Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Private schools have nearer 18 weeks holiday but they get round that by having Saturday school.
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer 2 weeks at Christmas 2 weeks at Easter 3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
@seth plum in the main I don't disagree, just trying to dispel the myth on both sides that teachers only work part time, either in reality or in the terms of their contract.
You'll find the open ended part is no different to middle managers and above in offices in my experience.
The other option is to formalise those non teaching hours, but I suspect if you said to teachers they had to work 8-7 in school on every one of the 195 days that wouldn't be very popular! Which is roughly the same as a 9-5 hours, 48 weeks of the year.
It's certainly not perfect but I suspect most teachers value the flexibility of being able to work from home like that, I know I would!!
I agree, but teachers probably hate being castigated for their so called short hours and long holidays.
The problem, as I have stated before, is that everybody thinks they are an expert on teaching because they have been to school. I am not an expert on orthopedic surgery because I have a knee.
Completely agree, but it does work both ways, teachers should at least understand their own contracts of employment!
Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Private schools have nearer 18 weeks holiday but they get round that by having Saturday school.
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer 2 weeks at Christmas 2 weeks at Easter 3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
Inset days are not part of the holidays.
Imagine that most people get five weeks holiday or leave per year to take when they like provided they book it off. Add to that the public holidays which are another two weeks worth (?) and that gets you up to seven. The differential gets closer. You then have the situation where teachers have to be prepared (if they have any sense) and the teaching idyll gets a bit more diminished. My son works a traditional 9-5 job or close to that. However when the computers are shut down and the phones stop that's it. There is nothing to be done beyond that however for teachers the job is always there until you pack it in.
Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Private schools have nearer 18 weeks holiday but they get round that by having Saturday school.
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer 2 weeks at Christmas 2 weeks at Easter 3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
Inset days are not part of the holidays.
Imagine that most people get five weeks holiday or leave per year to take when they like provided they book it off. Add to that the public holidays which are another two weeks worth (?) and that gets you up to seven. The differential gets closer. You then have the situation where teachers have to be prepared (if they have any sense) and the teaching idyll gets a bit more diminished. My son works a traditional 9-5 job or close to that. However when the computers are shut down and the phones stop that's it. There is nothing to be done beyond that however for teachers the job is always there until you pack it in.
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Also, you can imagine what you like, most people get four weeks holiday on top of their bank holiday allowance - even though some have to work those days for a day off in lieu. Some employers offer salary sacrifices for extra days off (which is in effect what teachers have anyway).
However I'm convinced that they will fill this post which suggests that, despite how much money you or I think it should pay, it will appear to be enough as they will find someone that is willing to work for it. That is the only real test, and as I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion I'll stop so, with your next post, you can have the last word!
Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Private schools have nearer 18 weeks holiday but they get round that by having Saturday school.
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer 2 weeks at Christmas 2 weeks at Easter 3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
Inset days are not part of the holidays.
Imagine that most people get five weeks holiday or leave per year to take when they like provided they book it off. Add to that the public holidays which are another two weeks worth (?) and that gets you up to seven. The differential gets closer. You then have the situation where teachers have to be prepared (if they have any sense) and the teaching idyll gets a bit more diminished. My son works a traditional 9-5 job or close to that. However when the computers are shut down and the phones stop that's it. There is nothing to be done beyond that however for teachers the job is always there until you pack it in.
Perhaps I have spent too long in Devon. I am not aware of anyone getting more than the statutory minimum of 28 days holiday, including bank holidays.
My guess is that around half don't receive sick pay beyond ssp.
The fee paying school I worked for started lessons at 8am and finished them at 4.45pm BTW.
This is how my son's school explains/justifies how/why they don't have to come in on Inset days;
INSET/ Non-contact days for teachers Over a school year, pupils are required to attend for 190 days/380 sessions. In total, teachers may be required to be available for work on up to 195 days, with the additional days specified by individual schools as non-contact days. Schools may also require teachers to work additional hours before or after school sessions, as an alternative to full non-contact days, provided that any teacher is not required to work in aggregate more than 1,265 hours during a school year. Schools may therefore choose to require teachers to make up the full equivalent of the 5 non-contact days wholly through additional hours, or use a mixture of additional hours and non-contact days.
