Nurses are on a higher wage than the grads starting in our agency... Speaking to someone on our grad scheme today and absolutely none of them are using food banks. Why do we always hear that nurses are using food banks?
Because it's a national embarrassment and a disgrace.
No that's not what I mean....
I am saying that nurses earn more money than many other professions who don't seem to use food banks as widely.
My example being a group of graduate ad execs on 18.5k are not using a food bank yet we apparently have tonnes of nurses on more than that who are..
Do get me wrong I don't like to see another one nyone using food banks but what is the reason? I lived away from home when i was on less than 20k - rented a flat with my mate in Sidcup, lived within my means (which admittedly didn't involve luxuries but that's all I could afford at the time) but was never close to not being able to eat.
Living to your means seems to be the key for me... 13 years later I live on 100k more than that but in many ways I don't 'feel' richer in the sense of having loads of cash left over at the end of every month. The difference being that he holidays, TVs, cars etc that I couldn't afford I now can. So my income has changed - and that's the difference. I have the flex to do the luxury things on top of the basic staples such as rent and food. When I was on less than 20k - well I couldn't afford that so missed out. But was never close to not being able to eat as I made a conscious decision to only do other things I once that was taken care of.
The short answer is I don't know, but being a single parent seems to be the reason. Nurses are used as an example for emotive reasons, you and I do our jobs to increase the profit of a business they help people and save lives. £100k in 13 years, nice!
I started on £14.5k in my first year out of Uni as an exec at my first agency - that was 2004. And as I said I don't look back at that time and remember being poverty stricken. Granted I never had the two kids I have now, but I am sure back then even if I was with my now wife I would have realised they don't fit on the budget sheet. My car was strictly there to get me from a to b and that therefore was reflected in what I paid for it. I didn't eat like a king - wasn't exactly visiting Waitrose every week. But I seem more conscious now of looking at the shopping receipt every night than I did back then.
Even now it is a case of live within my means. Missus doesn't allow any credit card balance to ever carry over more than 1 month. No car payments to last more than 2 years and balance at end must be affordable on less than one month of credit card payments. Have to save a certain amount every month.
I have friends who head off on holidays and are piling it up on cards. Holidays that I couldn't always afford yet I know they have far less money incoming. Getting cars on finance deals that are crazy in structure..... it's that kind of spending that will cause people issues in the long run.
If everyone lived within their means then there would arguably be less pressure on the benefits system meaning those who needed it the most genuinely got the help.
The only loan I have taken out is for my mortgage. I use a debit card - I have a credit card but that is only for car hire on holiday! It isn't used for anything else. I think that is the right approach. But some peoples means are not high enough to pay for the basics.
And people do have to realise that family budget management is totally different to the budget management of a country. If they say, I don't see why - I cry in despair.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think it is outrageous that many poor civil servants havent received a pay award above 1% since 2012 and that it was 0% for some years - not just nurses.
Don't disagree in the principal but don't just think it's civil servants, I know many people in the private sector who haven't received ANY payrise for some years. And you do have to balance that with what has been done in respect of tax and look at the net take home pay.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750 2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think you've helped illustrate the dichotomy. Some people will accept that there are a few nurses relying on food banks and will look to understand the underlying reasons. Other people will think that it's utterly shameful that any nurse working full-time would ever have to rely on free food hand outs.
In other words, either you think a small number is ok, or you don't.
For me, no first world country should put trained, full-time, key, vital workers through the embarrassment and indignity of, de facto, begging for food. Ever. Period. We used to be better than that.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think it is outrageous that many poor civil servants havent received a pay award above 1% since 2012 and that it was 0% for some years - not just nurses.
Don't disagree in the principal but don't just think it's civil servants, I know many people in the private sector who haven't received ANY payrise for some years. And you do have to balance that with what has been done in respect of tax and look at the net take home pay.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750 2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
So using those figures above, that's equivelant to a 1.352% payrise per year, which is below the inflation rate every year in that period. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, that £17,750 in 2010, would need to be £21,000 now just to match inflation. So rather than being £1500 better off as you state above, they're actually £1500 worse off. Plus things like house prices, rent, travel have all gone up above the rate of inflation.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
@Rob7Lee has nailed it here in my opinion. Nurses have a tendamcy to be single mums. If they could just hold onto a relationship in the first place they would have 2 incomes instead of one
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think it is outrageous that many poor civil servants havent received a pay award above 1% since 2012 and that it was 0% for some years - not just nurses.
