So @cafcfan, this is very informative. I kind of knew that the NV stuff needs to be drunk young. But is there anything on a typical NV label that tells you which year it was released?
Your remark that even vintages need to be drunk youngish has slightly alarmed me. I'm nursing two bottles of expensive stuff, which according to Cellar Tracker should still be good now, but according to you, I'm ten years or so too late (1999 Bollinger la Grande Annee, and 2004 Perrier-Jouet Belle Epoque) I'll be well pissed off if I have nursed them past their best as they are the two most valuable bottles in my cellar!
Then you have more bad news with the wine cooler thingy. So we have a wine room, but it is not fully underground, and so the temperature does vary a bit by up to 10 degreesC from winter to summer, although it is suitably dark. For the valuable bottles I have a small (16 bottle) cooler. What do you reckon? I hope that the benefit of them being in a constant temperature outweights the vibration issue, which i never knew of before.
They will be completely fucked mate, send them to me and I will dispose of them for no charge ;-)
Bollinger Grand Annee is released too young to drink. In wine terms that 1999 should be absolutely banging. If I remember rightly their more expensive vintage called RD, is the same wine but recently disgorged before release and for me that needs 15-20 odd years after vintage before I'd even think of touching it. I should say I like the tertiary notes of earthy mushrooms so am not bothered if champagne goes a little over the hill........
Having said all this Cellar Tracker is always worth checking out to see what people are saying about vintages. People seem to be saying the 1999 is a vintage that's just over it's peak. Should still be great though:
The two Perriers are lighter in style, but your Belle Epoque comes from one of the best champagne vintages and should be perfect to drink now.
Storing champagne's not so delicate an issue as still wines. They have their in bottle anerobic protection that slows maturation. Avoid extreme heat and cold, but that temperature variation can be more fluctuating for champagne.
Some enlightened houses or owner growers will put a disgorgement date on the bottle. Of the Houses that do this, most of their NVs will last longer than 3 years. Even some mainstream houses like Lanson do this. Once they've disgorged most NVs will have been sent to retailers within months.
Of course all this is a matter of taste. But bigger and fuller styles like Bollinger, many experts would encourage you to store their NVs for 2-3 years before drinking. Matthew Jukes used to mention he keeps his Pol Roger NV for 3 years before drinking.
Definitely as a general rule drink your NVs soon after you buy them. Having said that I've stored £10 champagne from Asda for 3 years and it was much more integrated and softer. Champagne has perfected their winemaking over 350 years to manage the problems of growing in an extremely marginal region for winemaking. There's very little really shitly made champagne around. There's also very little big house champagne worth it's retail price. That's why I mainly drink Cava. Grand Annee is one of the few vintage champagnes from mainstream houses that is well worth it's price point. Enjoy!
So @cafcfan, this is very informative. I kind of knew that the NV stuff needs to be drunk young. But is there anything on a typical NV label that tells you which year it was released?
Your remark that even vintages need to be drunk youngish has slightly alarmed me. I'm nursing two bottles of expensive stuff, which according to Cellar Tracker should still be good now, but according to you, I'm ten years or so too late (1999 Bollinger la Grande Annee, and 2004 Perrier-Jouet Belle Epoque) I'll be well pissed off if I have nursed them past their best as they are the two most valuable bottles in my cellar!
Then you have more bad news with the wine cooler thingy. So we have a wine room, but it is not fully underground, and so the temperature does vary a bit by up to 10 degreesC from winter to summer, although it is suitably dark. For the valuable bottles I have a small (16 bottle) cooler. What do you reckon? I hope that the benefit of them being in a constant temperature outweights the vibration issue, which i never knew of before.
Both will be fine. I'm a fan of the Belle Epoque but it's been a while since I've drunk one! And Pol Roger is always good. I'm currently experimenting with some Cremant which got good reviews but found it somewhat lacking. Otherwise I've been drinking English sparkling mostly. I have a local vineyard which has just released it's first batch from 2015. I'm going to give it a go. But at £24 it's not cheap.
