Absolutely ridiculous for any Labour politician to be voting against the whip at this stage.
Let Brexit negotiations play out, let the tide turn and then push for it. The Tories are a mess, don't give the impression that you are as well.
But why whip on this particular amendment? Just let them vote their conscience, you don't need to sack anybody, and thus create a story of division in the Labour party that the right wing press jumps on.
Why did the amendment have to mention Grenfell and recent terror attacks. This vote was all about Labour trying to get one up on Tory's and the Tory's not letting Labour get one up on them. Lose Lose for the country and politics in general.
The Tory's downfall (on this subject, there are many others to come no doubt) will be when the independent report comes out with it's recommendations. My understanding is despite the pay freeze the report will recommend a level regardless. If the Tory's don't take heed of that then they are even bigger fools than I think right now.
As i've said previously, 'public sector' is all well and good, but that makes up around 17% of the working population of this country. If any party was really for making the lives of those less fortunate/lower paid (or however you wish to describe it) better then they'd be looking at doing something for all of them, not try to score political points or carry favour with the public.
I've no doubt a lot of the public sector deserve to earn more, but so do many, probably more (due to the 83/17% split), in the private sector, what about them? 'For the many not the few' yer right.
I've never been so engaged in politics but also never been so saddened as to what a complete joke they all are. The quicker we get rid of both May & Corbyn the better.
Chop chop @bobmunro with @cobbles running your campaign you've my vote, i'll even register in your constituency so that I can vote for you even if I have to buy a flat there (we can rent it to @cabbles sorry cobbles, to run the campaign from).
That 17% you mention above is the lowest since comparable ecords began in 1999. In the last five years it has dropped from 21%. That means far less people providing public services as well as them experiencing stagnant wages.
Not only does that inevitably affect the quality of frontline services but it's a lot less spending in the economy. That is just one factor in the failure to boost aggregate demand. Another is the failure to take advantage of the lowest interest rates in living memory with the government building "stuff". Or lending to those who will - like councils / housing associations.
The leave campaign last year might have blamed immigrants and Brussels but their main focus was the poor quality of public services.
Cutting the headcount and budgets year after year was a decision taken by this government, supposedly to bring the deficit down to 0% by a certain date.
That's the biggest lie in the modern political economy. Firstly we do not need to cut the deficit to zero - that's called austerity and is precisely the wrong approach. It hasn't worked anywhere. And second, this government keeps cutting corporation tax but they don't cut pensions nor raise the retirement age.
The largest bill by far for the government is pensions. So they get 2.5% per annum increase whilst public sector jobs get just 1% and vacancies aren't filled.
It's nonsense and they now spend the next two years trying to implement an advisory vote on the EU which was in part brought about by these cuts to services.
As the deadline for Brexit approaches there is likely to be more political chaos. And for what? So as to leave the biggest single market on the planet? And it appears that 65% of our trade is either with the EU or with countries that have free trade agreements with the EU.
Lewis Carroll could not have dreamt this up.
I thought we had increased retirement ages? And no successful countries ever have a zero deficit then?
Over the years since 1999 there have been a lot of in's and outs as to what is public sector and the differing sections of public sector. Royal mail being one that left, Lloyds bank coming in and then back out again etc.
Central Government employment continues to rise (which includes the NHS), up nearly 3% in the last year. To note: "NHS employment has increased every quarter since June 2013. In March 2017, it increased by 1,000 (0.1%) on the previous quarter and 31,000 (2.0%) on the previous year to reach 1.604 million." But clearly from what you see on the ground it doesn't seem to be a big enough increase.
Local Government employment is falling but the main factor is largely contributed to Academy Conversions.
Not so good is "Employment in “other health and social work” has fallen every quarter for 5 years. At 261,000, it was down 1,000 (0.4%) on the quarter and 17,000 (6.1%) on the previous year." that's very poor.
there are lots of other figures if anyone is interested!
Had a lot of time for Chuka Umunna, but i just can't see the logic of this at this time. For once the labour (even New Labour) supporting public are largely on Corbyn's side as well as the members, I just can't see what he had to gain from this other than testing the response of the public. Irresponsible in the extreme, as of course Corbyn had to sack front benchers that rebelled.
Umunna pulling out of the leadership race meant the centre/right of the party lost any real foothold. The refusal of any of these guys to join the shadow cabinet (because they didn't want to be associated with the momentum car crash as it was widely seen right up until May called this election) has left this country with no credible opposition until now - and then he destabilises it further.
