Seems mental in this day and age that dangerous pieces of track, such as a tight bend, are left done purely to human control
Is there no way to automatically control speed around certain parts of the track?
I use the tram all the time and that part of the track is probably one of the fastest parts,from Lloyds Park to Sandilands and it always strikes me at the speed the trams take that corner at.
absolutely horrendous .. as bad a disaster as a lot of train crashes .. is there any indication of how fast the tram was moving ? .. Just on your way to work on a normal workday and this happens .. FIVE dead and many injured .. TfL has a lot to answer for here ... RIP to the dead and condolences to the injured and bereaved
Why does TfL have a lot to answer for?
Some "facts" I've picked up from various news sources: - The tram overturned on a sharp bend - The bend has a 16mph speed limit - It was raining quite heavily - Driver has been arrested
I'm no detective, but put the details above together & it's a reasonable supposition that the driver was going too fast around the bend (whether on purpose or due to a mechanical fault, we'll eventually find out).
On a side note: Ignoring the Charlton stereotypes for a moment, I actually went on a tour of the Croydon tram depot a few months back as I thought it would be interesting to see how it was run. Two of the pieces of insight I took away were that trams are regarded as "road vehicles" (so you're effectively on a bus) and that signals are "advisory rather than mandatory".
@SuedeAdidas (could you not have thought this through for yourself ?) .. this answer goes a long way to explain why Tfl has a lot to answer for ..
the whole set up of the system, suitability and training of drivers, the road worthiness and stability of the carriages ..
FIVE are dead .. questions need to be answered and circumstances need serious investigation.. I sincerely hope that the investigation/inquiry does not take the seemingly statutory four or five years with a cast of a thousand ambulance chasing lawyers,
absolutely horrendous .. as bad a disaster as a lot of train crashes .. is there any indication of how fast the tram was moving ? .. Just on your way to work on a normal workday and this happens .. FIVE dead and many injured .. TfL has a lot to answer for here ... RIP to the dead and condolences to the injured and bereaved
Why does TfL have a lot to answer for?
Some "facts" I've picked up from various news sources: - The tram overturned on a sharp bend - The bend has a 16mph speed limit - It was raining quite heavily - Driver has been arrested
I'm no detective, but put the details above together & it's a reasonable supposition that the driver was going too fast around the bend (whether on purpose or due to a mechanical fault, we'll eventually find out).
On a side note: Ignoring the Charlton stereotypes for a moment, I actually went on a tour of the Croydon tram depot a few months back as I thought it would be interesting to see how it was run. Two of the pieces of insight I took away were that trams are regarded as "road vehicles" (so you're effectively on a bus) and that signals are "advisory rather than mandatory".
@SuedeAdidas (could you not have thought this through for yourself ?) .. this answer goes a long way to explain why Tfl has a lot to answer for ..
the whole set up of the system, suitability and training of drivers, the road worthiness and stability of the carriages ..
FIVE are dead .. questions need to be answered and circumstances need serious investigation.. I sincerely hope that the investigation/inquiry does not take the seemingly statutory four or five years with a cast of a thousand ambulance chasing lawyers,
Until we get more information, we have no idea whether TfL have anything to answer for or not.
absolutely horrendous .. as bad a disaster as a lot of train crashes .. is there any indication of how fast the tram was moving ? .. Just on your way to work on a normal workday and this happens .. FIVE dead and many injured .. TfL has a lot to answer for here ... RIP to the dead and condolences to the injured and bereaved
Why does TfL have a lot to answer for?
Some "facts" I've picked up from various news sources: - The tram overturned on a sharp bend - The bend has a 16mph speed limit - It was raining quite heavily - Driver has been arrested
I'm no detective, but put the details above together & it's a reasonable supposition that the driver was going too fast around the bend (whether on purpose or due to a mechanical fault, we'll eventually find out).
On a side note: Ignoring the Charlton stereotypes for a moment, I actually went on a tour of the Croydon tram depot a few months back as I thought it would be interesting to see how it was run. Two of the pieces of insight I took away were that trams are regarded as "road vehicles" (so you're effectively on a bus) and that signals are "advisory rather than mandatory".