Don't disagree in the principal but don't just think it's civil servants, I know many people in the private sector who haven't received ANY payrise for some years. And you do have to balance that with what has been done in respect of tax and look at the net take home pay.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750 2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
So using those figures above, that's equivelant to a 1.352% payrise per year, which is below the inflation rate every year in that period. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, that £17,750 in 2010, would need to be £21,000 now just to match inflation. So rather than being £1500 better off as you state above, they're actually £1500 worse off. Plus things like house prices, rent, travel have all gone up above the rate of inflation.
It seems there are civil servants and then there are civil servants. Coming to it cold, I'd have guessed that the highest earners would be in Departments like the Ministry of Justice or the Treasury, maybe. But no, the highest median salaries in Civil Service land are at the Department for International Development and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. The guys at DiFD average £52k + while those at the DWP are down at £22k. On the surface some of the comparisons look odd to say the least.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think you've helped illustrate the dichotomy. Some people will accept that there are a few nurses relying on food banks and will look to understand the underlying reasons. Other people will think that it's utterly shameful that any nurse working full-time would ever have to rely on free food hand outs.
In other words, either you think a small number is ok, or you don't.
For me, no first world country should put trained, full-time, key, vital workers through the embarrassment and indignity of, de facto, begging for food. Ever. Period. We used to be better than that.
Just for the record I do think it shameful on society that anyone has to use food banks, but I'd like to understand why, to solve any problem you need to understand the issue which I don't believe is solely due to someone earning on or near the national average wage. Let's not forget that wage would still be £3-4K above labours increased new minimum wage.
As an example it could be that the lady with 4 children a few years back was fine, her husband/partner was also a nurse, they paid their rent, food bill etc etc. It could be he ran off with another woman never to be seen again and isn't paying any maintenance, it could be he died leaving no money/life assurance etc. It could be 101 other reasons, we don't know.
If her personal circumstances haven't changed then the reason she is needing to visit a food bank to me isn't clear when she would have circa 10% more take home pay than 7 years ago. How old are the children? Did she only have 1 in 2010 and has had 3 since....... we simply don't know. What is about the only thing that is clear in those examples or maybe the common denominator is the single parent aspect.
As an aside but slightly related, back in the early 70's my parents who both worked used to borrow money/food from next door some weeks and vice versa next door at times would do the same to make it through the week. They moved down into Kent to rent their first home as couldn't afford in London, for the first 6 years after getting married they rented a room from my dads Aunt, I wasn't alive then but yes my mum and dad plus my sister as a baby lived in that one room.......
We moved back to London in the late 70's but it wasn't until 1986 we lived in a house with central heating. Both my parents worked in the city.......
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think it is outrageous that many poor civil servants havent received a pay award above 1% since 2012 and that it was 0% for some years - not just nurses.
Don't disagree in the principal but don't just think it's civil servants, I know many people in the private sector who haven't received ANY payrise for some years. And you do have to balance that with what has been done in respect of tax and look at the net take home pay.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750 2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
You have to look at real income. As you have stated, figures mean nothing in isolation. You need to look at inflation and indirect taxation as well as take home pay and direct taxation to understand the whole picture.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the point you keep making, yes, people in lower pay are better off when you look at just those two figures in isolation. They make great headlines, but it isn't the whole picture.
The Conservatives may have scored a huge own goal with their new social care plans, along with the removal of the triple-lock. Hitting home-owner pensioners hard in the pocket.
I am not at ease when discussing poverty in this country because images of mass starvation, shanty towns, and statistics on life expectancy in parts of the world linger in the mind. I suppose poverty is always relative. I am also pretty sure that there are people in the UK going hungry and certainly living on the streets. Without going into details I have experienced hunger ( but not starvation) so much so that I once found myself in a kitchen where there was some greying and rancid fat left in a frying pan, a crust of Mothers Pride bread with specks of green mould remaining in the plastic packet, and an apparently empty bottle of brown sauce. I was very very hungry having not eaten for a couple of days or more. I picked off the mould from the bread, fried it in the fat in the frying pan, and hammered what sauce I could from the bottle onto the result. It still remains one of the best meals I have ever eaten because I was desperately hungry. I very much doubt I would do such a thing now, or would need to. Homelessness is one thing, but hunger another. It is actually possible to live just on brown rice, or just lentils like in the Young Ones. There will be examples of genuine hunger dotted around the UK, but poverty?
