Where are my royalties for my image rights, I was at that match

letthegoodtimesroll

The other thread about the club advertising for a camera person throws up the question of what's my share in the money the club gets for 'selling' the pictures. Football these days is about the whole package, image rights in particular yet without a crowd there is no package, just a bunch of blokes having a kick around. Put a match on tv of a game in an empty stadium and the attraction will soon wear off and the money will stop flowing in. Clubs and footballers want to profit from their respective image rights but without us they have no 'image'. So where's my share ?. And if somebody says it's part of the T and Cs of buying a ticket that I sign up to when I buy a ticket and enter the stadium then the club should explain that it full to me every time they sell me the ticket or let me in the ground. Referring later to some obscure poster (if there is one) on a wall in part of the ground I never visit or having T and Cs and never giving me a copy surely doesn't give the club the right to use my image, does it ?

cafc999

T&C's are displayed on the wall by the ticket office and by some turnstiles. That's all the club has to do.

By the same token, any photograph taken in the ground by you belongs to the EFL and not you.

letthegoodtimesroll

cafc999 said:

T&C's are displayed on the wall by the ticket office and by some turnstiles. That's all the club has to do.

By the same token, any photograph taken in the ground by you belongs to the EFL and not you.

When I want a ticket, I telephone the club. Nobody has ever explained the T&Cs to me, offered to explain them or asked me if I have read and understood them. At the time I usually enter the ground there is always lots of others trying to get in as well and the stewards are trying to get fans to enter quickly, even assisting some fans that don't operate the gate quickly enough. If there are T&Cs displayed then they are not visible and nobody ever points them out. I've never received anything from the EFL so surely that's debatable about it owning any photos I might take. I've been going to football for a long time. I suspect that some of the 'historical' games that get shown or clips from then are not covered even if the T&Cs are enforceable. And would the image rights apply to minors - actually, do kids still go to games without their parents these days like we used to ?

cafc999

Image rights are in the T&C's

T&C's are visible and are on the website.

By purchasing a ticket you are agreeing to them

Fair? Probably not but the club have done what is legally required by them. It is the same at all club's to be fair.

letthegoodtimesroll

I don't use the club website, it's too hard to find anything and takes too long to navigate. I just checked the paperwork for season tickets and there's no mention of T&Cs on it or in the application form so therefore my purchase of a season ticket didn't require me to accept any T&Cs that may or may not be displayed around the ground. The actual season ticket doesn't mention anything about T&Cs. The paper tickets I have don't mention T&Cs either on the front or the back. On the back of the ticket there is a polite request in bold to take my seat at least 15 mins before kick off. In Smaller, not bold, font below it it says the club reserves the right to refuse admission, plus a bit about being alcohol into the ground or the coaches. In even smaller print that I can just make out even with my good eyesight it says the ticket is subject to the rules and regulations of the football association and the football league. There is nothing to tell me what those rules and regulations are. 'EFL' doesn't get a mention.

se9addick

So you want the club to pay you to go to the matches ? I've often felt that way as well, but for different reasons.

Northstandpieeater

They have to make an reasonable effort to bring ur attention to the terms and conditions. Prime example of tbis is when you buy a train ticket there are loads of terms and conditins and all the train company has to do is higlight wherento look.the legal principle escapes me but pretty sure the case that underpins it is parker v south eastern trains if you want to look it uo

letthegoodtimesroll

Northstandpieeater said:

They have to make an reasonable effort to bring ur attention to the terms and conditions. Prime example of tbis is when you buy a train ticket there are loads of terms and conditins and all the train company has to do is higlight wherento look.the legal principle escapes me but pretty sure the case that underpins it is parker v south eastern trains if you want to look it uo

So what reasonable effort was made to bring them to my attention when I bought a season ticket or match ticket ?

Northstandpieeater

You said yourself the ticket states it is subject for efl terms and conditions. Thats all they need do. Like i said i the legal reasoning alludes me but am sure its parker v southeastern railway that sets the precedent.

Henry Irving

Don't feed the troll

Covered End

I can never work out if he's serious or not.

cafc999

The next time you ring up for a ticket ask them to read to you the T&C's.

Don't moan when you get your next phone bill in though.

Northstandpieeater

Henry Irving said:

Don't feed the troll

Ha figured thats what i may have been doing. Mind you little bit annoyed withbmyself that ive forgotten my contract law

A-R-T-H-U-R

I've witnessed your image and am now considering getting my lawyers involved.

The shock and distress has left me incapable of working. (plus many several Bingham's Vanilla Stout)

You may also be liable for the months of therapy my partner will no doubt have to undergo after seeing that picture of you.

iainment

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

I've witnessed your image and am now considering getting my lawyers involved.

The shock and distress has left me incapable of working. (plus many several Bingham's Vanilla Stout)

You may also be liable for the months of therapy my partner will no doubt have to undergo after seeing that picture of you.

You should have checked on Barnivore to see what's in the beer. ;-)

A-R-T-H-U-R

iainment said:

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

I've witnessed your image and am now considering getting my lawyers involved.

