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How do the Tories need to change?
Cordoban Addick
Posts: 5,448
I haven't read the other thread but in the interests of fairness...
It seems to be dawning on The Tories that they did not appeal to those voters with "altruism".
In truth Tory supporters are probably as interested in doing the best for others and their family as anyone else. The problem is that The Tories made "aspirational" and "caring" mutually exclusive. That is why Labour voters didn't talk about it in the company of Tory zealots who have taken the Conservative message to its extreme. A caller on Radio 4 today told how he has been berated by his children for voting Conservative, it is the voters who are in the wrong, how can anyone not vote for the only party that puts the individual first. The bemusement turns to anger among those who demonise jeremy Corbyn , for no other reason than that their ideology had been rejected.
Theresa May has tried to make it shameful for ordinary voters with no strong political allegiances to vote Labour with the message that the Socialists only look after the poor and needy, unlike the uncaring Tory party. Ask who trebled tuition fees and most will say Conservatives, ask who wants to get rid of tuition fees, it is Labour. Poor Nick Clegg has been crucified for not being able to stop the third increase being under a coalition government. Ask students who want to scrap tuition fees who they will vote for and it's Labour. Who introduced PFI for the banks and the rich and powerful construction and services industries to make shedload of money - Tories. What Conservatives says against what it does, is as unreliable as any politician's promise regardless of party.
Also, in the face of how badly off everyone is, and the NHS is collapsing, ordinary voters have felt that things have got worse, and they use public services all the time, they largely accept there will always be problems, nothing is perfect. Voters are not stupid, there have always been problems, even when Labour ruled for 13 years, just different problems.
The middle ground voters determine who wins elections, not the extremists. Which is why the Tories and their running lapdogs of capitalism in the press have tried to paint Labour, the SNP, the Greens and even PC as extreme. The middle ground does not want a message that says to them if they care about others they will be the target of Tory policies to that destroy the public sector. That needs to change.
The Tories need to be like they used to be and promote the idea of reducing poverty by improving the lot of ordinary workers, not thinking the poor will feel better just because of trickledown economics. Only Tory politicians think people don't worry about the wealth gap when, for most, their standard of living is actually going down. The poor want access to education and employment, not more welfare reductions and the Tories need to embrace that idea, instead of pretending that cutting welfare brings down the inequality gap.
Tories instinctively believe that it is the middle income earners who actually bear the brunt of taxation and until there is a global solution to taxing international earnings little is going to change. Gestures towards attacking the super rich and NonDoms have resonance but Tories believe we should just leave them alone, so feed into the Conservative ideology of moral high ground to secure votes of the people foolish to think that aspiration is purely about the accumulation of wealth. Encourage responsibility of the rich and powerful, not set them up as being on a pedestal and untouchable.
If the Tories really believed that those with the broadest shoulders should carry the heaviest burden then they may have won hands down, just like the SNP won hands down because Scots believe the English parliament is unconcerned about every problem in Scotland.
So The Conservatives just need to get rid of the idea that decency is a dirty word and find a way of attacking the wealth gap other than by a race to the bottom. They also need to stop finding a scapegoat amongst the poor, disabled or foreign whose votes they don't need or care about. Stop forgetting about one nation ideology and moving towards Tory centre ground and abandoning core values, leave that for the old guard like May and Johnson and the Unionist dinosaurs to bemoan - move on as our dear departed leader would say. We need effective leadership from every party in power and it gives no comfort to see a Conservative party nasty, rudderless and hanging on to ideas that belong in the last century.
With some apologies to Dippenhall.
It seems to be dawning on The Tories that they did not appeal to those voters with "altruism".
In truth Tory supporters are probably as interested in doing the best for others and their family as anyone else. The problem is that The Tories made "aspirational" and "caring" mutually exclusive. That is why Labour voters didn't talk about it in the company of Tory zealots who have taken the Conservative message to its extreme. A caller on Radio 4 today told how he has been berated by his children for voting Conservative, it is the voters who are in the wrong, how can anyone not vote for the only party that puts the individual first. The bemusement turns to anger among those who demonise jeremy Corbyn , for no other reason than that their ideology had been rejected.
Theresa May has tried to make it shameful for ordinary voters with no strong political allegiances to vote Labour with the message that the Socialists only look after the poor and needy, unlike the uncaring Tory party. Ask who trebled tuition fees and most will say Conservatives, ask who wants to get rid of tuition fees, it is Labour. Poor Nick Clegg has been crucified for not being able to stop the third increase being under a coalition government. Ask students who want to scrap tuition fees who they will vote for and it's Labour. Who introduced PFI for the banks and the rich and powerful construction and services industries to make shedload of money - Tories. What Conservatives says against what it does, is as unreliable as any politician's promise regardless of party.