Maybe not all schools apply this specific aggregate hours rule, but I'm convinced that the teachers that are on a plane on the Thursday evening to save money on flights as the kids don't break up until Friday (for those schools with their inset days at another time) are not doing teacher training on the Friday, on a beach in Tenerife.
Maybe there are only a few schools that are applying this loophole (maybe it is only one) and if that is the case I withdraw my suggestion that all teachers get the extra holidays but some, certainly, so.
As a simple teacher I always find these threads very helpful. It's fortunate that we have so many posters who are experts on teaching, despite never having tried it, because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't realise what a privileged job and lifestyle I have.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
I'll remind my teacher wife that she finishes at 4 everyday. She'll be fucking delighted when she realises.
And let's not forget she probably only commutes 10 mins so she'll be home with her feet up by 4.10! Imagine she rolls in just before registration at 08.30 too?
Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Private schools have nearer 18 weeks holiday but they get round that by having Saturday school.
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer 2 weeks at Christmas 2 weeks at Easter 3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
Inset days are not part of the holidays.
Imagine that most people get five weeks holiday or leave per year to take when they like provided they book it off. Add to that the public holidays which are another two weeks worth (?) and that gets you up to seven. The differential gets closer. You then have the situation where teachers have to be prepared (if they have any sense) and the teaching idyll gets a bit more diminished. My son works a traditional 9-5 job or close to that. However when the computers are shut down and the phones stop that's it. There is nothing to be done beyond that however for teachers the job is always there until you pack it in.
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Also, you can imagine what you like, most people get four weeks holiday on top of their bank holiday allowance - even though some have to work those days for a day off in lieu. Some employers offer salary sacrifices for extra days off (which is in effect what teachers have anyway).
However I'm convinced that they will fill this post which suggests that, despite how much money you or I think it should pay, it will appear to be enough as they will find someone that is willing to work for it. That is the only real test, and as I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion I'll stop so, with your next post, you can have the last word!
Teachers would be surprised they don't work inset days.
Just because teachers aren't in the classroom with children, doesn't mean they're not at work.
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
I was on 24k in first job and struggled towards the end of most months... There is no way you can get by on 15k and have a good decent social life
My first 'grad' job out of Uni was £13k, absolute pittance. This was 2 years ago and I struggled a lot. Luckily I lived with my GF so we could split the cost of most things. Still didn't have any money left over every month though. I remember getting the job offer and being happy that I'd finally found a job using my degree after about 6 months of searching and just moved to a new area but I was a bit flabbergasted that the pay was so low. I didn't even realise you could earn that little working full-time. But I couldn't exactly turn the job down.
As a simple teacher I always find these threads very helpful. It's fortunate that we have so many posters who are experts on teaching, despite never having tried it, because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't realise what a privileged job and lifestyle I have.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
The last data I saw (may be out of date as Sept last year) showed we have more teachers than 7 years ago, however we have a lot more pupils now compared to them so it may not be enough.
I only know in detail about one school (inner London) which has no trouble getting teachers in, normally double digit applicants for each role.
Greenwich teacher training doesn't get jobs for all who qualify either as NQT's.
As a simple teacher I always find these threads very helpful. It's fortunate that we have so many posters who are experts on teaching, despite never having tried it, because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't realise what a privileged job and lifestyle I have.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
The last data I saw (may be out of date as Sept last year) showed we have more teachers than 7 years ago, however we have a lot more pupils now compared to them so it may not be enough.
I only know in detail about one school (inner London) which has no trouble getting teachers in, normally double digit applicants for each role.
Greenwich teacher training doesn't get jobs for all who qualify either as NQT's.
How are we on maths and science teachers now? Seems I'm always reading about a shortage of them
As a simple teacher I always find these threads very helpful. It's fortunate that we have so many posters who are experts on teaching, despite never having tried it, because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't realise what a privileged job and lifestyle I have.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
The last data I saw (may be out of date as Sept last year) showed we have more teachers than 7 years ago, however we have a lot more pupils now compared to them so it may not be enough.
I only know in detail about one school (inner London) which has no trouble getting teachers in, normally double digit applicants for each role.
Greenwich teacher training doesn't get jobs for all who qualify either as NQT's.