I wonder how poverty is defined, because I feel that I, and we, are incredibly rich by comparison to other parts of the world.
PS. Another memory is a kind PE teacher giving me a couple of nylon shirts that his own son had grown out of when he saw the state of my clothing around the age of 15 when I changed for the lesson.
This is not supposed to be any kind of sob story, but an example of how experience shapes a person's perspective on life, and influences their politics. I would not want others to face the challenges I faced when I was young.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
@Rob7Lee has nailed it here in my opinion. Nurses have a tendamcy to be single mums. If they could just hold onto a relationship in the first place they would have 2 incomes instead of one
or is it we don't do enough to make absent fathers pay their dues? I sadly know a few single mums where the fathers don't pay a penny (when they are quite capable of paying).
The Conservatives may have scored a huge own goal with their new social care plans, along with the removal of the triple-lock. Hitting home-owner pensioners hard in the pocket.
I suppose they can almost say what they want with the lead they have. Probably the most honest they will ever be!
The Conservatives may have scored a huge own goal with their new social care plans, along with the removal of the triple-lock. Hitting home-owner pensioners hard in the pocket.
I suppose they can almost say what they want with the lead they have. Probably the most honest they will ever be!
Agree. Maybe these measures are required and being brought in because May has an open goal. I'll bet labour and the lib Dems will huff and puff, but at the same time be glad they didn't have to suggest it. Bet they wouldn't reverse it either
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
@Rob7Lee has nailed it here in my opinion. Nurses have a tendamcy to be single mums. If they could just hold onto a relationship in the first place they would have 2 incomes instead of one
or is it we don't do enough to make absent fathers pay their dues? I sadly know a few single mums where the fathers don't pay a penny (when they are quite capable of paying).
I think it is a little from column A and a little from column B. You are right, the causes are important, but I haven't seen much about what you suggest to do about it other than where is the father? This is just some nazi tories murder babies jab, but what about the child in poverty and how it's chances in life are affected?
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think it is outrageous that many poor civil servants havent received a pay award above 1% since 2012 and that it was 0% for some years - not just nurses.
Don't disagree in the principal but don't just think it's civil servants, I know many people in the private sector who haven't received ANY payrise for some years. And you do have to balance that with what has been done in respect of tax and look at the net take home pay.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750 2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
So using those figures above, that's equivelant to a 1.352% payrise per year, which is below the inflation rate every year in that period. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, that £17,750 in 2010, would need to be £21,000 now just to match inflation. So rather than being £1500 better off as you state above, they're actually £1500 worse off. Plus things like house prices, rent, travel have all gone up above the rate of inflation.
It seems there are civil servants and then there are civil servants. Coming to it cold, I'd have guessed that the highest earners would be in Departments like the Ministry of Justice or the Treasury, maybe. But no, the highest median salaries in Civil Service land are at the Department for International Development and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. The guys at DiFD average £52k + while those at the DWP are down at £22k. On the surface some of the comparisons look odd to say the least.
Yes, there is the senior civil service and they are well off and there are normal civil servants and they get peed on. Reflects society really.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think it is outrageous that many poor civil servants havent received a pay award above 1% since 2012 and that it was 0% for some years - not just nurses.
Don't disagree in the principal but don't just think it's civil servants, I know many people in the private sector who haven't received ANY payrise for some years. And you do have to balance that with what has been done in respect of tax and look at the net take home pay.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750 2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
So using those figures above, that's equivelant to a 1.352% payrise per year, which is below the inflation rate every year in that period. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, that £17,750 in 2010, would need to be £21,000 now just to match inflation. So rather than being £1500 better off as you state above, they're actually £1500 worse off. Plus things like house prices, rent, travel have all gone up above the rate of inflation.