@SuedeAdidas (could you not have thought this through for yourself ?) .. this answer goes a long way to explain why Tfl has a lot to answer for ..
the whole set up of the system, suitability and training of drivers, the road worthiness and stability of the carriages ..
FIVE are dead .. questions need to be answered and circumstances need serious investigation.. I sincerely hope that the investigation/inquiry does not take the seemingly statutory four or five years with a cast of a thousand ambulance chasing lawyers,
Tfl has questions to answer. "TfL has a lot to answer for" is a completely different thing. Firstly, Tramlink is operated by First Group under contract.
absolutely horrendous .. as bad a disaster as a lot of train crashes .. is there any indication of how fast the tram was moving ? .. Just on your way to work on a normal workday and this happens .. FIVE dead and many injured .. TfL has a lot to answer for here ... RIP to the dead and condolences to the injured and bereaved
Why does TfL have a lot to answer for?
Some "facts" I've picked up from various news sources: - The tram overturned on a sharp bend - The bend has a 16mph speed limit - It was raining quite heavily - Driver has been arrested
I'm no detective, but put the details above together & it's a reasonable supposition that the driver was going too fast around the bend (whether on purpose or due to a mechanical fault, we'll eventually find out).
On a side note: Ignoring the Charlton stereotypes for a moment, I actually went on a tour of the Croydon tram depot a few months back as I thought it would be interesting to see how it was run. Two of the pieces of insight I took away were that trams are regarded as "road vehicles" (so you're effectively on a bus) and that signals are "advisory rather than mandatory".
@SuedeAdidas (could you not have thought this through for yourself ?) .. this answer goes a long way to explain why Tfl has a lot to answer for ..
the whole set up of the system, suitability and training of drivers, the road worthiness and stability of the carriages ..
FIVE are dead .. questions need to be answered and circumstances need serious investigation.. I sincerely hope that the investigation/inquiry does not take the seemingly statutory four or five years with a cast of a thousand ambulance chasing lawyers,
I totally agree that questions need to be answered - but I do not see any evidence as yet that would lead to any major blame being laid at TFL's door ?!?
DLR is a railway rather than a tram system. Trams need a driver because they interact with the general traffic
If (and it's a big if) we can have driverless cars, then we'll have driverless trams as week.
Boris had been pushing for driverless Tube trains, that's a long way off and liked to be resisted by many
Driverless tube trains is far easier to achieve than driverless trams. Tube trains are already pretty much driven by a central computerised signalling system on several lines. The "driver" only opens/closes the doors.
driverless/crewless/technology controlled systems off all kinds are all very well and inevitable as the human race increasingly makes itself redundant .. BUT, as we all know, all computerised systems are vulnerable to hacking and outside interference as well as machine malfunction .. remember HAL from 2001 ? .. be VERY afraid
driverless/crewless/technology controlled systems off all kinds are all very well and inevitable as the human race increasingly makes itself redundant .. BUT, as we all know, all computerised systems are vulnerable to hacking and outside interference as well as machine malfunction .. remember HAL from 2001 ? .. be VERY afraid
So you're left with human control...and human error. Nothing is perfect & unfortunately these incidents will always occur, no matter how much we try to mitigate against them
driverless/crewless/technology controlled systems off all kinds are all very well and inevitable as the human race increasingly makes itself redundant .. BUT, as we all know, all computerised systems are vulnerable to hacking and outside interference as well as machine malfunction .. remember HAL from 2001 ? .. be VERY afraid
So you're left with human control...and human error. Nothing is perfect & unfortunately these incidents will always occur, no matter how much we try to mitigate against them
During my career in the fire brigade i served at New Addington for 15 years and attended quite a few tram incidents including fatalities so can fully appreciate what today's incident will have been like. RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their families
I would have thought the driver is going to be in shock and less than coherent for sometime after the accident. Probably need to be cautioned and that would I expect be part of the arrest process. Unless there is a charge I would be careful of reading anything into it.