Who is it? When you consider the cost of growing and producing wine here £25 is very competitively priced. Probably of the bigger growers only Denbies could operate at that price point. If it's good it's well worth it.
Nyetimber was cracking value when it only produced vintage. Now it starts at NV the price is almost justifiable, but places their vintage offerings at the equivalent price of premium Champagne Houses.
Who is it? When you consider the cost of growing and producing wine here £25 is very competitively priced. Probably of the bigger growers only Denbies could operate at that price point. If it's good it's well worth it.
Nyetimber was cracking value when it only produced vintage. Now it starts at NV the price is almost justifiable, but places their vintage offerings at the equivalent price of premium Champagne Houses.
I'm a fan of English sparklers too, an ambassador even, but my problem is getting hold of it out here. The only web biz in the UK that were ready to deliver to Prague was a very enterprising young lady who had set up a little biz to champion the vineyards, but sadly a quick check shows her web is no longer operating. Lack of scale to make it a biz for her, I guess. Anyway, couple of years back I took a bottle of Nyetimber Classic Cuvee (NV) with me to Bulgaria for a gathering of old friends who know a lot more about wine than I do, and organised a blind taste test against a bottle of Lanson I picked up at duty free. The Nyetimber crushed it, 6-2, and everyone was suitably gobsmacked. And I thought that is a very neat inversion of the old UK TV spots for Bulgarian wine in the early 90s where an English dinner party host does the same thing and when they've all guessed wrong about the wine and he tells them where it's from, they all turn round in unison and horror and go "Bulgaria????"
Who is it? When you consider the cost of growing and producing wine here £25 is very competitively priced. Probably of the bigger growers only Denbies could operate at that price point. If it's good it's well worth it.
Nyetimber was cracking value when it only produced vintage. Now it starts at NV the price is almost justifiable, but places their vintage offerings at the equivalent price of premium Champagne Houses.
It was always mentioned in Wine training, and indeed in Jancis Robinson's books, that Bulgaria sold the most wine bottles in the 80's in the UK. What's forgotten about that fact is that the amount of bottles exported from Bulgaria in the 80's far exceeded what the country could produce. The wine was predominately South African just traded through Bulgaria to avoid Apartheid sanctions. By the early 90's South Africa production supposedly tripled within a couple of vintages.
If like me you don't know too much about wine but like drinking it the Vivino app is brilliant.
Take a pic of the label and it looks it up, gives you a rating, price, what foods to pair it with and reviews. You can also buy the wine directly through the app but i use it as more of a wine encyclopedia.
I've been a fan of Carr Taylor wine for a while, their 1066 is the only white wine at a sensible price I'll drink. Its perfectly balanced, I normally find white wine for around a tenner way too sweet and heartburny after a glass but this stuff is so drinkable its dangerous
So @cafcfan, this is very informative. I kind of knew that the NV stuff needs to be drunk young. But is there anything on a typical NV label that tells you which year it was released?
Your remark that even vintages need to be drunk youngish has slightly alarmed me. I'm nursing two bottles of expensive stuff, which according to Cellar Tracker should still be good now, but according to you, I'm ten years or so too late (1999 Bollinger la Grande Annee, and 2004 Perrier-Jouet Belle Epoque) I'll be well pissed off if I have nursed them past their best as they are the two most valuable bottles in my cellar!
Then you have more bad news with the wine cooler thingy. So we have a wine room, but it is not fully underground, and so the temperature does vary a bit by up to 10 degreesC from winter to summer, although it is suitably dark. For the valuable bottles I have a small (16 bottle) cooler. What do you reckon? I hope that the benefit of them being in a constant temperature outweights the vibration issue, which i never knew of before.
Both will be fine. I'm a fan of the Belle Epoque but it's been a while since I've drunk one! And Pol Roger is always good. I'm currently experimenting with some Cremant which got good reviews but found it somewhat lacking. Otherwise I've been drinking English sparkling mostly. I have a local vineyard which has just released it's first batch from 2015. I'm going to give it a go. But at £24 it's not cheap.
