Tasered for six times the normal time and kicked twice in the head does not appear to be "reasonable force". Putting that to one side, the fact that the Jury took just 18 hours to deliver their verdict and were unanimous in that respect is more enough for me to believe that justice has been served. No one is above the Law but, equally, every day Police Officers are placed in situations that are beyond comprehension of everyday folk and I have nothing but admiration for them.
There's no justification for behaviour like this whatever the job is.
The woman witness, BTW, was middle-aged. If you wanted to pigeon-hole her, you'd say typical Tory voter. Not someone you'd automatically assume was anti-police. It's difficult to imagine why she'd make this stuff up. Still, if true, it would be fairly straightforward for the forensics to support her testimony.
I'm guessing there are some very worried BiB.
Just seen her interview - "an African gentleman" classic.
I'm gonna stick my neck on the line and say I think he's more likely to be of Caribbean descent than African, but why couldn't she just say 'black'. She's come across as very pigeon holed based on that interview....
Yes, indeed. But does that not, of itself, make her testimony more compelling, not less?
The police are not being well served by the current processes for investigating any alleged wrongdoings. If that woman had said she'd seen you and me attack an individual lying prone on the floor several times with a lethal weapon and to then have kicked the prone body (not to mention waiting 20 minutes to call an ambulance allegedly - even the IPPC seem to acknowledge there was a delay) then we would have been arrested on the spot. The same should happen with police officers. They should not be perceived to be above the law. Due process would be best served if they had been arrested straight away, separated (so they could not concoct their story) and interviewed and their clothing bagged as soon as they were back at the nick.
But that doesn't happen. It's one of a number of reasons why members of the public have little faith or trust in the police in this country.
This from the IPPC (my emphasis):
Since this morning IPCC investigators have been conducting house to house enquiries in the immediate area and gathering available information. Police logs and radio transmissions are being obtained. The police officers involved and independent witnesses will be interviewed by IPCC investigators. Initial data from the Taser has (sic) been downloaded and it is (sic) being sent for further testing.
A post mortem is due to be carried out later this week.
None of the relevant officers were wearing body worn video cameras.
See? They haven't even formally interviewed the officers yet! No mention of whether they've taken their clothing, boots, etc for forensics. Or whether a crime scene was secured. Or whether the officers are even suspended. What does "further" testing mean?
I'm not saying the plod are guilty of anything at all. But the authorities do not seem to be giving themselves the best start in getting the true picture. CSI Telford it isn't.
So much speculation and bias in one post it's quite hard to know where to begin.
Firstly, you mention about two men carrying a lethal weapon, if it was Joe Public carrying a taser, then firstly it would be illegal, and secondly it is not considered a lethal weapon - it is considered to do less harm than use of a baton. Yes of course in this instance, it has been used and a death has occurred, but
The woman who stated that Atkinson was kicked was one person, what have others said in their witness testimony?
You say police should not be above the law - they clearly are not. If anything they are under more scrutiny than ordinary members of the public.
You say due process would be best served if arrested straight away. Why's that then? What exactly do you mean by due process? The officers will be investigated and interviewed in a timely manner. Your comment about concocting a story clearly shows a pre conceived bias against police.
You then throw about wild speculation about securing the scene and seizing of clothing. If you even happened to watch the news on this it clearly showed the scene taped off, preserved for evidence, with members of the IPcc in attendance. Also what are you looking for from the officers clothing being seized?
There's more to argue in your post, but in all honesty you seem to have set your stall out and there seems little point.
Also to the poster re the Taser. It does not have to be reloaded, once the barbs have attached you can keep 'firing' in short bursts. And yes they are quite loud actually.
Gotta love how everyone becomes an expert in these matters. Gees.
His comment about concocting a story shows experience of the filth rather than bias. More than one case known where they’ve conspired together to present a story to fit their viewpoint.
The Jury decided the policeman crossed the line and without hearing every single piece of evidence it came across that way.
Dalian Atkinson was a disturbed man who was being aggressive: don't know what medication he was on but he was having an episode and was a risk to himself and potentially to others. Why PC Monk would taser someone for 30 seconds only he knows.
There are no winners in this case and the police have to use just enough force. In many Countries the police are given carte blanche to batter their citizens or subjects if any protests happen or civil unrest.
