Making comparisons with 60s and 70s attendances is a bit odd when there are far more recent numbers available. Why not make comparison with the 20s and 30s in that case?
Have a look at 79-81 if you want to use that kind of argument - the tier three Charlton average in 1980/81 was TWO people lower than the preceding season in tier two.
What we know is that the Charlton gates and season-ticket sales are well below where they were in this division 2009-12, and that there is significant alienation among fans towards the owner and management, which wasn't true then - and this despite ultra-cheap season tickets being available.
In the meantime, average attendances elsewhere have been stable or seen modest growth.
I no longer go very often not as a direct result of the Belgians, but as an indirect result (because watching midtable L1 football in a third full stadium doesn't do much for me).
Also as others have noted once you get used to just following the game via Twitter, radio, Sky etc you realise that you don't miss it as much as you thought and are grateful to have a lot more precious time on a Saturday.
In short when we win I am pleased regardless and if we lose/draw then I am glad I didn't bother going.
A fairweather fan then? It does not work like that.
But this is a discussion about attendances and I suspect that for a lot of people it does work like that. Now that my kids don't want to go anymore I would be spending at least two hours in the car on my own with no guarantee of meeting any of the crowd I used to sit with as they have mostly given it up too. I was genuinely planning to go to the Wigan game and only realised at 8.30pm that I'd completely forgotten. That would have been unthinkable once, but actually I was pleased, and that's before the extent of the defeat became apparent. I used to say, 'I will get a season ticket the day after Roland sells', but I doubt whether that's true anymore. People move on. You might say, 'Well you were never a proper fan then.' Fine, maybe I wasn't, but if you want to understand low attendances, it's part of the answer.
I no longer go very often not as a direct result of the Belgians, but as an indirect result (because watching midtable L1 football in a third full stadium doesn't do much for me).
Also as others have noted once you get used to just following the game via Twitter, radio, Sky etc you realise that you don't miss it as much as you thought and are grateful to have a lot more precious time on a Saturday.
In short when we win I am pleased regardless and if we lose/draw then I am glad I didn't bother going.
A fairweather fan then? It does not work like that.
But this is a discussion about attendances and I suspect that for a lot of people it does work like that. Now that my kids don't want to go anymore I would be spending at least two hours in the car on my own with no guarantee of meeting any of the crowd I used to sit with as they have mostly given it up too. I was genuinely planning to go to the Wigan game and only realised at 8.30pm that I'd completely forgotten. That would have been unthinkable once, but actually I was pleased, and that's before the extent of the defeat became apparent. I used to say, 'I will get a season ticket the day after Roland sells', but I doubt whether that's true anymore. People move on. You might say, 'Well you were never a proper fan then.' Fine, maybe I wasn't, but if you want to understand low attendances, it's part of the answer.
Understand totally but it is possible to regain the habit too - I knew someone who did this at various stages in his life - and there is also a natural churn effect over and above the current crisis. I think the ownership is doing a lot of damage, but as with the move to Selhurst it can be repaired over time. It just isn't going to happen while the causes of the problem are still in place.
The ownership is, I would say a huge factor. The only personal example I can give is when I was at 6th form going into uni. From the start of the 98/99 season through to the end of the 01/02 season, I missed one game which was Swindon away in the league in the night (Sep/oct 99 - I think). So it was a good solid 4 seasons of going to every game.
02/03 was the start of my 2nd year at uni and I just remember thinking, I'm missing a lot of good nights out here because every Saturday I'm getting on a coach and going to Bolton or Everton. That was the only reason I stopped the away games, still went to all the home games
I remember the first home game I voluntarily decided to miss was when we sent Palace down (lads holiday). I had been to every home league game from when we beat Peterborough 5-1 in Apr 94. It was my Saturday. If you'd have said to me I had to miss a home game during that time (Apr 94 - May 05) I'd have been very perturbed
Then when you do miss one, although it feels odd, you can easily miss a few more. You have family commitments, birthdays, holidays etc.
I appreciate it's different for different people, but I highlight this because I can understand that over your lifetime, some may have periods of fluctuation when they can go etc
I must admit, I could never get the 'not attending because of what league we're in etc'
Your club is your club and if we drop to the conference I'd still go
I wonder how many tax dodgers from UOG took up the offer? 10, 20 maybe?
