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The General Election - June 8th 2017

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  • Meanwhile for those getting excited about the Labour poll surge, and I must admit I sort of was, this blogpost about canvassing figures makes sober reading . I fear it is on the money. It also specifically mentions Eltham as being difficult for Labour. Bummer. Vote Clive Efford!
  • Just a comment that may be of interest, Eltham tipped to swing to conservative for the first time since early 90s.
  • edited June 2017

    Meanwhile for those getting excited about the Labour poll surge, and I must admit I sort of was, this blogpost about canvassing figures makes sober reading . I fear it is on the money. It also specifically mentions Eltham as being difficult for Labour. Bummer. Vote Clive Efford!

    That is a really depressing read. Corbyn and his momentum mates will probably say they lost because the manifesto was not left wing enough. Bunch of deluded wankers. For the sake of the future of this country I hope the people currently running the Labour Party are quickly purged and replaced by new leaders who will, along with the country's leading economists and business leaders, fight against Brexit every single day for the next two years.
  • Just a comment that may be of interest, Eltham tipped to swing to conservative for the first time since early 90s.

    Correct. So all those who appreciate a really hard working community MP, and one of the few who works hard for football fans too, get out and vote Efford, and get your kids to vote too. On the WhatsApp to my sister right now!

  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
  • @Rob7Lee

    In the context of university fees, has anyone seriously examined their cost bases? European unis don't generally charge anything like 9k a year even to foreign students. Are we seriously suggesting our bog standard unis are so much better than their equivs. in say the Netherlands? That's the trouble with the island mentality. If we spent more time comparing these issues with how our European friends do things, instead of turning our backs on them, we would have some serious ammunition with which to interrogate our politicians.

    To answer your question, where is the money coming from, my response is, how do the Scandis, Germany the Netherlands etc afford it? These countries are not profligate bankrupt basket cases, are they? And they don't seem to have a social care crisis like we do either.

    Increasingly I look at the UK, and ask myself, where does all the money go?

    I don't know know what other European universities charge, I don't know but assume in this country our government set the levels since all seem to charge the same?

    Maybe I look at finances too simply, to me if there is a new and ongoing cost means it needs new funding, on the basis that at the moment we don't have a surplus means you need to raise that money from somewhere as we don't currently have it.

    It's back to the age old question of how much are we all prepared to pay and for what? I don't believe the Labour manifesto pledges will raise anywhere near the money they believe, we can still have all of that but you probably need to increase taxes considerably more (not just personal tax but largely).

    We can 'have' what they have in respect of these countries, but my understanding is they in the main all pay considerably more in taxation, every single person.

    Denmark for instance, although it does have a very complex tax system. Everyone pays 8% tax BEFORE income tax on every single penny, they then have a very low personal allowance (circa £4k). Local Income tax varies depending where you are but is circa 23% to 28%, there is a state income tax ranging from 6 - 21%, a municipal tax ranging from 23-28% and finally a state tax of 8-15% - oh and the health tax which is slowly being merged with one of the other taxes. Land tax that averages 3.5%.

    VAT is 25%, members of the church pay a tax, etc etc.

    So are we all happy to pay somewhere in the region of 45-50% in income related taxes (they cap it at just over 50% I think) plus a land tax? Are those on minimum or a low wage happy to pay 8% tax on everything and a further amount above £4k probably around 30-35%?

    Of course the UK can afford all those things if we want, but in my view we are kidding ourselves if you think that can be done on a 0/20/40% tax and 45-50% on the top 5%. We'd need nearer the denmark model where everyone pays income taxes, the lower earners probably on average over 30% of their wages and higher earners 45%.
  • That Cassetteboy video is a masterpiece.
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  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
    No, the usual suspects are with you.

    Do you also like Boris Johnson for gifting West Ham a stadium with your UK taxpayers money which poses a long term threat to CAFC?



  • Meanwhile for those getting excited about the Labour poll surge, and I must admit I sort of was, this blogpost about canvassing figures makes sober reading . I fear it is on the money. It also specifically mentions Eltham as being difficult for Labour. Bummer. Vote Clive Efford!

    That is a really depressing read. Corbyn and his momentum mates will probably say they lost because the manifesto was not left wing enough. Bunch of deluded wankers. For the sake of the future of this country I hope the people currently running the Labour Party are quickly purged and replaced by new leaders who will, along with the country's leading economists and business leaders, fight against Brexit every single day for the next two years.
    There's an overhaul coming....watch this space
  • Apprenticeships are one area of Tory success.