We demand higher standards and accountability but it's one difficult job at times as an acquaintance found out when driving home with his police dog in his van when a fire extinguisher was thrown his window as Croydon was being ransacked on the night of the riots when police had been deployed to other parts of London so the criminals took to the Streets to cash in. A young Polish woman leapt from her flat after a 150 year old local carpet shop was set alight.
If he'd just Tasered him, even for the 30s, he'd have probably got away with it. The boots to the head are what have got the conviction.
It's always possible to argue, in the heat of the moment, he didn't realise how long he'd held the button, or that he thought it wasnt working because Atkinson kept coming. But it's impossible to make any argument to defend a boot to the head of seone already on the ground.
Very easy to judge,yes a kick in the head does seem out of order,and is why the guy was convicted.But who of us has ever faced these situations,the officer could easily have feared for his safety considering the tasar failed to put Atkinson out of action.Similar to soldiers appearing to go over the top in war zones,and then getting done for war crimes,how would any of us react in similar circumstances.Not defending anyone ,the jury have done their job,being a public servant facing danger every day of their lives would certainly not be for me.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
You'd have to sit through the case and hear all the evidence to make a judgement re the conviction.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Something I've wondered for a while is what happens if you're a snorer when sharing a cell? I don't mean the odd snort but a full on noisy bastard. My wife oftens digs me during the night but would imagine a fellow con would do more damage than the odd elbow in the side.
Can you be separated if you keep people awake all night?
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
You'd have to sit through the case and hear all the evidence to make a judgement re the conviction.
I think it has been clearly reported that Atkinson was kicked in the head after being incapacitated. Hence why the jury found him guilty and why we CAN make a judgement. Are you seriously saying nobody can comment on what they know and have read unless they have sat through the case in court?
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
You'd have to sit through the case and hear all the evidence to make a judgement re the conviction.
I think it has been clearly reported that Atkinson was kicked in the head after being incapacitated. Hence why the jury found him guilty and why we CAN make a judgement. Are you seriously saying nobody can comment on what they know and have read unless they have sat through the case in court?
If you decide the outcome of a case without listening to the evidence of the case, it's a flawed judgement and worthless.
Of course you can have an opinion. But that opinion is of considerably less value than that of someone who has listened to the evidence. And, unfortunately, the only people who have listened to all the evidence have given their verdict on that evidence and are not allowed to comment further.
If you decide that you 'can't imagine a clearer case of murder', without having the benefit of all the evidence and not - seemingly - taking into account any mitigation presented by the defendant, then your opinion may be fairly interesting, but your conclusion is worthless.
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
You'd have to sit through the case and hear all the evidence to make a judgement re the conviction.
I think it has been clearly reported that Atkinson was kicked in the head after being incapacitated. Hence why the jury found him guilty and why we CAN make a judgement. Are you seriously saying nobody can comment on what they know and have read unless they have sat through the case in court?
If you decide the outcome of a case without listening to the evidence of the case, it's a flawed judgement and worthless.
Of course you can have an opinion. But that opinion is of considerably less value than that of someone who has listened to the evidence. And, unfortunately, the only people who have listened to all the evidence have given their verdict on that evidence and are not allowed to comment further.
If you decide that you 'can't imagine a clearer case of murder', without having the benefit of all the evidence and not - seemingly - taking into account any mitigation presented by the defendant, then your opinion may be fairly interesting, but your conclusion is worthless.
There is a clear legal difference between manslaughter and murder - the jury didn't think the murder conviction was warranted.
Very easy to judge,yes a kick in the head does seem out of order,and is why the guy was convicted.But who of us has ever faced these situations,the officer could easily have feared for his safety considering the tasar failed to put Atkinson out of action.Similar to soldiers appearing to go over the top in war zones,and then getting done for war crimes,how would any of us react in similar circumstances.Not defending anyone ,the jury have done their job,being a public servant facing danger every day of their lives would certainly not be for me.
I have to say, I meet mentally ill people almost daily at work, often 1-1 and without immediate backup. I've been face to face, literally, with incredibly angry and disturbed individuals (and their relatives) and keeping order takes skill and experience. My colleagues working on the psychiatric wards are often faced with violence. Regularly there will be 3-4 staff on a ward, sometimes all are female, having to manage a mixed patient ward. None of these staff are armed with anything other than a panic alarm to call for yet more unarmed staff and their tenacity. I work closely with Police Officers in this work and I view that they do an incredibly demanding and challenging job, no doubt, but violence is often met with violence, hence most experienced officers will view this action as a last result.