Loads couldn't sit in my normal seat
I think that was the group who were doing the half time nonsense. That was the only noticeable group. As said, the North lower looked less busy than the Southend game.
Not that it matters where you sit, you seemed to spend the whole game looking at your phone :-)
I wonder how many tax dodgers from UOG took up the offer? 10, 20 maybe?
Are all the students at UOG even back yet anyway?
If they are back then surely it was the end of freshers week.
Seems an odd time to do the promotion. Would've thought it'd have attracted more in a few weeks when people are more settled in and aren't at the end of a week where everyones been going out every night.
So Roly & Kat can't even sell a game and a pint for a fiver to local students.
Surely even the thickest skinned narcissist starts to realise that maybe, just maybe, they really are feckin' useless!!!
Or maybe that it is much tougher to tap into new markets than you think...
But it shouldn't be Dan, and I honestly think wouldn't be, for a well run business with owners and management who look like they actually care.
There is huge potential in the near vicinity of The Valley, with thousands of new homes going up across Greenwich and Woolwich. I honestly don't know if the club have done anything to appeal to those new residents in the borough.
I certainly haven't heard a word from them since giving up my season ticket the season before last. That's having been going since I was four and having 10 year VIP tickets and the two shorter term follow ups.
I attended one game last season (couldn't help myself, was convinced we would finally beat the Spanners again). I would definitely have gone to the Legends game if I had been in the country and I will renew as soon as they are gone. I have found other things to do, but my dad and I do miss it and will be back.
In the meantime, what exactly is the club doing to grow attendances? As far as I am concerned, nothing has changed. We have a decent first 11 but, yet again under Duchatelet and Meire, we have no depth!
We have no affinity to the management and an almost complete failure of trust (it's gone completely for me). That backdrop just won't encourage anyone who might be thinking of going, but I don't see the club even trying.
Thing is were 5,000 supporters down I don't think in League 1 we will attract many new supporters. And at a guess at least 3,500 are saying they are not coming back till the Belgians are gone. I'd like to know how many season ticket holders we have who come because of the £175 know they will be missing 6 -8 games a season
It needs a bit of imagination and an owner and management team with the wit and wherewithal to implement. Look at Bradford in this league. Foreign owner comes in but, I think importantly because of how they run football there, comes with a German thinking cap on. They got their act together pretty much immediately.
I have seen Charlton in the third division several times since the 70s. I'm a fan. I'm not bothered by the division and would be there now if not for these idiots. I have friends in the industry who say that Katrien is very personable...but she isn't cut out for this and we have no-marks like TK who are also out of their depth.
The sad thing is, it's not difficult. It does need application and a bit of hard work. But it isn't difficult.
I wonder how many tax dodgers from UOG took up the offer? 10, 20 maybe?
Are all the students at UOG even back yet anyway?
If they are back then surely it was the end of freshers week.
Seems an odd time to do the promotion. Would've thought it'd have attracted more in a few weeks when people are more settled in and aren't at the end of a week where everyones been going out every night.
Agreed, a student newly arriving at Uni and maybe in London for the first time would have a load of things to do, probably more enticing than 3rd division football. Personally, I only started going regularly to football after leaving University, as a break from the boredom of my working and domestic life!
Nice sunny Saturday, team had an ok start to the season. Looking round seeing it so empty is pretty demoralising.
Noticeable thing was there was a well publicised £5 offer this week in the North Lower and a supposed flooding of Greenwich Uni students. Yet the North Lower looked now more populated than normal, probably less busy than the other Saturday games.
I know full well it's the Roland / Katrien effect and we 'just have to get used to it', but crowd wise even with some success it's going to be a long haul to getting crowds back up in the future.
Selling just 2k tickets for that Legends game was a real eye-opener to many who thought that 10k fans disillusioned with the regime will just turn up again.
So many lifetime fans of 20,30,40 years have just literally parked it. Makes me so demoralised and angry at what has evolved over the last few years, i fear the impact is going to be so long-lasting.