How are we on maths and science teachers now? Seems I'm always reading about a shortage of them
Not sure, I'm guessing by the financial encouragement for these subjects secondary schools are either short or likely to be soon.
As a simple teacher I always find these threads very helpful. It's fortunate that we have so many posters who are experts on teaching, despite never having tried it, because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't realise what a privileged job and lifestyle I have.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
The last data I saw (may be out of date as Sept last year) showed we have more teachers than 7 years ago, however we have a lot more pupils now compared to them so it may not be enough.
I only know in detail about one school (inner London) which has no trouble getting teachers in, normally double digit applicants for each role.
Greenwich teacher training doesn't get jobs for all who qualify either as NQT's.
You might well be right, but outside of London it's a different story. I teach at any excellent school on N London/Herts borders - the kind of place most teachers would love to work, but these days we seem to end up giving a job to the one person who turns up for interview. There's no London weighting, but houses in the local area start at £500k.
As a simple teacher I always find these threads very helpful. It's fortunate that we have so many posters who are experts on teaching, despite never having tried it, because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't realise what a privileged job and lifestyle I have.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
It's because the requirements to be a teacher are out of the reach of so many. If one doesn't choose to train to be a teacher at 18 the time that one has to take of work to train is too long (with no real income) for many that are interested.
Trust me, I know many people that decided to go into teaching but when they discovered that they would have to find further education for over a year they decided that they couldn't afford it.
Me, personally, if I'd known when I was 18 what I know now I would have trained to be a teacher.
I did look into it, a few years ago, but the hurdles to jump over would have meant I'd have needed to funded my mortgage etc. for over a year with no, real, income.
Trust me I have a very good idea what is involved (as I spent a lot of time in schools when I was considering it) but it is not easy to become a teacher later in life, even though there are many that, genuinely, look into it.
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Yes they bloody well do.
maybe some do, but, for sure, some of them do not!
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Yes they bloody well do.
maybe some so, but, for sure, some of them do not!
It is difficult to prove though isn't it? There is strong reportage that the five days are worked or aggregated, formally filed. There is your organic, dare I say subjective opinion where you use the term 'for sure' that says those inset days are basically a doss. What makes you so sure more than instinct or a vibe, or somebody once told you? If swathes of teachers are getting paid for nothing I haven't heard the Daily Mail getting on to it, and it would be a story they would love. 'Lazy teachers con parents' type of thing. Maybe we are in the realms of urban myth or Charlton fans drove Curbishley away. You based another position on the number of cars you see in school car parks ay 4pm, when I can equally declare that those car parks are full at 6.30am. Teachers, unlike firefighters, police officers, the armed forces, nurses and doctors, are not front line in the way those other public services are, and are maybe easier to be dismissive of because of it, but all the evidence suggests that they work very hard doing a good job in stressful often thankless circumstances.
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Yes they bloody well do.
maybe some so, but, for sure, some of them do not!
Some schools "convert Inset days into twilight sessions". This means staff will work from (for example) 3 to 6.30pm twice in a term. This time then means they get an extra day off. Bit controversial maybe, especially as other schools don't do this, but ultimately there is no overtime pay, so why shouldn't they?
KHA you seem quite down on the teaching profession? Why? It's not like the people in it are creaming off vast sums, apart from the odd immoral academy chain head.
Ultimately intelligent and creative people need to teach children if the UK is to sustain a global presence. Why not invest in that?
Believe it or not I have the upmost respect for teachers. At parents evening I am often the only parent wearing a suit and tie.
I don't belittle teachers and I believe that their input in educating the next generation, and the next, makes them amoungst the most important members of society.
I just don't think that they are hard done by. I do believe that in the interests of protecting the children from 'burning out' the short days and the holidays that teachers benefit from have a value. I am mindful of what teachers offer but I still think that, compared to other occupations, there is less stress, in terms of sheer hours worked.
I have a handful of friends that are teachers and they all seem to believe what I do. I just don't think it is an outrage that a school are offering £15k for a trainee position. I understand that it is not a lot of money but I think that the benefits that go along with it have a value.
At the risk of being controversial I think there are people on here that seem determined to find something to be outraged about and sometimes, just sometimes, I feel inclined to share my views with them and it can give the impression that I have a view that I do not.