I only met Dalian once socially in the 90's and he seemed a very likeable young man back then. RIP
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Something I've wondered for a while is what happens if you're a snorer when sharing a cell? I don't mean the odd snort but a full on noisy bastard. My wife oftens digs me during the night but would imagine a fellow con would do more damage than the odd elbow in the side.
Can you be separated if you keep people awake all night?
Not 100% sure, all the cells at my jail are single occupancy. I could imagine that if the problem is confirmed as necessary then a cell move could be authorised to prevent someone’s snoring provoking an assault. I know from working nights and early morning checks that there are some incredibly loud snorers who you can hear from the other end of the landing.
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Something I've wondered for a while is what happens if you're a snorer when sharing a cell? I don't mean the odd snort but a full on noisy bastard. My wife oftens digs me during the night but would imagine a fellow con would do more damage than the odd elbow in the side.
Can you be separated if you keep people awake all night?
Not 100% sure, all the cells at my jail are single occupancy. I could imagine that if the problem is confirmed as necessary then a cell move could be authorised to prevent someone’s snoring provoking an assault. I know from working nights and early morning checks that there are some incredibly loud snorers who you can hear from the other end of the landing.
Cheers. I'm not planning on getting banged up any time soon but will put a request in for your place if I do, to get a cell on my own!
Wasn't it two kicks to the head when Atkinson was already on the ground?
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
How will he be protected in prison?
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Something I've wondered for a while is what happens if you're a snorer when sharing a cell? I don't mean the odd snort but a full on noisy bastard. My wife oftens digs me during the night but would imagine a fellow con would do more damage than the odd elbow in the side.
Can you be separated if you keep people awake all night?
Not 100% sure, all the cells at my jail are single occupancy. I could imagine that if the problem is confirmed as necessary then a cell move could be authorised to prevent someone’s snoring provoking an assault. I know from working nights and early morning checks that there are some incredibly loud snorers who you can hear from the other end of the landing.
Cheers. I'm not planning on getting banged up any time soon but will put a request in for your place if I do, to get a cell on my own!
being banged up with a chronic snorer must surely qualify as cruel and unjust punishment .. is there a civil rights case about this ?
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
You'd have to sit through the case and hear all the evidence to make a judgement re the conviction.
I think it has been clearly reported that Atkinson was kicked in the head after being incapacitated. Hence why the jury found him guilty and why we CAN make a judgement. Are you seriously saying nobody can comment on what they know and have read unless they have sat through the case in court?
If you decide the outcome of a case without listening to the evidence of the case, it's a flawed judgement and worthless.
Of course you can have an opinion. But that opinion is of considerably less value than that of someone who has listened to the evidence. And, unfortunately, the only people who have listened to all the evidence have given their verdict on that evidence and are not allowed to comment further.
If you decide that you 'can't imagine a clearer case of murder', without having the benefit of all the evidence and not - seemingly - taking into account any mitigation presented by the defendant, then your opinion may be fairly interesting, but your conclusion is worthless.
Are you saying Atkinson wasn't kicked in the head after he was incapacitated then?
People do things in the heat of the moment when angry. But when they are wearing a police uniform they have to be better than that. I think it is impossible to argue the force used was appropriate and it was so inappropriate it killed somebody. I can't imagine a clearer case of murder. Not premeditated, but murder all the same.
You'd have to sit through the case and hear all the evidence to make a judgement re the conviction.
I think it has been clearly reported that Atkinson was kicked in the head after being incapacitated. Hence why the jury found him guilty and why we CAN make a judgement. Are you seriously saying nobody can comment on what they know and have read unless they have sat through the case in court?
If you decide the outcome of a case without listening to the evidence of the case, it's a flawed judgement and worthless.
Of course you can have an opinion. But that opinion is of considerably less value than that of someone who has listened to the evidence. And, unfortunately, the only people who have listened to all the evidence have given their verdict on that evidence and are not allowed to comment further.
If you decide that you 'can't imagine a clearer case of murder', without having the benefit of all the evidence and not - seemingly - taking into account any mitigation presented by the defendant, then your opinion may be fairly interesting, but your conclusion is worthless.
Are you saying Atkinson wasn't kicked in the head after he was incapacitated then?