The time for the push of the remainers is when the polls show a 20% majority or more for the population remaining in the EU. At the moment it is about a 2% majority. There are enough sensible people who voted Brexit to see the shambles that is unfolding - they are not all like that old girl on Question Time last night who seeemed to be suggesting we returned to the empire! -but they might need another 8 months to a year of these disaterous negotiations. If this happens, the solution will be to get the public to vote on the deal and if it isn't a good one, there will be enough conservatives supporting this.
You have to be sensible and strategic. You saw all the rabid Brexiters in the question time audience last night, claiming to know what type of Brexit we had voted for despite that not being possible as the question was simply yes or no. You have to deal with this sensibly as they will ride the waves of false or misguided righteous indignation.
What would be more interesting would have been for DImbleby to ask all those who voted Brexit to show their hands - then ask how many of those wanted a hard walk away from everything Brexit. My guess that would be the majority but even at a conservative estimate you are going to get about 10 per cent at least of Brexiters who do not want a hard brexit. You have to assume that every boy who voted to remain does not want a hard brexit if they have to have a brexit so with even a smaller percentage than 10%, this would clearly mean that more people favour a soft Brexit.
Based on simple maths, the claims of Brexiters that we voted for a hard Brexit are complete rubbish! Unless basically every single person who voted Brexet wanted a hard one. This is where the closeness of the final vote does become significant.
The time for the push of the remainers is when the polls show a 20% majority or more for the population remaining in the EU. At the moment it is about a 2% majority. There are enough sensible people who voted Brexit to see the shambles that is unfolding - they are not all like that old girl on Question Time last night who seeemed to be suggesting we returned to the empire! -but they might need another 8 months to a year of these disaterous negotiations. If this happens, the solution will be to get the public to vote on the deal and if it isn't a good one, there will be enough conservatives supporting this.
You have to be sensible and strategic. You saw all the rabid Brexiters in the question time audience last night, claiming to know what type of Brexit we had voted for despite that not being possible as the question was simply yes or no. You have to deal with this sensibly as they will ride the waves of false or misguided righteous indignation.
What would be more interesting would have been for DImbleby to ask all those who voted Brexit to show their hands - then ask how many of those wanted a hard walk away from everything Brexit. My guess that would be the majority but even at a conservative estimate you are going to get about 10 per cent at least of Brexiters who do not want a hard brexit. You have to assume that every boy who voted to remain does not want a hard brexit if they have to have a brexit so with even a smaller percentage than 10%, this would clearly mean that more people favour a soft Brexit.
Based on simple maths, the claims of Brexiters that we voted for a hard Brexit are complete rubbish! Unless basically every single person who voted Brexet wanted a hard one. This is where the closeness of the final vote does become significant.
On the notion that people who voted brexit but now regret it the tussle they might be having is about honouring the principle of the vote, even if they are now thinking it will be inevitable disaster. If you value that referendums version of democracy, that principle might override your other concerns.
How can anyone expect the Centre ground to switch decisively to a Remain viewpoint if those politicians who hold that viewpoint do not or cannot show the political leadership to influence them? Who is going to do it? The Lib Dems? Thankfully the religious zealot meerkat has resigned but they have no leader, and precious few MPs. Where is the Remain-grounded opposition to what this mad government are doing, if principled Labour Remainers cannot speak up?
How can anyone expect the Centre ground to switch decisively to a Remain viewpoint if those politicians who hold that viewpoint do not or cannot show the political leadership to influence them? Who is going to do it? The Lib Dems? Thankfully the religious zealot meerkat has resigned but they have no leader, and precious few MPs. Where is the Remain-grounded opposition to what this mad government are doing, if principled Labour Remainers cannot speak up?
I wouldn't be surprised for this continue to play out in the labour party ranks, precious few have anything to lose. Am I the only one who finds it slightly amusing Corbyn throwing his toys out of his pram for those who defy the party line/his line........ talk about kettle and pot.
Expect a leadership challenge within the next 12 months. Chuka could probably garner more people within the Party than Corbyn but then Corbyn will get more of the members on-side I expect. Car crash if ever I've seen one.