    “We have already delivered 2.2 million new apprenticeships over the last five years. Over the next five years we will deliver three million more and ensure they deliver the skills employers need”

    Conservative Party manifesto, 2015.

    BBC Reality Check
    The claim: Since 2010, the government has revived the culture of apprenticeships by creating two million new places and will create another three million by 2020.
    Reality Check verdict: There were not two but nearly two-and-a-half million new apprenticeships created in England under the coalition government between 2010-11 and 2014-2015.
    Under the Conservative government in 2015-16, there were 509,400 new apprenticeships in England, 9,500 more than the previous year.
    The report points out that the growth has been driven by an increase in the number of apprenticeships available to people aged 25 and over, who took 44% of all new available spaces in 2015-16. The number of women starting apprenticeships has been higher than men in every year in that period. In 2015-16, women started 53% of apprenticeships and men 47%.
    In 2015/16, the top three sectors, which made up 71% of new apprenticeships, were in three categories: business, administration and law; health, public service and care; and retail and commercial enterprises.
  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
    No, the usual suspects are with you.

    Do you also like Boris Johnson for gifting West Ham a stadium with your UK taxpayers money which poses a long term threat to CAFC?




    I like him more than Corbyn, Abbott and Thornberry.

    How many countries do you pay tax in Prague?
  • @Rob7Lee

    Or to look at it the other way, is the UK population going to continue to watch as the NHS falls apart, kids leave Uni saddled with debt (and no way of finding a place of their own), old people suffer indignity and worse as the care system collapses, the police and security system buckles while trying to deal with the terrorist threat; and yet still allows itself to be led into a frothing rage by the Daily Mail when some hapless politician suggests that there might need to be a tax rise to help fix these things?
  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
    No, the usual suspects are with you.

    Do you also like Boris Johnson for gifting West Ham a stadium with your UK taxpayers money which poses a long term threat to CAFC?



    Usual suspects or not Boris Johnson is better than Diane Abbot.

    As for gifting West ham a stadium I am 100 % on your side Prague
  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
    No, the usual suspects are with you.

    Do you also like Boris Johnson for gifting West Ham a stadium with your UK taxpayers money which poses a long term threat to CAFC?




    I like him more than Corbyn, Abbott and Thornberry.

    How many countries do you pay tax in Prague?
    Two.

    And like Johnson, you didn't answer the question.

  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
    No, the usual suspects are with you.

    Do you also like Boris Johnson for gifting West Ham a stadium with your UK taxpayers money which poses a long term threat to CAFC?




    I like him more than Corbyn, Abbott and Thornberry.

    How many countries do you pay tax in Prague?
    Two.

    And like Johnson, you didn't answer the question.

    Sorry, I didn't know it was compulsory that I answer your questions mate.

    Johnson could send Charlton into oblivion and touch up my dog, I'd still prefer him in office rather than the alternative.
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  • Boris Johnson: the poster boy for the hard of thinking.
  • Hypothetical question: would (or should) Labour do a deal with the SNP if there was a hung parliament?

    Soft Brexit in return for abandoning another independence referendum?
  • Chizz said:

    Boris Johnson: the poster boy for the hard of thinking.

    You're missing the point mate
  • micks1950 said:
    WOW! This bit was particularly illuminating:

    Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams's favourite past-time is bouncing around on a trampoline while naked. And often with his dog, who apparently can do back flips.

    Illuminating in that it tells us about the current state of illiteracy at the BBC. You're discussing the present tense, so it's "Pass Time" you idiots. It would only be "Past Time" if it was something he used to enjoy, but not any longer. Sort them out, Big Rob!
  • Hypothetical question: would (or should) Labour do a deal with the SNP if there was a hung parliament?

    Soft Brexit in return for abandoning another independence referendum?

    Basically a coalition with the SNP is the only way Corbyn will get into number 10 as he obviously isn't getting a majority.

    Any Labour supporter here would surely say yes?
  • Chizz said:
    Is it only me who likes Boris more after watching that?

    Cheers Chizz
    No, the usual suspects are with you.

    Do you also like Boris Johnson for gifting West Ham a stadium with your UK taxpayers money which poses a long term threat to CAFC?




    I like him more than Corbyn, Abbott and Thornberry.

    How many countries do you pay tax in Prague?
    Two.

    And like Johnson, you didn't answer the question.

    Sorry, I didn't know it was compulsory that I answer your questions mate.