Nice sunny Saturday, team had an ok start to the season. Looking round seeing it so empty is pretty demoralising.
Noticeable thing was there was a well publicised £5 offer this week in the North Lower and a supposed flooding of Greenwich Uni students. Yet the North Lower looked now more populated than normal, probably less busy than the other Saturday games.
I know full well it's the Roland / Katrien effect and we 'just have to get used to it', but crowd wise even with some success it's going to be a long haul to getting crowds back up in the future.
Selling just 2k tickets for that Legends game was a real eye-opener to many who thought that 10k fans disillusioned with the regime will just turn up again.
So many lifetime fans of 20,30,40 years have just literally parked it. Makes me so demoralised and angry at what has evolved over the last few years, i fear the impact is going to be so long-lasting.
Thoughts?
Sadly, I cannot but agree with everything you say. My belief is that Duchatalet is something of a sociopath. We are dealing with a man who has no empathy or understanding of human empathy or emotions, this is often found in highly successful business men, they have no time for such frivolous attachments. What makes him tick are not normal or rational traits for the average citizen. Sociopaths can come across as very charming and plausible individuals and function quite happily in society without upsetting too many people along the way, they are not necessarily unpleasant to deal with or be around.....he is a great business man but with his football empire he has stepped outside of his comfort zone and is way way out of his depth. He thinks only in terms of this empire as a vision of self grandiose achievement, he feels not one jot about the attachment and feelings that us fans have invested over many decades simply because he doesn't have the same natural human instincts, he can't begin to understand it because in him those emotions either simply don't exist or at the very least mean very very little, in short he has a hollow place in his heart. This football empire is a plaything for him. I say this because he's losing money hand over fist, yet doesn't seem to care that much, ask yourself if he did, then wouldn't he have got rid long ago? Remind me, when was the last time he came to The Valley to actually watch us play....he has no attachment to Charlton as a football club (least ways in the way we all do) and we can do absolutely NOTHING to change that very sad state of affairs, it's deep in his DNA. I'm no expert in these matters but I think this is the sort of guy we are dealing with(others with more knowledge please feel free to put me straight) and for that reason we have absolutely no idea where he's taking us and more disturbingly.......I don't think he does either, because he doesn't really care!
So Roly & Kat can't even sell a game and a pint for a fiver to local students.
Surely even the thickest skinned narcissist starts to realise that maybe, just maybe, they really are feckin' useless!!!
Or maybe that it is much tougher to tap into new markets than you think...
The whole student model is flawed. Most football supporting students will already have a cast iron football allegiance before rocking up to college for 3 years of jaeger bombs and chlamydia.
They may attend the odd game but they'll never be "supporters" in the main. But to this lot that won't matter.
Moved away from London so can't attend as much as I would like to but I personally think it is time to go back en masse as a fan base as life is too short to let incompetent owners keep you away from a club you've gone to for generations before the muppet show rolled into SE7 and will continue to do so long after they've gone.
They're killing the club slowly in terms of its soul and character but fans staying away long term could unintentionally expediate that potential avenue. They'll get bored and clear off one day and a shame for so many die hard fans to miss going because of them.
The number of e-mails I get from the Club inviting me to Curry nights and/or any other of a host of ill-conceived themed match-day events is further testament to Meire's continuing penchant for the 'market it more brand it more' philosophy which she outlined at an early stage in Dublin.
Anyone for a glass of prosecco?
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see related afternoon tea thread.
Unbelievable just unbelievable - is it because Peterborough are known as The Posh - could that be the tenuous connection? Maybe this is already mentioned on the other thread!!!
I think it's a plus that people aren't attending. The low attendances are the clearest sign we have that people do not accept this vile regime. Sadly, we've not had a piggy thrown in months. I can't remember seeing anything in the press or hearing anything on the radio about fan's discontent this season. The promising early start, with British players and an English manager, gave the more forgiving elements of the club's supportership the opportunity to claim that lessons had been learnt. A few bad results on though and the facade has gone, those who said that the squad was too thin are being proved right. Those who said that Duchatelet would never manage the club properly are, as ever, correct in their assessment. The glimmer of hope that we could get promoted was enough to silence the dissenters. Only the empty seats told, and continue to tell, the true story: we do not accept their pathetic stewardship of our club. What we really need is for someone to lead more protest activity. But in the absence of that, let's just enjoy the fact that every empty seat is shouting 'Fuck you, Duchetelet. Fuck you, your twisted Turingian hallucination and your hopeless incompetent underling'!