What’s the name of the local vineyard you mention?
So @cafcfan, this is very informative. I kind of knew that the NV stuff needs to be drunk young. But is there anything on a typical NV label that tells you which year it was released?
Your remark that even vintages need to be drunk youngish has slightly alarmed me. I'm nursing two bottles of expensive stuff, which according to Cellar Tracker should still be good now, but according to you, I'm ten years or so too late (1999 Bollinger la Grande Annee, and 2004 Perrier-Jouet Belle Epoque) I'll be well pissed off if I have nursed them past their best as they are the two most valuable bottles in my cellar!
Then you have more bad news with the wine cooler thingy. So we have a wine room, but it is not fully underground, and so the temperature does vary a bit by up to 10 degreesC from winter to summer, although it is suitably dark. For the valuable bottles I have a small (16 bottle) cooler. What do you reckon? I hope that the benefit of them being in a constant temperature outweights the vibration issue, which i never knew of before.
Both will be fine. I'm a fan of the Belle Epoque but it's been a while since I've drunk one! And Pol Roger is always good. I'm currently experimenting with some Cremant which got good reviews but found it somewhat lacking. Otherwise I've been drinking English sparkling mostly. I have a local vineyard which has just released it's first batch from 2015. I'm going to give it a go. But at £24 it's not cheap.
What’s the name of the local vineyard you mention?
See message above for web site but it's Galleywood Vineyard.
If like me you don't know too much about wine but like drinking it the Vivino app is brilliant.
Take a pic of the label and it looks it up, gives you a rating, price, what foods to pair it with and reviews. You can also buy the wine directly through the app but i use it as more of a wine encyclopedia.
Be interesting to follow a few wine snobs, sorry experts in here on Vivino.
For locals, check out the Mount Vineyard in Shoreham. Their sparkling white is lovely.
Put the beers & champagne in the fridge tonight... Tomorrow is going to be a lovely day
Unless I have been sold down the river, which I don’t think I have..
My champagne is fast becoming vintage champagne it’s been in the fridge so long.
Fingers crossed!
At last. Something about which I am ITK! Just for the sake of clarity (and to avoid disappointment) you should know that NV champagne is a blend of several years and never becomes vintage champagne. Instead it just goes off. Drink within maybe 3 years of getting it. ( So probably less time than the average Charlton takeover thread runs for.)
Even the vintage stuff should be drunk within 5-10 years of release. NV should also never be kept in a fridge but just put there a day or two before use. Indeed, no wine gets on well with vibrations. That's why a cellar is better than a wine cooler thingy. Sadly, I have a wine cooler thingy.
Before I had the foggiest idea about wine, I had a bottle of NV champagne from my grandparents’ house. They’d had it for several years and I saved if for a further view years and then opened it to celebrate our promotion in 1986. Unpleasant vinegar would be the best description.
It was always mentioned in Wine training, and indeed in Jancis Robinson's books, that Bulgaria sold the most wine bottles in the 80's in the UK. What's forgotten about that fact is that the amount of bottles exported from Bulgaria in the 80's far exceeded what the country could produce. The wine was predominately South African just traded through Bulgaria to avoid Apartheid sanctions. By the early 90's South Africa production supposedly tripled within a couple of vintages.
Blimey, I have not heard that before, but it certainly sounds plausible. But they did and do have some decent stuff, mainly full bodied reds that go well with autumn casseroles or eastern Med food, and they have an indigenous red grape, Mavrud. If you come across a Bulgarian red that picks up good reviews from respected reviewers, it will be good value for money.
Interesting! I spent quite a lot of money on bulgarian cabernet sauvignon in the 80s. Waitrose used to do it for £3.99, which rosé to £4.99 after a couple of years when people realised how good it was.
Interesting! I spent quite a lot of money on bulgarian cabernet sauvignon in the 80s. Waitrose used to do it for £3.99, which rosé to £4.99 after a couple of years when people realised how good it was.