Teachers are very important, from the time I spent in schools when I was considering a career change, I can see how challenging their job is. I just can't accept that it is he same as 50 hours a week with just four weeks holiday a year. It is just not the same and I believe that it is not unreasonable for people to accept that - opposed to believing that teachers are hard done by and that we should all feel sorry for them because they have to pop into the office once or twice during their thirteen weeks holiday and six inset days.
Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Private schools have nearer 18 weeks holiday but they get round that by having Saturday school.
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer 2 weeks at Christmas 2 weeks at Easter 3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
Inset days are not part of the holidays.
Imagine that most people get five weeks holiday or leave per year to take when they like provided they book it off. Add to that the public holidays which are another two weeks worth (?) and that gets you up to seven. The differential gets closer. You then have the situation where teachers have to be prepared (if they have any sense) and the teaching idyll gets a bit more diminished. My son works a traditional 9-5 job or close to that. However when the computers are shut down and the phones stop that's it. There is nothing to be done beyond that however for teachers the job is always there until you pack it in.
Don't get pedantic Seth. They don't have to work on them. Call them what you like. Call them fandango days if you wish, they don't have to go to work on them so for all intents and purposes they are 'holidays'.
Also, you can imagine what you like, most people get four weeks holiday on top of their bank holiday allowance - even though some have to work those days for a day off in lieu. Some employers offer salary sacrifices for extra days off (which is in effect what teachers have anyway).
However I'm convinced that they will fill this post which suggests that, despite how much money you or I think it should pay, it will appear to be enough as they will find someone that is willing to work for it. That is the only real test, and as I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion I'll stop so, with your next post, you can have the last word!
Teachers don't have to work on inset days? Where on earth did you get that from!? I'll be sure to tell my head that I don't need to bother to go to staff training any more
Believe it or not I have the upmost respect for teachers. At parents evening I am often the only parent wearing a suit and tie.
I don't belittle teachers and I believe that their input in educating the next generation, and the next, makes them amoungst the most important members of society.
I just don't think that they are hard done by. I do believe that in the interests of protecting the children from 'burning out' the short days and the holidays that teachers benefit from have a value. I am mindful of what teachers offer but I still think that, compared to other occupations, there is less stress, in terms of sheer hours worked.
I have a handful of friends that are teachers and they all seem to believe what I do. I just don't think it is an outrage that a school are offering £15k for a trainee position. I understand that it is not a lot of money but I think that the benefits that go along with it have a value.
At the risk of being controversial I think there are people on here that seem determined to find something to be outraged about and sometimes, just sometimes, I feel inclined to share my views with them and it can give the impression that I have a view that I do not.
Teachers are very important, from the time I spent in schools when I was considering a career change, I can see how challenging their job is. I just can't accept that it is he same as 50 hours a week with just four weeks holiday a year. It is just not the same and I believe that it is not unreasonable for people to accept that - opposed to believing that teachers are hard done by and that we should all feel sorry for them because they have to pop into the office once or twice during their thirteen weeks holiday and six inset days.
There is a siege mentality in teaching to some extent. I've also met some very lazy teachers who complain about workload at every opportunity in the hope that they don't get any more. The fact is though that regardless of hours, teaching is extremely draining. As the various holidays approach I am always completely exhausted and in well run schools that will be the norm. It's also getting harder. Ignore whatever govt ministers claim - it's been cut after cut for the last five years. I don't think it's my place to tell other people how easy or difficult their job is. It's a shame more people don't feel that way.
I am grateful to Kings Hill Addick for alerting me to the fact that I don't need to work on my INSET days; I wish someone had told me that 20 years ago. I'm also grateful that his thorough research into the teaching profession, from talking to his handful of teacher friends, has afforded him the opportunity to remind me of how relatively easy my job is. I shall reflect on that next time I see the pitiful number of applicants we now get for teaching posts at our school and the number of teachers quitting the profession nationwide.
I don't think people are saying how hard or easy your job is - I'm certainly not, but it is impossible not to make a comparison between the holidays.
I've never had a permanent full time job in the Public Sector but I would imagine that, for example, Nurses feel very drained when school holidays come around but they don't get them.