Of course you are right though, in the long term low attendances are not good for the club. People will slip away, some perhaps never to return. The eventual re-build, when it finally comes, will be slower and harder as a result of lower attendances now. But that time is not now. There will never be a rebuild all the time that Duchatelet is the owner. There will never be a rebuild all the time that Meire is the the hobby-honcho. It's no good getting sad or angry or depressed about low attendances. Accept them for what they are, a clear and unwavering signal of defiance to our Belgian overlords. One day we'll rebuild this club. That will be the time to worry about low attendances, not now.
Excellent post Stig, I am one who will never accept this cancer within our club but one thing puzzles me. Pinnochio told us that she didn't care if we turned up or not as that leave the way open for those who just wanted to watch football without the protests etc etc to take our places. Indeed apparently the club were missing a trick by not encouraging attendance from SW London. Whatever happened to the new wave of support ?
Comments
Have a look at 79-81 if you want to use that kind of argument - the tier three Charlton average in 1980/81 was TWO people lower than the preceding season in tier two.
What we know is that the Charlton gates and season-ticket sales are well below where they were in this division 2009-12, and that there is significant alienation among fans towards the owner and management, which wasn't true then - and this despite ultra-cheap season tickets being available.
In the meantime, average attendances elsewhere have been stable or seen modest growth.
I was genuinely planning to go to the Wigan game and only realised at 8.30pm that I'd completely forgotten. That would have been unthinkable once, but actually I was pleased, and that's before the extent of the defeat became apparent.
I used to say, 'I will get a season ticket the day after Roland sells', but I doubt whether that's true anymore. People move on.
You might say, 'Well you were never a proper fan then.' Fine, maybe I wasn't, but if you want to understand low attendances, it's part of the answer.
02/03 was the start of my 2nd year at uni and I just remember thinking, I'm missing a lot of good nights out here because every Saturday I'm getting on a coach and going to Bolton or Everton. That was the only reason I stopped the away games, still went to all the home games
I remember the first home game I voluntarily decided to miss was when we sent Palace down (lads holiday). I had been to every home league game from when we beat Peterborough 5-1 in Apr 94. It was my Saturday. If you'd have said to me I had to miss a home game during that time (Apr 94 - May 05) I'd have been very perturbed
Then when you do miss one, although it feels odd, you can easily miss a few more. You have family commitments, birthdays, holidays etc.
I appreciate it's different for different people, but I highlight this because I can understand that over your lifetime, some may have periods of fluctuation when they can go etc
I must admit, I could never get the 'not attending because of what league we're in etc'
Your club is your club and if we drop to the conference I'd still go
Not that it matters where you sit, you seemed to spend the whole game looking at your phone :-)
If they are back then surely it was the end of freshers week.
Seems an odd time to do the promotion. Would've thought it'd have attracted more in a few weeks when people are more settled in and aren't at the end of a week where everyones been going out every night.
I have seen Charlton in the third division several times since the 70s. I'm a fan. I'm not bothered by the division and would be there now if not for these idiots. I have friends in the industry who say that Katrien is very personable...but she isn't cut out for this and we have no-marks like TK who are also out of their depth.
The sad thing is, it's not difficult. It does need application and a bit of hard work. But it isn't difficult.
;-)
They may attend the odd game but they'll never be "supporters" in the main. But to this lot that won't matter.
Moved away from London so can't attend as much as I would like to but I personally think it is time to go back en masse as a fan base as life is too short to let incompetent owners keep you away from a club you've gone to for generations before the muppet show rolled into SE7 and will continue to do so long after they've gone.
They're killing the club slowly in terms of its soul and character but fans staying away long term could unintentionally expediate that potential avenue. They'll get bored and clear off one day and a shame for so many die hard fans to miss going because of them.