Also, in the face of how badly off everyone is, and the NHS is collapsing, ordinary voters have felt that things have got worse, and they use public services all the time, they largely accept there will always be problems, nothing is perfect. Voters are not stupid, there have always been problems, even when Labour ruled for 13 years, just different problems.
The middle ground voters determine who wins elections, not the extremists. Which is why the Tories and their running lapdogs of capitalism in the press have tried to paint Labour, the SNP, the Greens and even PC as extreme. The middle ground does not want a message that says to them if they care about others they will be the target of Tory policies to that destroy the public sector. That needs to change.
The Tories need to be like they used to be and promote the idea of reducing poverty by improving the lot of ordinary workers, not thinking the poor will feel better just because of trickledown economics. Only Tory politicians think people don't worry about the wealth gap when, for most, their standard of living is actually going down. The poor want access to education and employment, not more welfare reductions and the Tories need to embrace that idea, instead of pretending that cutting welfare brings down the inequality gap.
Tories instinctively believe that it is the middle income earners who actually bear the brunt of taxation and until there is a global solution to taxing international earnings little is going to change. Gestures towards attacking the super rich and NonDoms have resonance but Tories believe we should just leave them alone, so feed into the Conservative ideology of moral high ground to secure votes of the people foolish to think that aspiration is purely about the accumulation of wealth. Encourage responsibility of the rich and powerful, not set them up as being on a pedestal and untouchable.
If the Tories really believed that those with the broadest shoulders should carry the heaviest burden then they may have won hands down, just like the SNP won hands down because Scots believe the English parliament is unconcerned about every problem in Scotland.
So The Conservatives just need to get rid of the idea that decency is a dirty word and find a way of attacking the wealth gap other than by a race to the bottom. They also need to stop finding a scapegoat amongst the poor, disabled or foreign whose votes they don't need or care about. Stop forgetting about one nation ideology and moving towards Tory centre ground and abandoning core values, leave that for the old guard like May and Johnson and the Unionist dinosaurs to bemoan - move on as our dear departed leader would say. We need effective leadership from every party in power and it gives no comfort to see a Conservative party nasty, rudderless and hanging on to ideas that belong in the last century.
With some apologies to Dippenhall.
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Comments
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They first of all need to start listening and lose the arrogance.
We've been fed the line for seven years that the British economy is in fine fettle. Growth, low inflation and interest rates, falling unemployment and the fifth biggest economy in the world.
At the same time as lauding this success (?) the people have been told that austerity and cuts are what's required and still more cuts. Pay caps for public sector workers who have seen their real income fall by thousands and thousands of pounds over that period. An NHS at crisis. Police numbers decimated at a time when public security is at its most vulnerable since the Second World War. Money cut in real terms for pupils in schools. Handouts and cuts for big business and deals cut with multi nationals over unpaid tax when everyone else is being squeezed until the pips pop.
People are seeing the penny drop.
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I would like to see them sort out some form of philosophy or ideology to underpin what they do.
Even this 'one nation' stance is difficult to understand and seems to be vague and fluid.
When Thatcher said 'there's no such thing as society, only individual men and women, and families'.
At least that provided a hint at ideology. Even complete and utter free market economics is some kind of ideology. However the Tory party of late seems to stand for expediency and personal gain and nothing else.
Indeed it seems that the Tories leave ideology as an area for charities to develop for them.1 -
They won but times are changing. Authenticity, but then they would have to believe in something other than the opposition would be a disaster.
Hope this this thread says as civil as the general election thread, as I'm genuinely interested what conservatives think about their own party and it's future.3 -
Find out where that magic money tree is?2
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Their bank accounts...soapy_jones said:Find out where that magic money tree is?
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Good start. Spend someone elses money.Friend Or Defoe said:
Their bank accounts...soapy_jones said:Find out where that magic money tree is?
Raise the legal voting age to 58?7 -
Cameron referendum = own goal
May snap election = own goal
....Who and what is next... Coalition with DPU and the borders?0 -
I agree that it is important for Conservatives to define their ideology. Both in the campaign and on the election thread here, Tories have really just defined themselves in terms of being against and attacking Labour/Corbyn. It would be nice to hear some actual ideas, otherwise it comes across as being mainly about personal gain. Promoting self interest is fine and is appealing to many, but is also easily rejected by a lot of society, especially the young.
