to Company A for £x who immediately sold it onto Company B for £3x then the question is, why did UEFA not sell it to Company B in the first place, rather than accepting an offer that is clearly well below the market rate from Company A? It would be inappropriate to suggest that brown envelopes stuffed with cash may have been involved, so I wouldn't dream of doing that.
  • You have to pay inheritance tax on your global assets. I wonder if honest Dave pointed out the Panama fund to his father's Probate lawyers?

    I think there was possibly an easier way that the Cameron family could have avoided paying IHT on Ian's assets and that's if his wife inherited the assets as spouses do not pay IHT.

    Also, isn't the fund still active, therefore it hasn't been dissolved and somehow squirrelled away by the Prime Minister without anyone noticing, like you seem to be implying?
  • Singapore has a flat rate income tax of 20% and no tax on overseas income.

    Why would anyone not choose to set their business up in Singapore as opposed to the UK? If you hide information to avoid tax due in other territories that is an entirely separate matter. If every country had a 20% tax rate they would all be tax havens and there would be no purpose in hiding ownership.

    Putin and other crooks don't need tax havens, they need countries with inadequate governance of banking transactions that facilitate money laundering.

    There is no doubt that tax havens are fuelling the wealth gap between ordinary people and the super rich and there are reckoned to be £trillions amassed in bank accounts hidden from view in tax havens.

    What seems crazy to me is not addressing the root problem which is largely in the hands of the UK who control most tax havens which do not operate modern banking practices. Why not seek voluntary repatriation of off shore money by making the UK a tax haven. A small share of the £trillions flowing back to the UK taxed at even 20% would generate much more tax than 60% of what the minority of the super wealth don't move offshore.

    I know some take the view that it's unfair to even be wealthy so they should be penalised, but a tax system should be driven by generating revenue most effectively and fair to both high and middle income earners. The poor should not be paying tax.

  • BTW, just to disappoint some people further:
    First, the fund of which Cameron Snr. was a director is not and never has been an exclusive family-owned fund. Anybody (with money obviously) could have invested in it. As a consequence and because it had to be based somewhere, it was inevitable that some directors would have had to have travelled somewhere else to get to a meeting. The Bahamas sounds like as good a place as any.
    Second, again possibly disappointing some, the fund is no longer based offshore - well not far offshore anyway. It's run by a firm called Smith and Williamson which is headquartered in London although actual dealing is carried out from the capital city of one of the more infamous tax havens - Dublin.
    Third, the fund is not really that secret. Here's a link to a PDF which gives quite a lot of info.sandwfunds.com/key-investor-information
    Fourth, the fund's performance would have appeared to have been woeful. Almost anybody with a copy of the FT, a blindfold and a pin could have chosen somewhere better to put their money.
    Fifth, as suspected, it is an accumulation fund. Gains (which seem miniscule) are rolled up, no income is paid and tax does not become due until gains are crystallised.
    In summary I would be very surprised indeed if there was a story there at all or that there are any further gory details yet to be uncovered.
  • cafcfan said:

    BTW, just to disappoint some people further:
    First, the fund of which Cameron Snr. was a director is not and never has been an exclusive family-owned fund. Anybody (with money obviously) could have invested in it. As a consequence and because it had to be based somewhere, it was inevitable that some directors would have had to have travelled somewhere else to get to a meeting. The Bahamas sounds like as good a place as any.
    Second, again possibly disappointing some, the fund is no longer based offshore - well not far offshore anyway. It's run by a firm called Smith and Williamson which is headquartered in London although actual dealing is carried out from the capital city of one of the more infamous tax havens - Dublin.
    Third, the fund is not really that secret. Here's a link to a PDF which gives quite a lot of info.sandwfunds.com/key-investor-information
    Fourth, the fund's performance would have appeared to have been woeful. Almost anybody with a copy of the FT, a blindfold and a pin could have chosen somewhere better to put their money.
    Fifth, as suspected, it is an accumulation fund. Gains (which seem miniscule) are rolled up, no income is paid and tax does not become due until gains are crystallised.
    In summary I would be very surprised indeed if there was a story there at all or that there are any further gory details yet to be uncovered.