Yes, very interesting (although I don't think there were sactions against South African wine so presumably it was for commercial/PR reasons). I also remember when I first started being interested in wine c.1990 goes to Sainsburys and getting Bulgarian and Romanian wines for £2.99 which I thought at the time were great.
Visited this place when in Rye earlier in the summer... Great place and ended up coming away £300 or so lighter, but a couple of cases heavier. The pinot noir is genuinely bloomin superb....I bought a selection of their sparkling...it's not really my thing, but my wife enjoyed them, so am going to say that they were good too...
M&S have stores in Prague, which is great, and generally they train the store staff to a high level. however the local Czech management has always sounded a bit below par from what I have learnt (and I knew a quite senior marketing guy there).
I bought 11 bottles, assuming that I'd get 25% on all bottles. I only got it on 6!! and who knows how the six were selected for discount. When I initially complained the CRM manager said that if I had bought another bottle I would have got the 25% on all, and went on to blame the store staff for not pointing it out to me. That really pissed me off, so I told them that if this were to happen in the UK they'd be breaking the law, and if they did not agree that it is misleading I would speak to their bosses in London. They have been prevaricating ever since, I've just given them one more week.
It also just occurred to me that even if I didn't get the full discount on all 11, I should certainly have got 15% on bottles 6-9. I don't think i did; I don't have the receipt now but they have confirmed they can check my loyalty card records.
I can't get my mind around how a "marketing" person with half a brain would set it up this way. Surely they have to be delighted if the promotion makes me buy 11 bottles rather than just six, why would they want to scam such a customer, especially a loyalty card member? I told them, this is not the M&S way.
I think you mean 'bottles 7-9', but yes, quite right. Usually these discounts kick in once you buy a minimum number, and apply to all further bottles bought in the same transaction. So, in this case, buy 3,4 or 5 bottles and get 15% off, buy 6 or more and get 25% off is what I would have assumed. If they're going to apply it the way they did then I would expect them to apply it to the most expensive bottles, but I'll bet the discount has just gone to the first 6 through the till.
M&S have stores in Prague, which is great, and generally they train the store staff to a high level. however the local Czech management has always sounded a bit below par from what I have learnt (and I knew a quite senior marketing guy there).
I bought 11 bottles, assuming that I'd get 25% on all bottles. I only got it on 6!! and who knows how the six were selected for discount. When I initially complained the CRM manager said that if I had bought another bottle I would have got the 25% on all, and went on to blame the store staff for not pointing it out to me. That really pissed me off, so I told them that if this were to happen in the UK they'd be breaking the law, and if they did not agree that it is misleading I would speak to their bosses in London. They have been prevaricating ever since, I've just given them one more week.
It also just occurred to me that even if I didn't get the full discount on all 11, I should certainly have got 15% on bottles 6-9. I don't think i did; I don't have the receipt now but they have confirmed they can check my loyalty card records.
I can't get my mind around how a "marketing" person with half a brain would set it up this way. Surely they have to be delighted if the promotion makes me buy 11 bottles rather than just six, why would they want to scam such a customer, especially a loyalty card member? I told them, this is not the M&S way.
I agree you should have got the discount on all 11 bottles unless it was one type of wine with a discount on a case of six.
The good news is though, you are not an OCD sufferer, no self respecting obsessive compulsive would have bought anything in multiples of eleven
Had a 2002 William Fevre Montee de Tonnerre the other night. Lovely. I really enjoy dry, mineral-y whites. Think I will explore Tonnerre some more.
Anyone tried the Clos Apalta? Had a glass a few weeks ago and it was stunning. Can see why it's a superstar.
My usual go-to weeknight drinks are a rioja like the Vina Tondonia (classic) or Vina Ardanza, or for whites, I also love the Jordan Barrel-Fermented Chardonnay.
Had a 2002 William Fevre Montee de Tonnerre the other night. Lovely. I really enjoy dry, mineral-y whites. Think I will explore Tonnerre some more.
Anyone tried the Clos Apalta? Had a glass a few weeks ago and it was stunning. Can see why it's a superstar.