How can anyone expect the Centre ground to switch decisively to a Remain viewpoint if those politicians who hold that viewpoint do not or cannot show the political leadership to influence them? Who is going to do it? The Lib Dems? Thankfully the religious zealot meerkat has resigned but they have no leader, and precious few MPs. Where is the Remain-grounded opposition to what this mad government are doing, if principled Labour Remainers cannot speak up?
I wouldn't be surprised for this continue to play out in the labour party ranks, precious few have anything to lose. Am I the only one who finds it slightly amusing Corbyn throwing his toys out of his pram for those who defy the party line/his line........ talk about kettle and pot.
Expect a leadership challenge within the next 12 months. Chuka could probably garner more people within the Party than Corbyn but then Corbyn will get more of the members on-side I expect. Car crash if ever I've seen one.
Another general election is more likely than a Labour leadership challenge in the next 12 months.
Is it possible that Corbyn has no real aspirations to be PM but loves being the opposition leader? Loves being able to criticise everything yet having to do nothing.
It has always been much easier to sit in the corner and do nothing yet complain about the outcomes of everyone else's efforts.
Is it possible that Corbyn has no real aspirations to be PM but loves being the opposition leader? Loves being able to criticise everything yet having to do nothing.
It has always been much easier to sit in the corner and do nothing yet complain about the outcomes of everyone else's efforts.
That would have made some sense if the recent manifesto hadn't been full of things to do.
Would it not be more plausible to say, based on the evidence,that Theresa May has no real aspirations to be an inclusive PM who listens to her cabinet and party but loves being the absolute leader? Loves being able to criticise everybody else's ideas yet having none of her own?
How can anyone expect the Centre ground to switch decisively to a Remain viewpoint if those politicians who hold that viewpoint do not or cannot show the political leadership to influence them? Who is going to do it? The Lib Dems? Thankfully the religious zealot meerkat has resigned but they have no leader, and precious few MPs. Where is the Remain-grounded opposition to what this mad government are doing, if principled Labour Remainers cannot speak up?
I wouldn't be surprised for this continue to play out in the labour party ranks, precious few have anything to lose. Am I the only one who finds it slightly amusing Corbyn throwing his toys out of his pram for those who defy the party line/his line........ talk about kettle and pot.
Expect a leadership challenge within the next 12 months. Chuka could probably garner more people within the Party than Corbyn but then Corbyn will get more of the members on-side I expect. Car crash if ever I've seen one.
Another general election is more likely than a Labour leadership challenge in the next 12 months.
This, the likes of Ummuna, Jarvis, Cooper et al missed their chance because they thought Corbyn would be fly by night. They reap what they sow and should have been braver. There is a reason the challenges so far have been so weak.
There is no pot and kettle here @Rob7Lee, as the leader of the opposition he had no choice but to sack front bench dissenters. He was never on the front bench to dissent. He may well even have agreed with the amendment (probably not), but is showing party before self, his brand of politics is what the members want.
How can anyone expect the Centre ground to switch decisively to a Remain viewpoint if those politicians who hold that viewpoint do not or cannot show the political leadership to influence them? Who is going to do it? The Lib Dems? Thankfully the religious zealot meerkat has resigned but they have no leader, and precious few MPs. Where is the Remain-grounded opposition to what this mad government are doing, if principled Labour Remainers cannot speak up?
I wouldn't be surprised for this continue to play out in the labour party ranks, precious few have anything to lose. Am I the only one who finds it slightly amusing Corbyn throwing his toys out of his pram for those who defy the party line/his line........ talk about kettle and pot.
Expect a leadership challenge within the next 12 months. Chuka could probably garner more people within the Party than Corbyn but then Corbyn will get more of the members on-side I expect. Car crash if ever I've seen one.
I'm no Corbyn fan, but he really had no choice here. He never once defied the party line as a member of the front bench/cabinet.
Maybe he had no choice, but I still chuckle that the serial dissenter sacks the dissenters (I get the he was never on the front bench bit).
It does make you wonder though what the Labour MP's views really are. They were ordered to tow party line, but 50 (?) didn't, how many of the other 200 odd don't agree either with the Party line.
Bit of an election fraud being looked into by the looks of it, students in particular voting twice (and boasting about it on social media apparently).......
Is it possible that Corbyn has no real aspirations to be PM but loves being the opposition leader? Loves being able to criticise everything yet having to do nothing.