No. I am saying that, unless you have sat through all the evidence, given under oath, an amateur, independent guess as to a different verdict is worthless. Interesting, possibly. But worthless.
If there is no majority and a verdict has not been reached, the jury is known as a ‘hung jury’.
The judge will discharge the jury and the trial will conclude, albeit without a verdict. After a hung jury, the accused will not be acquitted or convicted.
After a hung jury, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) must then determine whether they will have a retrial. This is dependent on the views of the victim(s) or interested parties.
Very easy to judge,yes a kick in the head does seem out of order,and is why the guy was convicted.But who of us has ever faced these situations,the officer could easily have feared for his safety considering the tasar failed to put Atkinson out of action.Similar to soldiers appearing to go over the top in war zones,and then getting done for war crimes,how would any of us react in similar circumstances.Not defending anyone ,the jury have done their job,being a public servant facing danger every day of their lives would certainly not be for me.
I have some sympathy with this sentiment but it does seem that this conviction is right. @AddickUpNorth , I'd be interested in your thoughts on this (please feel free to ignore if inappropriate to comment) - you must find yourself, or have experienced, difficult situations where the level of force required is a judgement call - how does anyone in that situation define the appropriate level of force and is there a clear (and obvious) delineation between appropriate and unlawful?
Very easy to judge,yes a kick in the head does seem out of order,and is why the guy was convicted.But who of us has ever faced these situations,the officer could easily have feared for his safety considering the tasar failed to put Atkinson out of action.Similar to soldiers appearing to go over the top in war zones,and then getting done for war crimes,how would any of us react in similar circumstances.Not defending anyone ,the jury have done their job,being a public servant facing danger every day of their lives would certainly not be for me.
I have some sympathy with this sentiment but it does seem that this conviction is right. @AddickUpNorth , I'd be interested in your thoughts on this (please feel free to ignore if inappropriate to comment) - you must find yourself, or have experienced, difficult situations where the level of force required is a judgement call - how does anyone in that situation define the appropriate level of force and is there a clear (and obvious) delineation between appropriate and unlawful?
That's exactly what this decision was about. Whether or not the circumstances in this one instance could justify the level of force involved - and the answer was no, it was inappropriate and unlawful amounts of force.
But that's why trials and the law are important, because on the face of it most same people couldn't justify kicking an already fallen person so hard it left imprints - but it could theoretically have happened
For clarity I do not for a minute think that the officer WAS justified but equally I am glad it was proven properly in law according to due process.
Very easy to judge,yes a kick in the head does seem out of order,and is why the guy was convicted.But who of us has ever faced these situations,the officer could easily have feared for his safety considering the tasar failed to put Atkinson out of action.Similar to soldiers appearing to go over the top in war zones,and then getting done for war crimes,how would any of us react in similar circumstances.Not defending anyone ,the jury have done their job,being a public servant facing danger every day of their lives would certainly not be for me.
I have some sympathy with this sentiment but it does seem that this conviction is right. @AddickUpNorth , I'd be interested in your thoughts on this (please feel free to ignore if inappropriate to comment) - you must find yourself, or have experienced, difficult situations where the level of force required is a judgement call - how does anyone in that situation define the appropriate level of force and is there a clear (and obvious) delineation between appropriate and unlawful?
Very easy to judge,yes a kick in the head does seem out of order,and is why the guy was convicted.But who of us has ever faced these situations,the officer could easily have feared for his safety considering the tasar failed to put Atkinson out of action.Similar to soldiers appearing to go over the top in war zones,and then getting done for war crimes,how would any of us react in similar circumstances.Not defending anyone ,the jury have done their job,being a public servant facing danger every day of their lives would certainly not be for me.
I have some sympathy with this sentiment but it does seem that this conviction is right. @AddickUpNorth , I'd be interested in your thoughts on this (please feel free to ignore if inappropriate to comment) - you must find yourself, or have experienced, difficult situations where the level of force required is a judgement call - how does anyone in that situation define the appropriate level of force and is there a clear (and obvious) delineation between appropriate and unlawful?
He answered this already (9.24am today).
Thanks (and thanks AUN) - not sure how I missed that...
Comments
Dalian Atkinson was a disturbed man who was being aggressive: don't know what medication he was on but he was having an episode and was a risk to himself and potentially to others. Why PC Monk would taser someone for 30 seconds only he knows.