Most people, these days, are under pressure due to cuts in staff and increasing workloads - I've seen first hand that this is not just happening in the Public Sector. Increases in productivity have been far greater than just reducing inefficiencies. That's why the average working week is getting longer and longer for just about everybody. There are fewer and fewer positions that have paid overtime yet very few 'jobs' can be completed, satisfactorily, in the contracted hours.
I have many friends that don't see their young children awake from Sunday evening until the following Saturday morning, due to the time they leave for work and then get home. In some cases this is true for nearly ten years of their children's lives. These people are physically drained/exhausted for half the week and they would love to be able to get out of the office at 5pm just one say a week.
Under these circumstances it is natural for people to put a disproportionate value on the ability to leave by 4pm (even if it's not every day and work is taken home) and the extra holidays.
I don't doubt that you are tired by the time the holidays come 'round and I don't undervalue your contribution but I fear that you (and other teachers) don't appreciate the 'luxury' of the holidays that you get. In fact if someone goes straight into teaching from Universiry then I guess they have never worked for 48 weeks in a year. That might be a reason as to why they don't completely understand the difference between thirteen weeks to rest and recouperate and four.
I understand the difference as I entered teaching in my late twenties. Yes, the school holidays are long but do bear in mind that I can't remember when I last had a weekday evening or a weekend when I didn't do some schoolwork; I'm marking assessments this afternoon and will be doing the same tomorrow for several hours. I'm not saying that teachers work harder than others but merely countering the perception some people have that teachers don't work after 3.30pm or in their holidays.
It's a highly rewarding profession at times and I'm actually enjoying putting together a new syllabus for September but if holidays were drastically cut, I doubt there would be many teachers who would stay in the profession, probably on health grounds alone.
I understand the difference as I entered teaching in my late twenties. Yes, the school holidays are long but do bear in mind that I can't remember when I last had a weekday evening or a weekend when I didn't do some schoolwork; I'm marking assessments this afternoon and will be doing the same tomorrow for several hours. I'm not saying that teachers work harder than others but merely countering the perception some people have that teachers don't work after 3.30pm or in their holidays.
It's a highly rewarding profession at times and I'm actually enjoying putting together a new syllabus for September but if holidays were drastically cut, I doubt there would be many teachers who would stay in the profession, probably on health grounds alone.
Leave it out... It would be on holiday grounds alone. I'm not saying teachers don't work hard or after hours, my mum is one and they do... But saying cutting holidays would cause health issues is ludicrous... I haven't had a week that has been less than 53 hours since I started my job and I get 20 days holiday a year, it hasn't caused me health issues.
I understand the difference as I entered teaching in my late twenties. Yes, the school holidays are long but do bear in mind that I can't remember when I last had a weekday evening or a weekend when I didn't do some schoolwork; I'm marking assessments this afternoon and will be doing the same tomorrow for several hours. I'm not saying that teachers work harder than others but merely countering the perception some people have that teachers don't work after 3.30pm or in their holidays.
It's a highly rewarding profession at times and I'm actually enjoying putting together a new syllabus for September but if holidays were drastically cut, I doubt there would be many teachers who would stay in the profession, probably on health grounds alone.
Leave it out... It would be on holiday grounds alone. I'm not saying teachers don't work hard or after hours, my mum is one and they do... But saying cutting holidays would cause health issues is ludicrous... I haven't had a week that has been less than 53 hours since I started my job and I get 20 days holiday a year, it hasn't caused me health issues.
The 'headline' figures of the teaching profession, however, give little insight into the realities of the role. I find it pretty pointless to compare professions. It shouldn't be a competition and I hope many of us end up doing a job that we love, enjoy and gain a sense of pride from.
I never moan about my job. I have been a teacher for 22 years and am currently a deputy head in a secondary school in London. I love my job. I trained for it knowing it would probably be the only job I have.
I didn't become a teacher for the holidays, the working hours (do not confuse student times in school with the time teachers spend in school) or for the money; definitely not for the money.
I enjoy the perks, which are the holidays. However most teachers will spend some of their holiday time working. It is just near on impossible not to do so and to be a successful practitioner and respected professional. They will also work weekends and evenings. They will also give up Saturdays and holidays to support students in school, particularly during exam season.