It has always been much easier to sit in the corner and do nothing yet complain about the outcomes of everyone else's efforts.
That would have made some sense if the recent manifesto hadn't been full of things to do.
Would it not be more plausible to say, based on the evidence,that Theresa May has no real aspirations to be an inclusive PM who listens to her cabinet and party but loves being the absolute leader? Loves being able to criticise everybody else's ideas yet having none of her own?
I don't think so, but I don't see the relevance of the question either.
It might be more plausible to say that when the sun goes down it will be dark but that has little relevance to my question about Corbyn as well.
Is it possible that Corbyn has no real aspirations to be PM but loves being the opposition leader? Loves being able to criticise everything yet having to do nothing.
It has always been much easier to sit in the corner and do nothing yet complain about the outcomes of everyone else's efforts.
That would have made some sense if the recent manifesto hadn't been full of things to do.
Would it not be more plausible to say, based on the evidence,that Theresa May has no real aspirations to be an inclusive PM who listens to her cabinet and party but loves being the absolute leader? Loves being able to criticise everybody else's ideas yet having none of her own?
I don't think so, but I don't see the relevance of the question either.
It might be more plausible to say that when the sun goes down it will be dark but that has little relevance to my question about Corbyn as well.
The relevance is that it is easy to pose questions that confirm ones political prejudice.
I'm still reeling from the fact that we allow poor people to buy widescreen TV's, how did that pass me by? And when was the legislation passed?
Anyway, back on Topic. Chuka reckons he has at least 90 labour MP's supporting his brexit effort and he's going to team up with the Tories, Dib Lems, SNP etc who also are in favour.
Is it possible that Corbyn has no real aspirations to be PM but loves being the opposition leader? Loves being able to criticise everything yet having to do nothing.
It has always been much easier to sit in the corner and do nothing yet complain about the outcomes of everyone else's efforts.
That would have made some sense if the recent manifesto hadn't been full of things to do.
Would it not be more plausible to say, based on the evidence,that Theresa May has no real aspirations to be an inclusive PM who listens to her cabinet and party but loves being the absolute leader? Loves being able to criticise everybody else's ideas yet having none of her own?
I don't think so, but I don't see the relevance of the question either.
It might be more plausible to say that when the sun goes down it will be dark but that has little relevance to my question about Corbyn as well.
The relevance is that it is easy to pose questions that confirm ones political prejudice.
When the sun goes down we turn on lights.
Fair enough but my comment had nothing to do with prejudce. I just have an aversion to people that sit on the sidelines and snipe at those trying to get on with it. I have worked in offices that are full of people that always know what went wrong, and why, but seem to, completely, lose their mouth when they are asked to take the lead and show how it should be done.
I'm sure it also applies to Tories in opposition too, but Corbyn seems, to me, to be more than happy to be the Labour leader. I was, genuinely, floating the idea (looking for comment) that maybe he is happy where he is - as leader of the opposition.
For the record I think Teresa May is the worst PM we have had. I think your question about her missed the real crux of the problem. She is good for nothing once she is forced out of Downing Street. She is toxic. I can't see her on the Lecture Circuit like Tony Blair or, I presume, David Cameron. She has to cling on to power because once she loses it she has,virtually, nothing. Without getting into the unreasonable questioning of her life choices, she doesn't have children or grandchildren to spend her retirement with. Her sole focus/goal (from what I can see) has been her political career. That is why she will fight tooth and nail (and at the expense of the Conservatives) to hold on to power, and that is why she shouldn't be allowed to. The decisions she is making now are in her best interests, not the UKs!
Wish Chuka would nut up and actually put together a credible leadership bid or stop pissing everyone about. His half in half out approach is in no way helpful to anyone except the Tories.
As a staunch Corbyn supporter I cannot understand his stance on Brexit. He hates the beauracracy but it is better changed from within. Labour voters in poor areas now realise that austerity wasn't caused by East Europeans but by funding cuts. Many exiters now realise the error of their ways plus the million new young voters are highly likely to have registered in dismay at the refendum vote. A new poll would have an overwhelming Remain decision.
Comments
EDIT:
On the 17% the devil is as always in the detail:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/mar2017
Over the years since 1999 there have been a lot of in's and outs as to what is public sector and the differing sections of public sector. Royal mail being one that left, Lloyds bank coming in and then back out again etc.