    Yeah but he's a Tory therefore he's guilty and evil. All Tories are evil and are hiding something.
  • Fiiish said:

    cafcfan said:

    BTW, just to disappoint some people further:
    First, the fund of which Cameron Snr. was a director is not and never has been an exclusive family-owned fund. Anybody (with money obviously) could have invested in it. As a consequence and because it had to be based somewhere, it was inevitable that some directors would have had to have travelled somewhere else to get to a meeting. The Bahamas sounds like as good a place as any.
    Second, again possibly disappointing some, the fund is no longer based offshore - well not far offshore anyway. It's run by a firm called Smith and Williamson which is headquartered in London although actual dealing is carried out from the capital city of one of the more infamous tax havens - Dublin.
    Third, the fund is not really that secret. Here's a link to a PDF which gives quite a lot of info.sandwfunds.com/key-investor-information
    Fourth, the fund's performance would have appeared to have been woeful. Almost anybody with a copy of the FT, a blindfold and a pin could have chosen somewhere better to put their money.
    Fifth, as suspected, it is an accumulation fund. Gains (which seem miniscule) are rolled up, no income is paid and tax does not become due until gains are crystallised.
    In summary I would be very surprised indeed if there was a story there at all or that there are any further gory details yet to be uncovered.

    Yeah but he's a Tory therefore he's guilty and evil. All Tories are evil and are hiding something.
    Quite, but if I can find this stuff out with a quick search courtesy of Bloomberg, you have to wonder what precisely was the agenda of the Panorama people with all their resources. Were they being deliberately obtuse?
  • cafcfan said:

    Fiiish said:

    cafcfan said:

    BTW, just to disappoint some people further:
    First, the fund of which Cameron Snr. was a director is not and never has been an exclusive family-owned fund. Anybody (with money obviously) could have invested in it. As a consequence and because it had to be based somewhere, it was inevitable that some directors would have had to have travelled somewhere else to get to a meeting. The Bahamas sounds like as good a place as any.
    Second, again possibly disappointing some, the fund is no longer based offshore - well not far offshore anyway. It's run by a firm called Smith and Williamson which is headquartered in London although actual dealing is carried out from the capital city of one of the more infamous tax havens - Dublin.
    Third, the fund is not really that secret. Here's a link to a PDF which gives quite a lot of info.sandwfunds.com/key-investor-information
    Fourth, the fund's performance would have appeared to have been woeful. Almost anybody with a copy of the FT, a blindfold and a pin could have chosen somewhere better to put their money.
    Fifth, as suspected, it is an accumulation fund. Gains (which seem miniscule) are rolled up, no income is paid and tax does not become due until gains are crystallised.
    In summary I would be very surprised indeed if there was a story there at all or that there are any further gory details yet to be uncovered.

    Yeah but he's a Tory therefore he's guilty and evil. All Tories are evil and are hiding something.
    Quite, but if I can find this stuff out with a quick search courtesy of Bloomberg, you have to wonder what precisely was the agenda of the Panorama people with all their resources. Were they being deliberately obtuse?
    There's too many people who think DC, and all Tories and rich people, are guilty of covering something up or that they all illegally accumulate wealth. Panorama had to do something to keep the tinfoil hatters off their backs.
  • edited April 2016
    Not all rich people - only the ones covering things up - Are you the Mother Theresa of the poor old rich? Them getting a hard time seems to be far more of an issue for you that the great injustices and suffering in the world.
  • No but I get annoyed when the local shop runs out of tinfoil because conspiracy theorists have bought it all to keep the Tory mind control rays away.
  • Fiiish said:

    No but I get annoyed when the local shop runs out of tinfoil because conspiracy theorists have bought it all to keep the Tory mind control rays away.