The shock and distress has left me incapable of working. (plus many several Bingham's Vanilla Stout)

You may also be liable for the months of therapy my partner will no doubt have to undergo after seeing that picture of you.

You should have checked on Barnivore to see what's in the beer. ;-)

Life's too short.
Wouldn't you agree?

JiMMy 85

Henry Irving said:

Don't feed the troll

But he's such a strange troll. I get the anti-CARD, pro-regime stuff is decent material for a wind- up if you're that way inclined. But this just makes him sound stupid.

SDAddick

Get a better lawyer. Do you know how much my image rights cost?!?! And I am not a pretty man.

bobmunro

JiMMy 85 said:

Henry Irving said:

Don't feed the troll

But he's such a strange troll. I get the anti-CARD, pro-regime stuff is decent material for a wind- up if you're that way inclined. But this just makes him sound stupid.

I would be far more polite and say something like misguided! Although I believe he believes he is making sense.

cafcfan

If you're that worried about it, draft out your own T&Cs. Explain to the club that it's a requirement of them selling a ticket to you that they comply with your T&Cs. You could let the club know where it find them (pop a copy in a frame up on your bedroom wall) and the first term would be that your T&Cs entirely trump and negate anything in the club's T&Cs.
That would work wouldn't it?

(Or, alternatively, you are an anonymous individual with no especial skill or talent whose image rights are not worth a hill of beans. If you don't like it, don't attend a sporting event anywhere, ever. And don't go down the High Street and get caught on the Council's CCTV either.)

letthegoodtimesroll

.

cafcfan said:

If you're that worried about it, draft out your own T&Cs. Explain to the club that it's a requirement of them selling a ticket to you that they comply with your T&Cs. You could let the club know where it find them (pop a copy in a frame up on your bedroom wall) and the first term would be that your T&Cs entirely trump and negate anything in the club's T&Cs.
That would work wouldn't it?

(Or, alternatively, you are an anonymous individual with no especial skill or talent whose image rights are not worth a hill of beans. If you don't like it, don't attend a sporting event anywhere, ever. And don't go down the High Street and get caught on the Council's CCTV either.)

Don't tell me you used to tell people that had bank accounts they had no option but to have PPI...

Leuth

How was I the first 'LOL'? Folks.

cantersaddick

Leuth said:

How was I the first 'LOL'? Folks.

Never lol a troll?

letthegoodtimesroll

What's so difficult to consider an individual's image rights are their own and shouldnt be exploited by an organisation. Surely It's the same principle as data protection. The media numbers for football are huge now so sooner or later somebody is probably going to take a close look at how they can get their share. There are already laws about capturing your image on cctv so Personal images must already have protection in law and therefore it can't be a huge leap to say that you have to give express permission to opt in for your image to be used, not for a business to assume you've read a notice and accepted it can be used.

mogodon

There's a general misconception that individuals own rights to their own images. They do in very limited situations which mainly are limited to advertising IF the advertisement uses their image prominently.

As a photographer I can take pictures on public land and providing they are not intrusive you have no rights to those pictures or a right to stop me. The same applies on private land where the owner of the land has given permission (or more likely not refused) although if the owner refuses then pictures cannot be taken (hence the Daily Mail articles about parents being barred from taking pictures of sports days etc). Surprisingly, this also applies to children, even though parents think that a photographer (within obvious reason) has no right to photograph their child in a public place.

By attending a football match you do so in the expectation you would be filmed/photographed and it would be impossible to try to argue that any photographer needed your permission to do their job.

If you think about it if that was not the case, it would be impossible to photograph anything as you would need permission of everyone in the shot. And given we have about 20% of the world's CCTV cameras in this country, I think photos are the least of anyone's worries.

SDAddick

Leuth said:

How was I the first 'LOL'? Folks.

I already had my snappy comeback after reading the first couple sentences, didn't need the rest tbh.

Stu_of_Kunming

It's either trolling or stuwall.

cafcfan

mogodon said:

There's a general misconception that individuals own rights to their own images. They do in very limited situations which mainly are limited to advertising IF the advertisement uses their image prominently.

As a photographer I can take pictures on public land and providing they are not intrusive you have no rights to those pictures or a right to stop me. The same applies on private land where the owner of the land has given permission (or more likely not refused) although if the owner refuses then pictures cannot be taken (hence the Daily Mail articles about parents being barred from taking pictures of sports days etc). Surprisingly, this also applies to children, even though parents think that a photographer (within obvious reason) has no right to photograph their child in a public place.

By attending a football match you do so in the expectation you would be filmed/photographed and it would be impossible to try to argue that any photographer needed your permission to do their job.

If you think about it if that was not the case, it would be impossible to photograph anything as you would need permission of everyone in the shot. And given we have about 20% of the world's CCTV cameras in this country, I think photos are the least of anyone's worries.

And therein lies the problem. Of course, there's also the fact that @letthegoodtimesroll, is an anagram of Thomas Rubashaw if you include his middle name.