Central Government employment continues to rise (which includes the NHS), up nearly 3% in the last year. To note: "NHS employment has increased every quarter since June 2013. In March 2017, it increased by 1,000 (0.1%) on the previous quarter and 31,000 (2.0%) on the previous year to reach 1.604 million." But clearly from what you see on the ground it doesn't seem to be a big enough increase.
Local Government employment is falling but the main factor is largely contributed to Academy Conversions.
Not so good is "Employment in “other health and social work” has fallen every quarter for 5 years. At 261,000, it was down 1,000 (0.4%) on the quarter and 17,000 (6.1%) on the previous year." that's very poor.
there are lots of other figures if anyone is interested!
Umunna pulling out of the leadership race meant the centre/right of the party lost any real foothold. The refusal of any of these guys to join the shadow cabinet (because they didn't want to be associated with the momentum car crash as it was widely seen right up until May called this election) has left this country with no credible opposition until now - and then he destabilises it further.
Not got much time for him at all now.
You have to be sensible and strategic. You saw all the rabid Brexiters in the question time audience last night, claiming to know what type of Brexit we had voted for despite that not being possible as the question was simply yes or no. You have to deal with this sensibly as they will ride the waves of false or misguided righteous indignation.
What would be more interesting would have been for DImbleby to ask all those who voted Brexit to show their hands - then ask how many of those wanted a hard walk away from everything Brexit. My guess that would be the majority but even at a conservative estimate you are going to get about 10 per cent at least of Brexiters who do not want a hard brexit. You have to assume that every boy who voted to remain does not want a hard brexit if they have to have a brexit so with even a smaller percentage than 10%, this would clearly mean that more people favour a soft Brexit.
Based on simple maths, the claims of Brexiters that we voted for a hard Brexit are complete rubbish! Unless basically every single person who voted Brexet wanted a hard one. This is where the closeness of the final vote does become significant.
(beat Mehmet)
If you value that referendums version of democracy, that principle might override your other concerns.
Expect a leadership challenge within the next 12 months. Chuka could probably garner more people within the Party than Corbyn but then Corbyn will get more of the members on-side I expect. Car crash if ever I've seen one.
It has always been much easier to sit in the corner and do nothing yet complain about the outcomes of everyone else's efforts.
Would it not be more plausible to say, based on the evidence,that Theresa May has no real aspirations to be an inclusive PM who listens to her cabinet and party but loves being the absolute leader? Loves being able to criticise everybody else's ideas yet having none of her own?
There is no pot and kettle here @Rob7Lee, as the leader of the opposition he had no choice but to sack front bench dissenters. He was never on the front bench to dissent. He may well even have agreed with the amendment (probably not), but is showing party before self, his brand of politics is what the members want.
It does make you wonder though what the Labour MP's views really are. They were ordered to tow party line, but 50 (?) didn't, how many of the other 200 odd don't agree either with the Party line.
Bit of an election fraud being looked into by the looks of it, students in particular voting twice (and boasting about it on social media apparently).......
It might be more plausible to say that when the sun goes down it will be dark but that has little relevance to my question about Corbyn as well.
I know lots of working class right wingers but, literally, none of those points apply to any of them!
When the sun goes down we turn on lights.
Anyway, back on Topic. Chuka reckons he has at least 90 labour MP's supporting his brexit effort and he's going to team up with the Tories, Dib Lems, SNP etc who also are in favour.
I'm sure it also applies to Tories in opposition too, but Corbyn seems, to me, to be more than happy to be the Labour leader. I was, genuinely, floating the idea (looking for comment) that maybe he is happy where he is - as leader of the opposition.
For the record I think Teresa May is the worst PM we have had. I think your question about her missed the real crux of the problem. She is good for nothing once she is forced out of Downing Street. She is toxic. I can't see her on the Lecture Circuit like Tony Blair or, I presume, David Cameron. She has to cling on to power because once she loses it she has,virtually, nothing. Without getting into the unreasonable questioning of her life choices, she doesn't have children or grandchildren to spend her retirement with. Her sole focus/goal (from what I can see) has been her political career. That is why she will fight tooth and nail (and at the expense of the Conservatives) to hold on to power, and that is why she shouldn't be allowed to. The decisions she is making now are in her best interests, not the UKs!
Plenty of centre right on here and indeed 42% of the country and that post is ridiculous
It's left wing twatter v the Daily Mail on here arghh