As with any profession you get people who want the easy life. Don't want to plan or mark or prepare correctly. However these teachers get found out pretty quickly. You cannot wing it when stood in front of thirty teenagers who will see right through the blagger.
It is an emotionally draining job. It is physically demanding. It challenges you mentally. Successful teachers need to have a raft of skills and emotional resilience. I won't bore you with the political side and the constant chopping and changing of policy, approach and performance.
As I have said I won't moan about my job. I take the good and bad but I do he frustrated with generalisations made from a very small sample. Your may know a teacher or two and you may drive past a school every now and then. Don't judge the profession on the number of car park spaces available or anecdotes of those who don't buy into what being an educator demands.
I could tell you of the young dice ice teacher who is in work at 6.45 to plan lessons, mark books and ensure she is the very beast she can be, to give your children the education that you as parents feel they deserve. She will then get in her car again at 6pm.
Equally, though less common is the teacher who arrives at 8.15 and plods through the day before hitting the pub at 4.30. They tend not to last long though.
As with every job there are good and bad, the won't doers and the can doers.
What perks do I see in other professions? Company cars, wining and dining clients, private health care etc etc. I do not begrudge people who get these treats.
As I said I would do no other job. That doesn't mean I cannot moan about it. But I will defend it, myself and others when lazy, casual sound bites are bandied around.
And the stress is real. It is different from other jobs but it exists. If you take your job seriously like I do and 99pc of my colleagues do then the stress is real. For me this tends to be around dealing with children and families who are poor, ill, mentally unstable or who struggle to survive day to day. I have contributed time, effort and money to help. This is beyond the classroom but a key and unseen part of many teachers' lives. Our impact should not merely be measured by academic success but how do you measure that level of intervention? Basically with fingers crossed that the child will turn up tomorrow.
Apologies for a lengthy post ( you should see my marking) but I feel it important someone who has immersed themselves in the job for over two decades might be worth listening to.
Comments
State schools have:
6 weeks in the summer
2 weeks at Christmas
2 weeks at Easter
3 weekly half terms
That makes 13 weeks.
They are also entitled to a maximum of six inset days each academic year. I'm not aware of any school that has declined these extra days.
So you are right Seth it's not 14 weeks, it's 14 weeks and a day!
For the record I don't care what hours teachers work or what holidays they get. I just believe that you can't suggest that teachers put in the same hours as someone that, literally, works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks a year in an office that is an hour commute each way.
Teachers are always entitled to give up their career and all the benefits that come with it and try their hand doing something else and this applies to this trainee position too. My Nephew is a trainee Journalist, he works the kind of hours I've mentioned and he earns less than £17k. If he was offered the extra holidays and being able to get home before 8pm everyday in exchange for a £2k cut in his income he would rip your arm. In reality he is 'suffering' his current position as he recognises that it will be a stepping stone to a better career. That is what this mentor job offs. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that my nephew has a degree in Journalism.
Imagine that most people get five weeks holiday or leave per year to take when they like provided they book it off.
Add to that the public holidays which are another two weeks worth (?) and that gets you up to seven. The differential gets closer.
You then have the situation where teachers have to be prepared (if they have any sense) and the teaching idyll gets a bit more diminished.
My son works a traditional 9-5 job or close to that. However when the computers are shut down and the phones stop that's it. There is nothing to be done beyond that however for teachers the job is always there until you pack it in.
Also, you can imagine what you like, most people get four weeks holiday on top of their bank holiday allowance - even though some have to work those days for a day off in lieu. Some employers offer salary sacrifices for extra days off (which is in effect what teachers have anyway).
However I'm convinced that they will fill this post which suggests that, despite how much money you or I think it should pay, it will appear to be enough as they will find someone that is willing to work for it. That is the only real test, and as I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion I'll stop so, with your next post, you can have the last word!
My guess is that around half don't receive sick pay beyond ssp.
The fee paying school I worked for started lessons at 8am and finished them at 4.45pm BTW.
This is how my son's school explains/justifies how/why they don't have to come in on Inset days;
INSET/ Non-contact days for teachers
Over a school year, pupils are required to attend for 190 days/380 sessions. In total, teachers may be required to be available for work on up to 195 days, with the additional days specified by individual schools as non-contact days. Schools may also require teachers to work additional hours before or after school sessions, as an alternative to full non-contact days, provided that any teacher is not required to work in aggregate more than 1,265 hours during a school year. Schools may therefore choose to require teachers to make up the full equivalent of the 5 non-contact days wholly through additional hours, or use a mixture of additional hours and non-contact days.