    Johnson could send Charlton into oblivion and touch up my dog, I'd still prefer him in office rather than the alternative.
    I didn't say it was compulsory. But I answered yours. It's, you know, courtesy. Old British value, you know?

    Did you also know that it's possible to have more politicians of integrity,in any party? It happens when the citizens don't give a free pass to the assholes and villains just because they're a good laugh on HIGNFY.


  • edited June 2017

    Hypothetical question: would (or should) Labour do a deal with the SNP if there was a hung parliament?

    Soft Brexit in return for abandoning another independence referendum?

    Yes. But, if the Tories are unable to win a majority it means the mandate for Brexit has been lost (that is what May said the election was about) and the new coalition government should agree to revoke article 50 and then we can all forget about this sorry Brexit nightmare fiasco.
  • @Rob7Lee

    Or to look at it the other way, is the UK population going to continue to watch as the NHS falls apart, kids leave Uni saddled with debt (and no way of finding a place of their own), old people suffer indignity and worse as the care system collapses, the police and security system buckles while trying to deal with the terrorist threat; and yet still allows itself to be led into a frothing rage by the Daily Mail when some hapless politician suggests that there might need to be a tax rise to help fix these things?

    I don't think we are disagreeing in the main Prague, but neither of our main parties have a clue how or what to do or more likely it's all about getting elected and they won't say things unpalatable to their audiences. Can you imagine in labour strongholds if they had proposed the Denmark model, i.e. you pay income taxes on nearly every penny ranging from 35-55%? Plus anything you buy with whats left will cost 5% more (assuming it attracts VAT).

    And before someone trots out the nurses visiting food banks..... A nurse in Denmark is paid more than the UK, around £35,000. However they will pay over 40% of their total salary in income tax so would net a similar amount to a UK nurse (19-20k).

    We all have an honest decision to make (or maybe we don't), are we all prepared to receive less in our pay packets to have a better NHS, Police, State etc etc........... i think sadly if any party actually put that forward they'd get no where near being elected as we've built a society of expectation and of someone else paying for it, or what we used to refer to as 'the never never'.

    The one bit we may disagree on is property, i'm not saying it's easy but buying your first property never has been and has always meant sacrifices, whether that be 2nd jobs 5-6 nights a week like I did, or renting a room in a shared house for the first few years of marriage and then moving out of Eltham to Rainham in Kent like my parents did (who both worked in the city).

    Are people really saying 2 x young city workers couldn't afford to buy an average semi in Rainham Kent at circa £275k if they saved up for 5 years? Or is it they still want to go out at least 3 nights a week, eat out, have a nice car, contract mobile phone, 50" TV and a sky subscription - and also buy a pad in an expensive part of the UK (London). I've lost count of the times I've had this conversation with people who work for me, who when I sit them down and go through their expenditure they don't see any issue (only entitlement) of spending 50% of their salaries (say £35k) on new cars on HP, going out/eating out, spending £10 in pret at lunch, mobile phones, 2 weeks in the sun, an uber account etc etc. It's simply a matter of priorities, buy an old banger or get the bus, restrict yourself to a pay as you go phone, get Freeview not Sky, stay in more, make a packed lunch and don't buy 3 coffees a day in Starbucks!
  • To return to the starting point, a 24 point lead in the polls, a need to call a pre brexit election because of political sabotage otherwise, even a need to validate Theresa May as Prime Minister, would a one seat majority do the trick (it is 12 at the moment)? In order to justify this election would maintaining a 12 seat majority do the trick also?
    The polls at the start suggested a majority north of 140 seats (sadly I think that is the real, and the doomsday possibility), so does Theresa May need to get, lets be generous, a 100 seat majority to achieve her stated aim?
    Is there a realistic line to reach? If the majority increases from 12 seats to 32 would that mean she has actually lost power and influence even with a bigger majority? In a 30 odd seat majority, is it legitimate to ask why we have had to endure all this malarkey?
    Of course a Tory win also risks a re adjustment in the opposition that might come back strongly when crushing austerity powers on, let alone if there is a 'no deal' brexit....or even if there is a deal, but such a supine one that the far right react with venom?
    I will stick my neck out and suggest that a 30 seat majority means that Theresa May has not got the power she thinks she has, a 70 seat majority can be explained away as taking on a weak and shattered Labour party, I think that the Tories need about a 100 seat majority to get through this Election properly, but that will bring on a stronger opposition in the future, coupled with the huge risk of brexit failure to hang round their necks.
    I think any kind of hung Parliament is as likely as Gibraltar winning the next Euro's.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!