It seems there are civil servants and then there are civil servants. Coming to it cold, I'd have guessed that the highest earners would be in Departments like the Ministry of Justice or the Treasury, maybe. But no, the highest median salaries in Civil Service land are at the Department for International Development and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. The guys at DiFD average £52k + while those at the DWP are down at £22k. On the surface some of the comparisons look odd to say the least.
As the blogger points out, the DWP figures are in part due to the numbers and grades within the Department.
At a guess, I would suggest that DFID would have a much smaller number of staff, but that more of the staff would be in specialist professional and technical grades (as a Department providing large amounts in development funding it would need to have significant numbers, in relation to the overall size of the Department, with relevant experience to manage and assess programmes).
You may, or may not, agree with the Government's expenditure in various areas, but the greater degree of expertise and technical knowledge a Department requires, the higher the salary costs will be.
The civil servants that the public will see will not, in general, be particularly well paid.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
@Rob7Lee has nailed it here in my opinion. Nurses have a tendamcy to be single mums. If they could just hold onto a relationship in the first place they would have 2 incomes instead of one
or is it we don't do enough to make absent fathers pay their dues? I sadly know a few single mums where the fathers don't pay a penny (when they are quite capable of paying).
I think it is a little from column A and a little from column B. You are right, the causes are important, but I haven't seen much about what you suggest to do about it other than where is the father? This is just some nazi tories murder babies jab, but what about the child in poverty and how it's chances in life are affected?
As I've said, on those examples we don't really know enough about the root cause that has lead to the issue. If we know and can understand those then we might be able to come up with a solution. Food banks aren't a completely new thing, just in their current guise and the term 'food bank' they are. The 'food bank' used to be your neighbour next door as my example of my parents above illustrates.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think you've helped illustrate the dichotomy. Some people will accept that there are a few nurses relying on food banks and will look to understand the underlying reasons. Other people will think that it's utterly shameful that any nurse working full-time would ever have to rely on free food hand outs.
In other words, either you think a small number is ok, or you don't.
For me, no first world country should put trained, full-time, key, vital workers through the embarrassment and indignity of, de facto, begging for food. Ever. Period. We used to be better than that.
Just for the record I do think it shameful on society that anyone has to use food banks, but I'd like to understand why, to solve any problem you need to understand the issue which I don't believe is solely due to someone earning on or near the national average wage. Let's not forget that wage would still be £3-4K above labours increased new minimum wage.
As an example it could be that the lady with 4 children a few years back was fine, her husband/partner was also a nurse, they paid their rent, food bill etc etc. It could be he ran off with another woman never to be seen again and isn't paying any maintenance, it could be he died leaving no money/life assurance etc. It could be 101 other reasons, we don't know.
If her personal circumstances haven't changed then the reason she is needing to visit a food bank to me isn't clear when she would have circa 10% more take home pay than 7 years ago. How old are the children? Did she only have 1 in 2010 and has had 3 since....... we simply don't know. What is about the only thing that is clear in those examples or maybe the common denominator is the single parent aspect.
As an aside but slightly related, back in the early 70's my parents who both worked used to borrow money/food from next door some weeks and vice versa next door at times would do the same to make it through the week. They moved down into Kent to rent their first home as couldn't afford in London, for the first 6 years after getting married they rented a room from my dads Aunt, I wasn't alive then but yes my mum and dad plus my sister as a baby lived in that one room.......
We moved back to London in the late 70's but it wasn't until 1986 we lived in a house with central heating. Both my parents worked in the city.......
As a society are we really worse off now?.......
No. The common denominator is that they are nurses. Some of the examples were those of single parents. All of the examples were those working in nursing.
You're right to assume that the need for nurses to use food banks isn't solely down to their gross pay. But you're wrong to draw any relevance to the dates their children were born. Unless you're suggesting that, depending on when the children are born, reliance on food banks may be acceptable in some circumstances.
Remember: food banks aren't a safety net placed by the government in order to ensure those that need to use them are taken care of. They're charities, run by people and organisations who arrange for donations to be made available. We, in twenty-first century Britain are relying on charity to make sure that some of the most important people in the country don't go hungry. We, as an electorate, have decided that nurses are of such little consequence that we needn't bother to provide sufficiently for them such that they can fees themselves. After all, we have so many other, more important priorities, don't we?