My usual go-to weeknight drinks are a rioja like the Vina Tondonia (classic) or Vina Ardanza, or for whites, I also love the Jordan Barrel-Fermented Chardonnay.
We have similar tastes - William Fevre and Rioja Alta are among my favourite producers. You must have a bit more money to spend on wine than me though - an Ardanza (had a 2010 last week and was superb) or a Fevre is a once a week treats for me.
Had a 2002 William Fevre Montee de Tonnerre the other night. Lovely. I really enjoy dry, mineral-y whites. Think I will explore Tonnerre some more.
Anyone tried the Clos Apalta? Had a glass a few weeks ago and it was stunning. Can see why it's a superstar.
My usual go-to weeknight drinks are a rioja like the Vina Tondonia (classic) or Vina Ardanza, or for whites, I also love the Jordan Barrel-Fermented Chardonnay.
We have similar tastes - William Fevre and Rioja Alta are among my favourite producers. You must have a bit more money to spend on wine than me though - an Ardanza (had a 2010 last week and was superb) or a Fevre is a once a week treats for me.
The Fevre was at my birthday dinner so was definitely a treat.
I meant Alberdi, not Ardanza! I do love an Ardanza but I'm definitely not cracking one open on a Tuesday night.
Good to know we have similar tastes. What other producers are you into?
Had a 2002 William Fevre Montee de Tonnerre the other night. Lovely. I really enjoy dry, mineral-y whites. Think I will explore Tonnerre some more.
Anyone tried the Clos Apalta? Had a glass a few weeks ago and it was stunning. Can see why it's a superstar.
My usual go-to weeknight drinks are a rioja like the Vina Tondonia (classic) or Vina Ardanza, or for whites, I also love the Jordan Barrel-Fermented Chardonnay.
We have similar tastes - William Fevre and Rioja Alta are among my favourite producers. You must have a bit more money to spend on wine than me though - an Ardanza (had a 2010 last week and was superb) or a Fevre is a once a week treats for me.
The Fevre was at my birthday dinner so was definitely a treat.
I meant Alberdi, not Ardanza! I do love an Ardanza but I'm definitely not cracking one open on a Tuesday night.
Good to know we have similar tastes. What other producers are you into?
Off the top of my head, Jossmeyer and Trimbach for Alsatian Riesling and Gewurz, Te Mata for Kiwi PN and SB, Muga for a more traditional style of Rioja (I also get CUNE and Villa Real sometimes but haven't really tried much Lopez de Hereida). Gaillard in Rhone is a regular buy en primeur. Burgundy and Bordeeaux are just stupid expensive these days but I do usually get a few half cases of Beaumont, Angludet and a few others in good years. About 90% of my wine buying is through the Wine Society - so I kinda restrict myself a bit.
The 2002 Fevre Tonnerre must have been a treat. I drink a fair bit of the 2015 and 2016 which is excellent.
Viña Ardanza 2017 is superb. Have you guys tried any white Rioja’s? I’ve just come across them and my current go to is the La Bastid.
Will watch out for it. My wife is from the Basque country but tends to prefer lighter, citrussy Spanish whites - Godello in particular - so we haven't explored an awful lot of white rioja.
Comments
Having said all this Cellar Tracker is always worth checking out to see what people are saying about vintages. People seem to be saying the 1999 is a vintage that's just over it's peak. Should still be great though:
https://www.cellartracker.com/m/wines/210947
The two Perriers are lighter in style, but your Belle Epoque comes from one of the best champagne vintages and should be perfect to drink now.
Storing champagne's not so delicate an issue as still wines. They have their in bottle anerobic protection that slows maturation. Avoid extreme heat and cold, but that temperature variation can be more fluctuating for champagne.
Some enlightened houses or owner growers will put a disgorgement date on the bottle. Of the Houses that do this, most of their NVs will last longer than 3 years. Even some mainstream houses like Lanson do this. Once they've disgorged most NVs will have been sent to retailers within months.