Maybe not all schools apply this specific aggregate hours rule, but I'm convinced that the teachers that are on a plane on the Thursday evening to save money on flights as the kids don't break up until Friday (for those schools with their inset days at another time) are not doing teacher training on the Friday, on a beach in Tenerife.
Maybe there are only a few schools that are applying this loophole (maybe it is only one) and if that is the case I withdraw my suggestion that all teachers get the extra holidays but some, certainly, so.
The only bit I don't get is why, if teaching is such a land of milk and honey, are we currently experiencing a disastrous teacher shortage? You'd think they would be climbing over the fences.
Just because teachers aren't in the classroom with children, doesn't mean they're not at work.
I only know in detail about one school (inner London) which has no trouble getting teachers in, normally double digit applicants for each role.
Greenwich teacher training doesn't get jobs for all who qualify either as NQT's.
Trust me, I know many people that decided to go into teaching but when they discovered that they would have to find further education for over a year they decided that they couldn't afford it.
Me, personally, if I'd known when I was 18 what I know now I would have trained to be a teacher.
I did look into it, a few years ago, but the hurdles to jump over would have meant I'd have needed to funded my mortgage etc. for over a year with no, real, income.
Trust me I have a very good idea what is involved (as I spent a lot of time in schools when I was considering it) but it is not easy to become a teacher later in life, even though there are many that, genuinely, look into it.
There is your organic, dare I say subjective opinion where you use the term 'for sure' that says those inset days are basically a doss. What makes you so sure more than instinct or a vibe, or somebody once told you? If swathes of teachers are getting paid for nothing I haven't heard the Daily Mail getting on to it, and it would be a story they would love. 'Lazy teachers con parents' type of thing. Maybe we are in the realms of urban myth or Charlton fans drove Curbishley away.
You based another position on the number of cars you see in school car parks ay 4pm, when I can equally declare that those car parks are full at 6.30am. Teachers, unlike firefighters, police officers, the armed forces, nurses and doctors, are not front line in the way those other public services are, and are maybe easier to be dismissive of because of it, but all the evidence suggests that they work very hard doing a good job in stressful often thankless circumstances.
KHA you seem quite down on the teaching profession? Why? It's not like the people in it are creaming off vast sums, apart from the odd immoral academy chain head.
Ultimately intelligent and creative people need to teach children if the UK is to sustain a global presence. Why not invest in that?
I don't belittle teachers and I believe that their input in educating the next generation, and the next, makes them amoungst the most important members of society.
I just don't think that they are hard done by. I do believe that in the interests of protecting the children from 'burning out' the short days and the holidays that teachers benefit from have a value. I am mindful of what teachers offer but I still think that, compared to other occupations, there is less stress, in terms of sheer hours worked.
I have a handful of friends that are teachers and they all seem to believe what I do. I just don't think it is an outrage that a school are offering £15k for a trainee position. I understand that it is not a lot of money but I think that the benefits that go along with it have a value.
At the risk of being controversial I think there are people on here that seem determined to find something to be outraged about and sometimes, just sometimes, I feel inclined to share my views with them and it can give the impression that I have a view that I do not.
Teachers are very important, from the time I spent in schools when I was considering a career change, I can see how challenging their job is. I just can't accept that it is he same as 50 hours a week with just four weeks holiday a year. It is just not the same and I believe that it is not unreasonable for people to accept that - opposed to believing that teachers are hard done by and that we should all feel sorry for them because they have to pop into the office once or twice during their thirteen weeks holiday and six inset days.
Not that I begrudge them a round of golf.
But they clearly don't all work them.
The fact is though that regardless of hours, teaching is extremely draining. As the various holidays approach I am always completely exhausted and in well run schools that will be the norm. It's also getting harder. Ignore whatever govt ministers claim - it's been cut after cut for the last five years.
I don't think it's my place to tell other people how easy or difficult their job is. It's a shame more people don't feel that way.