During my career in the fire brigade i served at New Addington for 15 years and attended quite a few tram incidents including fatalities so can fully appreciate what today's incident will have been like. RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their families
good post .. are you saying that incidents on the tram system are quite/comparatively common .. and fatalities ? .. I no longer live in South London but even so have not heard of this before .. to your knowledge, have improvements/changes been made to the tram infrastructure/working protocols after these incidents ?
Incidents and deaths on the railway are very common - mainly "non suspicious" - suicides or misadventure. Of course there will also be rare accidents such as cars hitting the trams or people not looking before crossing."
Something like what we've seen today is unprecedented on the trams I would imagine.
According to BBC this is the first loss of life from a tram crash since 1959 in Glasgow.
That must be for tram passengers, as at least one pedestrian has been killed in Croydon.
@Lincsaddick I'm sure that per passenger mile trams are an awful lot safer than cars but there will always be accidents considering they're on the road. That's what makes today so shocking/seemingly avoidable.
During my career in the fire brigade i served at New Addington for 15 years and attended quite a few tram incidents including fatalities so can fully appreciate what today's incident will have been like. RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their families
good post .. are you saying that incidents on the tram system are quite/comparatively common .. and fatalities ? .. I no longer live in South London but even so have not heard of this before .. to your knowledge, have improvements/changes been made to the tram infrastructure/working protocols after these incidents ?
When the tram system was originally built we had quite a few accidents including fatalities I'm afraid. I think the system was originally based on a system from northern Ireland, one day we had a meeting at Addington fire station which included a delegation from Northern Ireland ,Croydon councillors and ourselves. One of the points of concern we raised was just how quiet the trams were, an elderly woman had recently been killed directly opposite the station while crossing the tracks to get to the opposite platform. Apparently she looked left and saw a tram approaching and stepped onto the tracks where she was hit by a tram coming from the opposite side, she simply never heard it approaching. Despite the best efforts of ourselves and London ambulance service including paramedics from the helicopter service she died. When we asked if trams could be fitted with some sort of device that could be heard when they were approaching tram stops we were told that the trams were designed to be as quite as possible so as not to disturb local residents who lived nearby. So basically it is down to the individual person crossing to look both ways. Another time we were called to an incident where a tram had hit a bus and spun the bus round like a toy fortunately no fatalities. At least four occasions i attended incidents where car's collided with a tram these did involve fatalities. As to weather the trams are safer now i believe that they are but wherever you have a system that allows the public to walk across the tracks and for traffic to cross the tracks you will always have the potential for accident I'm afraid
During my career in the fire brigade i served at New Addington for 15 years and attended quite a few tram incidents including fatalities so can fully appreciate what today's incident will have been like. RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their families
good post .. are you saying that incidents on the tram system are quite/comparatively common .. and fatalities ? .. I no longer live in South London but even so have not heard of this before .. to your knowledge, have improvements/changes been made to the tram infrastructure/working protocols after these incidents ?
When the tram system was originally built we had quite a few accidents including fatalities I'm afraid. I think the system was originally based on a system from northern Ireland, one day we had a meeting at Addington fire station which included a delegation from Northern Ireland ,Croydon councillors and ourselves. One of the points of concern we raised was just how quiet the trams were, an elderly woman had recently been killed directly opposite the station while crossing the tracks to get to the opposite platform. Apparently she looked left and saw a tram approaching and stepped onto the tracks where she was hit by a tram coming from the opposite side, she simply never heard it approaching. Despite the best efforts of ourselves and London ambulance service including paramedics from the helicopter service she died. When we asked if trams could be fitted with some sort of device that could be heard when they were approaching tram stops we were told that the trams were designed to be as quite as possible so as not to disturb local residents who lived nearby. So basically it is down to the individual person crossing to look both ways. Another time we were called to an incident where a tram had hit a bus and spun the bus round like a toy fortunately no fatalities. At least four occasions i attended incidents where car's collided with a tram these did involve fatalities. As to weather the trams are safer now i believe that they are but wherever you have a system that allows the public to walk across the tracks and for traffic to cross the tracks you will always have the potential for accident I'm afraid
thanks for a very detailed and informative answer @blackpool72
During my career in the fire brigade i served at New Addington for 15 years and attended quite a few tram incidents including fatalities so can fully appreciate what today's incident will have been like. RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their families
good post .. are you saying that incidents on the tram system are quite/comparatively common .. and fatalities ? .. I no longer live in South London but even so have not heard of this before .. to your knowledge, have improvements/changes been made to the tram infrastructure/working protocols after these incidents ?