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
As I said before food banks are a national disgrace, and anyone using them should be a cause for criticism, but care should be taken when using emotive accusations.
Except in the evidence from the RCN to the NHS pay review board in the link, no.
Except it's not evidence, is it? HCA's are not nurses. Try searching Nursing Times like I did too. Trainee nurses are also not nurses. Interesting blind 'likes' by people who haven't looked closely enough.
Michelle Murray, a single mum of four from Wigan who has been an NHS nurse for 16 years and visited a food bank for the first time this month.
Danielle Tiplady, a nurse: "As a nurse, I see my colleagues go to food banks because of low pay".
Marina Down, 23, a single mum in London training to become a nurse, says her lowest point came when she was forced to visit a food bank with her daughter.
Names and details. Is this evidence enough?
Taking those 3 examples, one is a single mum and a student, so the issues isn't a nurse on 21.5k but someone not earning anything (due to being a student) and bringing up a child alone, where is the father and what can we do to help students in that position? I suspect the London aspect doesn't help.
The other is a single mum of 4 who is a nurse, so again the issue isn't necessarily a nurses wage but the fact someone earning £21.5k a year trying to bring up and pay for a family of 5 on her own, where is the father of the 4 children and what has changed to make her now need to visit a food bank? In the past 7 years her annual net pay has increased by around £1500 a year. I suspect other changes have caused this, maybe the fathers done a bunk, we don't know though.
The last one is a nurse who know other nurses who visits food banks but we don't know their circumstances. But if a nurse on 21.5k is going to food banks due to that low pay then anyone earning that or less is and that's a fair proportion of the UK population.
So none of these are specific to nurses or someone earning close to the national average but have i suspect other influences.
I'm 100% behind nurses should be better paid for the job they do and I'd be happy to pay for that, but we need to look at the wider picture on food banks than headlines of 'nurses visit food banks' as I know many people earning less than nurses who don't.
I think you've helped illustrate the dichotomy. Some people will accept that there are a few nurses relying on food banks and will look to understand the underlying reasons. Other people will think that it's utterly shameful that any nurse working full-time would ever have to rely on free food hand outs.
In other words, either you think a small number is ok, or you don't.
For me, no first world country should put trained, full-time, key, vital workers through the embarrassment and indignity of, de facto, begging for food. Ever. Period. We used to be better than that.
Just for the record I do think it shameful on society that anyone has to use food banks, but I'd like to understand why, to solve any problem you need to understand the issue which I don't believe is solely due to someone earning on or near the national average wage. Let's not forget that wage would still be £3-4K above labours increased new minimum wage.
As an example it could be that the lady with 4 children a few years back was fine, her husband/partner was also a nurse, they paid their rent, food bill etc etc. It could be he ran off with another woman never to be seen again and isn't paying any maintenance, it could be he died leaving no money/life assurance etc. It could be 101 other reasons, we don't know.
If her personal circumstances haven't changed then the reason she is needing to visit a food bank to me isn't clear when she would have circa 10% more take home pay than 7 years ago. How old are the children? Did she only have 1 in 2010 and has had 3 since....... we simply don't know. What is about the only thing that is clear in those examples or maybe the common denominator is the single parent aspect.
As an aside but slightly related, back in the early 70's my parents who both worked used to borrow money/food from next door some weeks and vice versa next door at times would do the same to make it through the week. They moved down into Kent to rent their first home as couldn't afford in London, for the first 6 years after getting married they rented a room from my dads Aunt, I wasn't alive then but yes my mum and dad plus my sister as a baby lived in that one room.......
We moved back to London in the late 70's but it wasn't until 1986 we lived in a house with central heating. Both my parents worked in the city.......
As a society are we really worse off now?.......
No. The common denominator is that they are nurses. Some of the examples were those of single parents. All of the examples were those working in nursing.
But clearly that isn't the sole cause (being nurses) otherwise all 675,000 would be visiting food banks, along with the other 10m+ of the working population who earn £21.5k or less.
My wife is a teaching assistant, two of her colleagues (FT teaching assistants) that I know personally have children with absent fathers (so are by definition are single mums), neither of those go to food banks and as teaching assistants they earn less than £12,000 a year. Not saying life isn't hard for them and that they don't make sacrifices but they do make ends meet.