Of course all this is a matter of taste. But bigger and fuller styles like Bollinger, many experts would encourage you to store their NVs for 2-3 years before drinking. Matthew Jukes used to mention he keeps his Pol Roger NV for 3 years before drinking.
Definitely as a general rule drink your NVs soon after you buy them. Having said that I've stored £10 champagne from Asda for 3 years and it was much more integrated and softer. Champagne has perfected their winemaking over 350 years to manage the problems of growing in an extremely marginal region for winemaking. There's very little really shitly made champagne around. There's also very little big house champagne worth it's retail price. That's why I mainly drink Cava. Grand Annee is one of the few vintage champagnes from mainstream houses that is well worth it's price point. Enjoy!
Nyetimber was cracking value when it only produced vintage. Now it starts at NV the price is almost justifiable, but places their vintage offerings at the equivalent price of premium Champagne Houses.
There is also a link to a video of Oz Clarke reviewing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOkULzLkido&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3b56k7W3oEUXmGetUFIEDn_OPI6wjVPOTKj3_aMHNCkp0F2yrYmVBmbIE
Take a pic of the label and it looks it up, gives you a rating, price, what foods to pair it with and reviews. You can also buy the wine directly through the app but i use it as more of a wine encyclopedia.
I spent quite a lot of money on bulgarian cabernet sauvignon in the 80s. Waitrose used to do it for £3.99, which rosé to £4.99 after a couple of years when people realised how good it was.
Suppose you get an email from M&S about a special wine promotion...
The deal is written as follows :
15% off when you buy three bottles. 25% off when you buy 6 bottles
There are no other "small print" conditions to the deal
So my question is, what discount would you expect if you buy
a) 12 bottles?
b) 11 bottles?
I thank you in advance, there is a story behind this which I'll tell once I get a few replies.
https://www.charlespalmer-vineyards.co.uk/
M&S have stores in Prague, which is great, and generally they train the store staff to a high level. however the local Czech management has always sounded a bit below par from what I have learnt (and I knew a quite senior marketing guy there).
I bought 11 bottles, assuming that I'd get 25% on all bottles. I only got it on 6!! and who knows how the six were selected for discount. When I initially complained the CRM manager said that if I had bought another bottle I would have got the 25% on all, and went on to blame the store staff for not pointing it out to me. That really pissed me off, so I told them that if this were to happen in the UK they'd be breaking the law, and if they did not agree that it is misleading I would speak to their bosses in London. They have been prevaricating ever since, I've just given them one more week.
It also just occurred to me that even if I didn't get the full discount on all 11, I should certainly have got 15% on bottles 6-9. I don't think i did; I don't have the receipt now but they have confirmed they can check my loyalty card records.
I can't get my mind around how a "marketing" person with half a brain would set it up this way. Surely they have to be delighted if the promotion makes me buy 11 bottles rather than just six, why would they want to scam such a customer, especially a loyalty card member? I told them, this is not the M&S way.
Usually these discounts kick in once you buy a minimum number, and apply to all further bottles bought in the same transaction.
So, in this case, buy 3,4 or 5 bottles and get 15% off, buy 6 or more and get 25% off is what I would have assumed.
If they're going to apply it the way they did then I would expect them to apply it to the most expensive bottles, but I'll bet the discount has just gone to the first 6 through the till.
The good news is though, you are not an OCD sufferer, no self respecting obsessive compulsive would have bought anything in multiples of eleven
Anyone tried the Clos Apalta? Had a glass a few weeks ago and it was stunning. Can see why it's a superstar.
My usual go-to weeknight drinks are a rioja like the Vina Tondonia (classic) or Vina Ardanza, or for whites, I also love the Jordan Barrel-Fermented Chardonnay.
I meant Alberdi, not Ardanza! I do love an Ardanza but I'm definitely not cracking one open on a Tuesday night.
Good to know we have similar tastes. What other producers are you into?
The 2002 Fevre Tonnerre must have been a treat. I drink a fair bit of the 2015 and 2016 which is excellent.