When the tram system was originally built we had quite a few accidents including fatalities I'm afraid. I think the system was originally based on a system from northern Ireland, one day we had a meeting at Addington fire station which included a delegation from Northern Ireland ,Croydon councillors and ourselves. One of the points of concern we raised was just how quiet the trams were, an elderly woman had recently been killed directly opposite the station while crossing the tracks to get to the opposite platform. Apparently she looked left and saw a tram approaching and stepped onto the tracks where she was hit by a tram coming from the opposite side, she simply never heard it approaching. Despite the best efforts of ourselves and London ambulance service including paramedics from the helicopter service she died. When we asked if trams could be fitted with some sort of device that could be heard when they were approaching tram stops we were told that the trams were designed to be as quite as possible so as not to disturb local residents who lived nearby. So basically it is down to the individual person crossing to look both ways. Another time we were called to an incident where a tram had hit a bus and spun the bus round like a toy fortunately no fatalities. At least four occasions i attended incidents where car's collided with a tram these did involve fatalities. As to weather the trams are safer now i believe that they are but wherever you have a system that allows the public to walk across the tracks and for traffic to cross the tracks you will always have the potential for accident I'm afraid
thanks for a very detailed and informative answer @blackpool72
Comments
Would no doubt come down to investment and job losses as the main arguments against it.
Trams need a driver because they interact with the general traffic
Without pre-judging the situation I would assume that the Police would automatically undertake drink/drug tests.
Edit - the Evening Standard reported 12 minutes ago that the driver remains in custody.
the whole set up of the system, suitability and training of drivers, the road worthiness and stability of the carriages ..
FIVE are dead .. questions need to be answered and circumstances need serious investigation.. I sincerely hope that the investigation/inquiry does not take the seemingly statutory four or five years with a cast of a thousand ambulance chasing lawyers,
Boris had been pushing for driverless Tube trains, that's a long way off and liked to be resisted by many
Firstly, Tramlink is operated by First Group under contract.
BUT, as we all know, all computerised systems are vulnerable to hacking and outside interference as well as machine malfunction .. remember HAL from 2001 ? .. be VERY afraid
Nothing is perfect & unfortunately these incidents will always occur, no matter how much we try to mitigate against them
RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their families
5 dead, 50 injured, Blimey
Something like what we've seen today is unprecedented on the trams I would imagine.
This will be why the driver was arrested.
@Lincsaddick I'm sure that per passenger mile trams are an awful lot safer than cars but there will always be accidents considering they're on the road. That's what makes today so shocking/seemingly avoidable.
One of the points of concern we raised was just how quiet the trams were, an elderly woman had recently been killed directly opposite the station while crossing the tracks to get to the opposite platform. Apparently she looked left and saw a tram approaching and stepped onto the tracks where she was hit by a tram coming from the opposite side, she simply never heard it approaching. Despite the best efforts of ourselves and London ambulance service including paramedics from the helicopter service she died.
When we asked if trams could be fitted with some sort of device that could be heard when they were approaching tram stops we were told that the trams were designed to be as quite as possible so as not to disturb local residents who lived nearby. So basically it is down to the individual person crossing to look both ways.
Another time we were called to an incident where a tram had hit a bus and spun the bus round like a toy fortunately no fatalities.
At least four occasions i attended incidents where car's collided with a tram these did involve fatalities.
As to weather the trams are safer now i believe that they are but wherever you have a system that allows the public to walk across the tracks and for traffic to cross the tracks you will always have the potential for accident I'm afraid