The Conservatives may have scored a huge own goal with their new social care plans, along with the removal of the triple-lock. Hitting home-owner pensioners hard in the pocket.
Triple lock gone but double lock or whatever they will call it means state pensions will rise inline with average earnings or inflation which ever is the higher. Don't see the issue with that personally? If I've read that right anyway, as a pensioner you will get a minimum of inflation rise in your state pension. Seems reasonable?
Glad they will finally do something on the winter fuel allowance. Was always crazy to pay 'the rich' an amount towards fuel at winter, that money could be much better used although I don't know exactly what this will raise or numbers effected.
Residential care is a difficult one and something we should have looked at and planned for years ago, now it's very much shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
My father is in residential care where he will be for the rest of his life, the cost takes all his pensions and some. Should he pay for it? Part of me says yes as he can afford it, if he couldn't it would be paid for by the state. However he can only pay for it due to his saving into pensions to an extreme level through his life and being frugal.
In my mid teens he could quite easily have paid less into his pensions and we could have gone to Florida on holiday rather than a week at Hi de Hi in the Isle of wight or a B&B in cliftonville, he could have bought a new car every few years I suspect but instead chose to buy a 3-4 year old one every 10 years. He was very frugal.
I'm sure there are people who earnt much more than him (in todays money he was probably on £50-60k at the end of his career) who were maybe more 'live for today' who are now sitting next to him in the care home and having their fee's paid.
Not sure of the answer, but whatever it is we just need to make sure that in our old age there is adequate services to look after us all.
Edit, I see they have suggested removing free school meals for all infant children (but I assume are keeping it for those who need it), something I suggested a couple of days back that wasn't met on here with much agreement! My children didn't need free school meals at infant school and I'd rather that £6 a day or whatever it was my two would have cost went into something else and I pay the £6 as I did.
To use Cambridge University as an example, they estimate the actual cost (to them) of providing an undergraduate education to be £18k pa on average - in other words even at £9k pa, the taxpayer is still providing a 50% subsidy.
And you of all people simply blithely accept that figure?
It hardly sounds outlandish given it is similar to what a typical non-profit private school would charge for a sixth form education.
Indeed given the small group teaching emphasised by the university and the central overheads of running such a large university (plus additional college costs), if anything it sounded quite low.
By comparison Harvard charges $43k for tuition (£33k at current FX rates or closer to say £25k pre-Brexit).
Much of what you say resonates but it's generic comments like 'no fault of their own' which will never sway the centre voters that Labour needs to attract again. Of course this is true of many and probably the majority but not all.
I am reluctant to use personal examples as they miss the point, but my father-in-law lives entirely on benefits having pissed away a good career through reckless spending and professional misconduct.
In his case the fault is entirely his own and moreover you could have predicted it twenty years ago when he gave the clearly false impression of being very well-off.
I could not possibly comment on your father-in-law's case, nor could I on any case of anyone who receives welfare, for whatever reason. It isn't my place to judge whether someone is entitled to financial support, nor is it anyone's place. This is why I feel strongly about sanctions and punishments against those who are reliant on welfare to live; there are far too many cases where people who are genuinely reliant on welfare payments for survival having their payments stopped and then suffering or even dying as a result. There is no possible way we can have a system where the person sitting in the welfare office can make the right call, 100% of the time. And if that person is working for a privately-owned company whose profit targets create horrible incentives to deny welfare to a certain proportion of claimants, leaving them without much needed funds for weeks on end, forcing them to either starve, freeze or turn to loansharks in the interim. No surprise that most appeals against such decisions are successful, but by then the damage has usually been done. Loansharks make an absolute mint out of the desperate and destitute and many people are forced to turn to them because the welfare system has let them down.