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Free school elevensies for embryos?0
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From their family tree.soapy_jones said:Find out where that magic money tree is?
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Whilst John major was the first to use pfi in the UK to a very limited extent, it was labour that jumped in with both feet. They used it on the tube and for schools. @Cordoban Addick
Both parties have defended pfi.
So once the Tories make all the changes suggested on here, who will vote for them?
I still have never put my cross next to them BTW.1 -
I met John Major - nice fella. He approached me and said thanks a lot. Quite out the blue. Was on security at the Olympics.
Boris Johnson appeared quite awkward and very quick to get away. Did not want to converse with anyone. Each to their own. I don't judge him on that.
EDIT:
The Tories should change but simply just having a lot more respect for the British public.
Once that starts, you might see a change in their general secretive "I'm an asshole" behaviour. Actually it's kind of obvious.
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Get rid of the hunchback of Downing Street.2
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I agree pfi was a disaster and (new) Labour took a bad idea and made it worse. The only good thing I can say about it is that at least we can see something for all he money we spent/continue to spend. Where as for the last seven yeas of added debt I can't really see what we have got.TellyTubby said:Whilst John major was the first to use pfi in the UK to a very limited extent, it was labour that jumped in with both feet. They used it on the tube and for schools. @Cordoban Addick
Both parties have defended pfi.
So once the Tories make all the changes suggested on here, who will vote for them?
I still have never put my cross next to them BTW.2 -
I think they should just f*** right off. But they won't so we'll suffer more lies paid for by the rich. Who want the poor to pay for their lifestyles.9
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I should add as nobody has seemed to notice that I took the original post from the 'how do Labour need to change' and swapped Tory for Labour, aspiration for altruistic and a few others. I have also swapped some of the text so it makes sense but in the main used the same words and subjects as Dippenhall's original post.2
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The problem for the Tories is they needlesly got themselves into this jam. They honestly didn't have to do it but May and others thought it was a safe bet. They have created a crisis and anger within the party. Probably the best advice would be to get rid of May straight away and bring somebody credible in. The anger and resentment is only going to fester with May staying in charge. They should have told the DUP to support them or bring them down, they might not want another election given that they had done well in the last one. Getting in to bed with them is not going to play well with quite a few liberal tories and it is going to look bad from the public persepctive.
They actually increased their vote, but just that one decision turned everything on its head. Corbyn has gone from a weak enemy who Labour felt it had to get rid of before the next election to a real danger. They have helped unite Labour and helped divide themselves. It is a mess. May is not somebody Tories will be able to rally around.1 -
Long shot this.
However given the amazing resurgence of the Scottish Conservatives, why doesn't May try an arrangement with the SNP?
It would take a lot of compromise, the biggest of which would be giving up a demand for an Independence ballot at least for the next five years, in return for an 'end' to the Conservative austerity agenda. There may even be a way of getting a softer brexit out of such an arrangement.
The political gulf is enormous, but if there was a prior agreement on several key areas it could work technically.
This would leave the Labour party somewhat emasculated of course, but an arrangement with the SNP looks better than one with the DUP.0 -
Applies to all parties of course and depends if in your own view what is it you want or is it what they need to do to get a large majority.
Much like what I said on Labour needing to move more to the centre ground from the left the Tory's need to move more to the centre from the right if they want a chance of getting 65%+ of the electorate voting for them although i'm not sure thats ever realistic.
Any party needs to appeal to the majority, but in this country (and I don't really have the answers why) there seems to be a large difference almost split 50/50, or maybe 45/45 with 10% elsewhere. The Labour & Conservatives this election were about as different as you can get yet neither got 50% of the vote indicating theres is a huge split in the countries views.
There are so many aspects of a parties policies from defence to tax to investment etc etc I doubt anyone agrees with everything in one party, anyway waffling on here's a few things I would like to see them do;
1. Increase tax but fairly and gradually. I would start with 1p on all bands, but to help those at the very bottom of the earnings chain (and to an extent those up to £100k) increase the £11,500 tax free allowance to £15,000 therefore no one under that pays tax, i'd also move the NI Bands as well so that they start higher and end higher. That is progressive tax and the richer pay more. See how that goes/money raised and if needs be adapt it up or down. Services need to be reviewed though making sure we are getting value for money. The conservatives have done a lot with the personal allowance since 2010, a point they never maximise but they can do more.