    Probably my fault - I bought a shed load of it just to be sure I'm protected.
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  • Not all rich people - only the ones covering things up - Are you the Mother Theresa of the poor old rich? Them getting a hard time seems to be far more of an issue for you that the great injustices and suffering in the world.

    I think taking issue with people baselessly accusing other people of illegal activity purely because they are a Tory and/or rich isn't being Mother Teresa, it's being a decent human being.

    Your last sentence is laughable to say the least. Of course I care more about other issues in the world but this isn't a thread about poverty, it's a thread about rich people being accused of illegal activity.
  • But there is a link - the distribution of wealth in the world is not healthy. The rich do have responsibilities and it is good when those that fall short are challenged IMO.
  • edited April 2016

    But there is a link - the distribution of wealth in the world is not healthy. The rich do have responsibilities and it is good when those that fall short are challenged IMO.

    So is DC's dad the only one mentioned in the 11.5m documents?

    Edit - Just seen the list. Surprised at the number of Middle Eastern potentates there, I thought riba prevented Muslims from this kind of fiduciary fiddling?

  • But there is a link - the distribution of wealth in the world is not healthy. The rich do have responsibilities and it is good when those that fall short are challenged IMO.

    Fair enough and those who are being exposed by this scandal should be investigated. I think it is important to separate the actual criminality from the conspiracy theories and also that no one should be accused of criminality purely based on their wealth or political persuasion.
  • Fiiish said:

    cafcfan said:

    BTW, just to disappoint some people further:
    First, the fund of which Cameron Snr. was a director is not and never has been an exclusive family-owned fund. Anybody (with money obviously) could have invested in it. As a consequence and because it had to be based somewhere, it was inevitable that some directors would have had to have travelled somewhere else to get to a meeting. The Bahamas sounds like as good a place as any.
    Second, again possibly disappointing some, the fund is no longer based offshore - well not far offshore anyway. It's run by a firm called Smith and Williamson which is headquartered in London although actual dealing is carried out from the capital city of one of the more infamous tax havens - Dublin.
    Third, the fund is not really that secret. Here's a link to a PDF which gives quite a lot of info.sandwfunds.com/key-investor-information
    Fourth, the fund's performance would have appeared to have been woeful. Almost anybody with a copy of the FT, a blindfold and a pin could have chosen somewhere better to put their money.
    Fifth, as suspected, it is an accumulation fund. Gains (which seem miniscule) are rolled up, no income is paid and tax does not become due until gains are crystallised.
    In summary I would be very surprised indeed if there was a story there at all or that there are any further gory details yet to be uncovered.

    Yeah but he's a Tory therefore he's guilty and evil. All Tories are evil and are hiding something.
    Can't say fairer than that... :wink:

    But, even as a dangerous lefty I have to admit that I have less concerns about young Mr Cameron and this particular story than I have about him leading a government whose tax collecting agency seems to strike curiously bad deals...

    And this is an historic problem, it was equally bad under Brown and Blair, and beyond. So it's not just Amazon, Google and Starbucks.
  • Addickted said:

    But there is a link - the distribution of wealth in the world is not healthy. The rich do have responsibilities and it is good when those that fall short are challenged IMO.

    So is DC's dad the only one mentioned in the 11.5m documents?

    Edit - Just seen the list. Surprised at the number of Middle Eastern potentates there, I thought riba prevented Muslims from this kind of fiduciary fiddling?

    A little bit like Judaism and Christianity, it's usury that is the problem, which is why, historically, various "outsiders" have been used through history to do the dirty work for the believers (Lombards, Fuggers, Jews, Cayman Islands, etc.)...
  • Jeremy Corbyn's campaign team has accused the Prime Minister of being a tax dodger. Will Jez stand by the comments?
  • Tinfoil hats all round for Sky News and the Financial Times
  • IA said:

    Tinfoil hats all round for Sky News and the Financial Times

    I'm sorry I have missed the part where Sky News and the FT have revealed any illegal activity done by the PM or his late father.
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