Regardless of your father-in-laws's mistakes, as someone living on these Isles I would hope that he has enough to give him food, shelter and warmth. I'm not sure what you feel an acceptable poverty rate is in this country, one of the richest countries in the world, but here are some figures:
- our poverty rate has been rising since 2010 and is nearing 20% - over a quarter of British children now grow up in poverty - up to a third of disabled people in the UK live in poverty - over two thirds of those reliant on benefits to live are in employment - the majority of those on benefits are never out of work for more than 12 weeks - over half of children in poverty live in a household with at least one working parent - the number of people being trapped in a poverty cycle (where their poverty perpetuates their inability to rise out of it and improve their situation) is increasing
Clearly, the government's mantra, and what Theresa May spouted the other day, that all you need to do is simply work your way out of poverty, is false; simply having a job has little effect on whether you are able to escape poverty. Their system of sanctions and financial punishment against those who they feel are not pulling their weight enough does not work either and in a way is sickening; they starve some poor to send a message to the rest. It sounds more like something from Game of Thrones than a policy of a 21st century developed country.
The question we should be asking ourselves isn't "do the poor deserve to have enough money to live" but "do the poor have enough money to live". The answer to that question is emphatically "No".
New York addick was right that personal examples miss the point - then he used that hypocritical three letter word - BUT and ignored his statement. Maybe we could build a big machine which can decide how deserving people are. Or maybe we should be less judgmental. We should all be fighting to get people out of poverty - that doesn't mean people shouldn't be rewarded for hard work and honest endeavour, but we are talking about those at the bottom.
I mentioned a personal example just to emphasise that I'm not oblivious to what it means to literally be penniless as someone very close to me is in that position (entirely his fault again I reiterate), which in turn puts pressure on my own family situation which I manage far more prudently.
Comments
And people do have to realise that family budget management is totally different to the budget management of a country. If they say, I don't see why - I cry in despair.
Had the government not have increased considerably the personal allowance in the last 7 years but kept it static or in line with inflation, public sector (or other) workers at the lower end would be no better off even with a 2-3% rise each year rather than 0-1%. You can't look at one element in isolation.
Using the £21.5k Nurse example, roughly in 2010 say a nurse was on £20,500 (my guess, might be different but would be roughly that). Income Tax back then on that would be £2,750. Now on £21,500 the tax is £2,000 so the net effect (before NI) is:
2010 - After tax £17,750
2017 - After tax £19,500
An increase in net take home pay of roughly 10% in that period.
NI would have reduced slightly as well but broadly the same.
In other words, either you think a small number is ok, or you don't.
For me, no first world country should put trained, full-time, key, vital workers through the embarrassment and indignity of, de facto, begging for food. Ever. Period. We used to be better than that.
It seems there are civil servants and then there are civil servants. Coming to it cold, I'd have guessed that the highest earners would be in Departments like the Ministry of Justice or the Treasury, maybe. But no, the highest median salaries in Civil Service land are at the Department for International Development and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. The guys at DiFD average £52k + while those at the DWP are down at £22k. On the surface some of the comparisons look odd to say the least.
As an example it could be that the lady with 4 children a few years back was fine, her husband/partner was also a nurse, they paid their rent, food bill etc etc. It could be he ran off with another woman never to be seen again and isn't paying any maintenance, it could be he died leaving no money/life assurance etc. It could be 101 other reasons, we don't know.
If her personal circumstances haven't changed then the reason she is needing to visit a food bank to me isn't clear when she would have circa 10% more take home pay than 7 years ago. How old are the children? Did she only have 1 in 2010 and has had 3 since....... we simply don't know. What is about the only thing that is clear in those examples or maybe the common denominator is the single parent aspect.
As an aside but slightly related, back in the early 70's my parents who both worked used to borrow money/food from next door some weeks and vice versa next door at times would do the same to make it through the week. They moved down into Kent to rent their first home as couldn't afford in London, for the first 6 years after getting married they rented a room from my dads Aunt, I wasn't alive then but yes my mum and dad plus my sister as a baby lived in that one room.......
We moved back to London in the late 70's but it wasn't until 1986 we lived in a house with central heating. Both my parents worked in the city.......
As a society are we really worse off now?.......
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the point you keep making, yes, people in lower pay are better off when you look at just those two figures in isolation. They make great headlines, but it isn't the whole picture.
I suppose poverty is always relative. I am also pretty sure that there are people in the UK going hungry and certainly living on the streets.