2. We are all getting older and living longer, much more of a longer term plan but Pensions need an overhaul. We've made it compulsory for companies to contribute to a pension but only if staff do not opt out and an awful lot still do. Make pensions compulsory for both people and their employers to contribute. I don't want this to be an increased state pension I think people should have control and safety themselves.
3. Care, i don't have an issue with what they proposed in many respects, if they actually had explained it people would have realised that 'dementia tax' was far from correct, people with dementia would be better off. I did however favour the previous policy that was due to come in of limiting the amount anyone would pay for the 'care' aspect. This to me made sense, there is a cap (which can be debated what it should be) but people still pay for the housing aspect. I do find the current system odd, if you need 'nursing care' it's paid for, lock stock and barrel whereas why shouldn't you pay for 'your keep' you would have done had you not been ill. I know people who's parents have gone in a home and been paid for completely, they've let their house out and made money and also the person then spends almost nothing of their pension.
In general I'd like to see a less aggressive political system, and a massive overhaul. It's all about putting the other party down and spinning what each says.
At the moment and probably all my voting life i've never really connected with one single political party, like a bit of one, bit of another etc so always ends up who I like the most or more usually who I dislike the least!
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The problem it seemed to me at the 2015 election was that both main parties and their attendant ruling class moved to the centre and it was sometimes hard to tell the difference.
Scotland and some masterful tactics by Lynton Crosby led to a Cameron majority, but the lack of distinction is what has led to the emergence of Corbyn.
Maybe it is brexit that makes people yearn for stark choices now.0 - Sponsored links:
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But the Tories increased their percentage - I think the electorate are a lot more volatile now though.
The SNP would never go into coalition with the tories, it would damage them like the Lib Dems and they know it. The problem is, teh DUP is the only party who could go in with the tories and their are specif issues with that on both sides too.5 -
Decade after decade and not much changes, does it? The Party tinkers here and there, but the land-owning, the foxhunting, the City connections, etc. endure. Arrogance seems to be bred into most of them. You can't change that, can you?
I've met some decent 'local' Tories in my time, but they aren't the arrogant City-Boy type.
The stench of Tory Party 'Government' has had a very detrimental impact on my adult life. The frustrating thing is that so many people voted for Thatcher and Cameron...and appeared happy to vote for May last Thursday. 'Popular', however, does not always equate with the benign.
As I - and many others - see things, Tory politics is, for the most part, about Self, Self, Self.
In answer to the O.P.'s question: The Tory Party will, gently, update itself, sometimes grudgingly. It's unlikely that sweeping, large-scale changes will occur (unless circumstances force changes to be enacted).
Big change goes against Tory ideology. 'Same old...', 'same old...', I reckon. There are lots of self-publicists 'out there' and many of them become Tory politicians. I'm with @iainment on this - I wish them gone.6 -
Stop Americanising British politics. Stop straight out lying about opponent's policies (or plastering even bigger lies on the side of a bus). Bring some decency back into campaigning. Run an actual positive campaign rather than hammering home rubbish like calling your opponent a terrorist sympathiser.
Stop pretending they're not making cuts when everyone knows they are. It's insulting.
Kick out the Greg Knights and men in tweed jackets and get in some youngsters. Most of their voters are over 65, where is the next generation coming from?
Actually give a sh*t about working class people.
FORGET about fox hunting.
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They know where it is, it's in places like the British Virgin Islands, Panama and so onsoapy_jones said:Find out where that magic money tree is?
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Realise that people who aren't relatives, board members or political journalists actually matter.
Is it possible to learn empathy if one has grown up without it?1 -
I have said before when all was rosy that the Tories are in danger. Politics is changing and they have to change with it. Every year a few more old people die!0
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The achilles heel of the Conservatives at this election was its usual one of condescending, patronising arrogance which has the effect of rubbing some people up the wrong way whether they have a case or not.
May took it for granted that she would receive a 'rubber stamp' from the proles but the proles didn't like being taken for granted and decided to give her a bloody nose regardless of the potential alternatives.5 -
But that is part of the point - nobody can take anything for granted in this day and age. What is happening now is damaging the Tory brand.1
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The sole purpose of the modern day Tory Party, no matter how they try to hide it, is to protect the interests of the rich. Just like Trump and the Republican Party in the US.
https://mobile.twitter.com/billmaher/status/873412477639204864/video/11 -
The sort of opposite to Labour then........Red_in_SE8 said:The sole purpose of the modern day Tory Party, no matter how they try to hide it, is to protect the interests of the rich. Just like Trump and the Republican Party in the US.
https://mobile.twitter.com/billmaher/status/873412477639204864/video/1
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This discussion has been closed.