I've never had a permanent full time job in the Public Sector but I would imagine that, for example, Nurses feel very drained when school holidays come around but they don't get them.
Most people, these days, are under pressure due to cuts in staff and increasing workloads - I've seen first hand that this is not just happening in the Public Sector. Increases in productivity have been far greater than just reducing inefficiencies. That's why the average working week is getting longer and longer for just about everybody. There are fewer and fewer positions that have paid overtime yet very few 'jobs' can be completed, satisfactorily, in the contracted hours.
I have many friends that don't see their young children awake from Sunday evening until the following Saturday morning, due to the time they leave for work and then get home. In some cases this is true for nearly ten years of their children's lives. These people are physically drained/exhausted for half the week and they would love to be able to get out of the office at 5pm just one say a week.
Under these circumstances it is natural for people to put a disproportionate value on the ability to leave by 4pm (even if it's not every day and work is taken home) and the extra holidays.
I don't doubt that you are tired by the time the holidays come 'round and I don't undervalue your contribution but I fear that you (and other teachers) don't appreciate the 'luxury' of the holidays that you get. In fact if someone goes straight into teaching from Universiry then I guess they have never worked for 48 weeks in a year. That might be a reason as to why they don't completely understand the difference between thirteen weeks to rest and recouperate and four.
It's a highly rewarding profession at times and I'm actually enjoying putting together a new syllabus for September but if holidays were drastically cut, I doubt there would be many teachers who would stay in the profession, probably on health grounds alone.
The 13 weeks holiday a year is wonderful.
The 'contracted' hours are easily manageable.
The 'headline' figures of the teaching profession, however, give little insight into the realities of the role. I find it pretty pointless to compare professions. It shouldn't be a competition and I hope many of us end up doing a job that we love, enjoy and gain a sense of pride from.
I never moan about my job. I have been a teacher for 22 years and am currently a deputy head in a secondary school in London. I love my job. I trained for it knowing it would probably be the only job I have.
I didn't become a teacher for the holidays, the working hours (do not confuse student times in school with the time teachers spend in school) or for the money; definitely not for the money.
I enjoy the perks, which are the holidays. However most teachers will spend some of their holiday time working. It is just near on impossible not to do so and to be a successful practitioner and respected professional. They will also work weekends and evenings. They will also give up Saturdays and holidays to support students in school, particularly during exam season.
As with any profession you get people who want the easy life. Don't want to plan or mark or prepare correctly. However these teachers get found out pretty quickly. You cannot wing it when stood in front of thirty teenagers who will see right through the
blagger.
It is an emotionally draining job. It is physically demanding. It challenges you mentally. Successful teachers need to have a raft of skills and emotional resilience. I won't bore you with the political side and the constant chopping and changing of policy, approach and performance.
As I have said I won't moan about my job. I take the good and bad but I do he frustrated with generalisations made from a very small sample. Your may know a teacher or two and you may drive past a school every now and then. Don't judge the profession on the number of car park spaces available or anecdotes of those who don't buy into what being an educator demands.
I could tell you of the young dice ice teacher who is in work at 6.45 to plan lessons, mark books and ensure she is the very beast she can be, to give your children the education that you as parents feel they deserve. She will then get in her car again at 6pm.
Equally, though less common is the teacher who arrives at 8.15 and plods through the day before hitting the pub at 4.30. They tend not to last long though.
As with every job there are good and bad, the won't doers and the can doers.
What perks do I see in other professions? Company cars, wining and dining clients, private health care etc etc. I do not begrudge people who get these treats.
As I said I would do no other job. That doesn't mean I cannot moan about it. But I will defend it, myself and others when lazy, casual sound bites are bandied around.
And the stress is real. It is different from other jobs but it exists. If you take your job seriously like I do and 99pc of my colleagues do then the stress is real. For me this tends to be around dealing with children and families who are poor, ill, mentally unstable or who struggle to survive day to day. I have contributed time, effort and money to help. This is beyond the classroom but a key and unseen part of many teachers' lives. Our impact should not merely be measured by academic success but how do you measure that level of intervention? Basically with fingers crossed that the child will turn up tomorrow.
Apologies for a lengthy post ( you should see my marking) but I feel it important someone who has immersed themselves in the job for over two decades might be worth listening to.
Hopefully. It, could do better!