There are no winners in this case and the police have to use just enough force. In many Countries the police are given carte blanche to batter their citizens or subjects if any protests happen or civil unrest.
We demand higher standards and accountability but it's one difficult job at times as an acquaintance found out when driving home with his police dog in his van when a fire extinguisher was thrown his window as Croydon was being ransacked on the night of the riots when police had been deployed to other parts of London so the criminals took to the Streets to cash in. A young Polish woman leapt from her flat after a 150 year old local carpet shop was set alight.
I'm assuming Atkinson didn't have a weapon as I've not seen it mentioned?
It's always possible to argue, in the heat of the moment, he didn't realise how long he'd held the button, or that he thought it wasnt working because Atkinson kept coming. But it's impossible to make any argument to defend a boot to the head of seone already on the ground.
Yes, it's a incredibly difficult job but he killed someone.
Manslaughter is very hard to prove in court as the prosecution has to prove that the defendant wasn't acting "reasonably" to the situation as they saw it at the time.
That's why, despite what some tabloids tell us, you can physically attack and injure someone who breaks into you house quite legally.
What you, or a police officer, can't do, is repeatedly kick an already prone person in the head.
In my job it’s an absolute no-no and I’d be sacked immediately and could potentially face charges. The head is classed as a red zone and striking it is to be avoided at all cost. Obviously if an irate prisoner came at me I’m allowed to defend myself so punching someone in the nose is acceptable if I have a ‘genuine fear’ that my life is in danger but if that prisoner were to go down and I continued to punch him in the head it’s goodbye job, goodbye pension. If I drew my baton and struck them in the head then I might as well pack my bags and prepare to see life in prison from the other side. Yes, things do happen in the heat of the moment and I can assure anyone it can get scary but as a trained professional you have to remember the can do/can’t do at all times. That’s what we and the police are trained to do. That police officer went way over the line and deserves what’s coming to him.
It depends. He could do his time segregated but if it’s years then that would be some hard time. I don’t think there’s any units in the system for jailed police officers so it may be the case that he’ll just have to front it out. He’ll probably have a cell to himself because jail bosses won’t want the hassle of having to deal with the shit if he gets done by a pad mate overnight. He could always pay a hard bastard con for protection but even that’s not going to guarantee his safety 100%. I once had an ex-police officer who got sentenced for rape on one of the wings I worked on and nothing happened to him but obviously this case is a lot more high profile so it’s a different scenario. I don’t want to bring race into it because there’s nothing about the case that suggests that he did what he did because Atkinson was a black man but that won’t matter to some prisoners. A white police officer killing a black man will not go down well at all with some prisoners. He’s definitely going to be a marked man however it plays out.
Can you be separated if you keep people awake all night?
Of course you can have an opinion. But that opinion is of considerably less value than that of someone who has listened to the evidence. And, unfortunately, the only people who have listened to all the evidence have given their verdict on that evidence and are not allowed to comment further.
If you decide that you 'can't imagine a clearer case of murder', without having the benefit of all the evidence and not - seemingly - taking into account any mitigation presented by the defendant, then your opinion may be fairly interesting, but your conclusion is worthless.
I only met Dalian once socially in the 90's and he seemed a very likeable young man back then. RIP
Not 100% sure, all the cells at my jail are single occupancy. I could imagine that if the problem is confirmed as necessary then a cell move could be authorised to prevent someone’s snoring provoking an assault. I know from working nights and early morning checks that there are some incredibly loud snorers who you can hear from the other end of the landing.
Jurors have failed to reach a decision about whether a PC assaulted footballer Dalian Atkinson during his arrest in 2016.
PC Mary Ellen Bettley-Smith, 31, denied assault after he had been tasered saying her actions were necessary to stop him from getting up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-57595434
What is a hung jury?
If there is no majority and a verdict has not been reached, the jury is known as a ‘hung jury’.
The judge will discharge the jury and the trial will conclude, albeit without a verdict. After a hung jury, the accused will not be acquitted or convicted.
After a hung jury, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) must then determine whether they will have a retrial. This is dependent on the views of the victim(s) or interested parties.
But that's why trials and the law are important, because on the face of it most same people couldn't justify kicking an already fallen person so hard it left imprints - but it could theoretically have happened
For clarity I do not for a minute think that the officer WAS justified but equally I am glad it was proven properly in law according to due process.