Without going into details I have experienced hunger ( but not starvation) so much so that I once found myself in a kitchen where there was some greying and rancid fat left in a frying pan, a crust of Mothers Pride bread with specks of green mould remaining in the plastic packet, and an apparently empty bottle of brown sauce. I was very very hungry having not eaten for a couple of days or more.
I picked off the mould from the bread, fried it in the fat in the frying pan, and hammered what sauce I could from the bottle onto the result.
It still remains one of the best meals I have ever eaten because I was desperately hungry. I very much doubt I would do such a thing now, or would need to.
Homelessness is one thing, but hunger another. It is actually possible to live just on brown rice, or just lentils like in the Young Ones. There will be examples of genuine hunger dotted around the UK, but poverty?
I wonder how poverty is defined, because I feel that I, and we, are incredibly rich by comparison to other parts of the world.
PS. Another memory is a kind PE teacher giving me a couple of nylon shirts that his own son had grown out of when he saw the state of my clothing around the age of 15 when I changed for the lesson.
This is not supposed to be any kind of sob story, but an example of how experience shapes a person's perspective on life, and influences their politics. I would not want others to face the challenges I faced when I was young.
At a guess, I would suggest that DFID would have a much smaller number of staff, but that more of the staff would be in specialist professional and technical grades (as a Department providing large amounts in development funding it would need to have significant numbers, in relation to the overall size of the Department, with relevant experience to manage and assess programmes).
You may, or may not, agree with the Government's expenditure in various areas, but the greater degree of expertise and technical knowledge a Department requires, the higher the salary costs will be.
The civil servants that the public will see will not, in general, be particularly well paid.
You're right to assume that the need for nurses to use food banks isn't solely down to their gross pay. But you're wrong to draw any relevance to the dates their children were born. Unless you're suggesting that, depending on when the children are born, reliance on food banks may be acceptable in some circumstances.
Remember: food banks aren't a safety net placed by the government in order to ensure those that need to use them are taken care of. They're charities, run by people and organisations who arrange for donations to be made available. We, in twenty-first century Britain are relying on charity to make sure that some of the most important people in the country don't go hungry. We, as an electorate, have decided that nurses are of such little consequence that we needn't bother to provide sufficiently for them such that they can fees themselves. After all, we have so many other, more important priorities, don't we?
When she smacks his arse I lost it.
My wife is a teaching assistant, two of her colleagues (FT teaching assistants) that I know personally have children with absent fathers (so are by definition are single mums), neither of those go to food banks and as teaching assistants they earn less than £12,000 a year. Not saying life isn't hard for them and that they don't make sacrifices but they do make ends meet.
Just gutted I don't have my blue suit on today!
Gonna pop down to watch it.
Glad they will finally do something on the winter fuel allowance. Was always crazy to pay 'the rich' an amount towards fuel at winter, that money could be much better used although I don't know exactly what this will raise or numbers effected.
Residential care is a difficult one and something we should have looked at and planned for years ago, now it's very much shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
My father is in residential care where he will be for the rest of his life, the cost takes all his pensions and some. Should he pay for it? Part of me says yes as he can afford it, if he couldn't it would be paid for by the state. However he can only pay for it due to his saving into pensions to an extreme level through his life and being frugal.
In my mid teens he could quite easily have paid less into his pensions and we could have gone to Florida on holiday rather than a week at Hi de Hi in the Isle of wight or a B&B in cliftonville, he could have bought a new car every few years I suspect but instead chose to buy a 3-4 year old one every 10 years. He was very frugal.
I'm sure there are people who earnt much more than him (in todays money he was probably on £50-60k at the end of his career) who were maybe more 'live for today' who are now sitting next to him in the care home and having their fee's paid.
Not sure of the answer, but whatever it is we just need to make sure that in our old age there is adequate services to look after us all.
Edit, I see they have suggested removing free school meals for all infant children (but I assume are keeping it for those who need it), something I suggested a couple of days back that wasn't met on here with much agreement! My children didn't need free school meals at infant school and I'd rather that £6 a day or whatever it was my two would have cost went into something else and I pay the £6 as I did.
Indeed given the small group teaching emphasised by the university and the central overheads of running such a large university (plus additional college costs), if anything it sounded quite low.
By comparison Harvard charges $43k for tuition (£33k at current FX rates or closer to say £25k pre-Brexit).