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A peculiar case of a fence

razilrazil
in Not Sports Related
Having a slow day and for those of you who like the weird and wonderful slightly dull and downright silly stuff that goes on between neighbours..

As you may know I have a place in Norfolk that I let out when I'm not there as a holiday cottage https://us.v-cdn.net/5000498/uploads/FileUpload/9d/64cbd7d839850b231d2de2ddd7ddec.png

(we have some weekends available in Nov/Dec if you're interested)

Anyway


I tried to put up a fence in the back garden, which until then was open to a courtyard with the (west) neighbour (The Granary) and their neighbour (West Barn).

I mentioned it to the West Barn lady, and she said there was a clause in some document somewhere that said I couldn't. So I checked with the conveyancer as I was a bit concered they hadn't done their job. They assured me there was nothing in my deeds that said I couldn't

Specifically it seems that whoever registered my deeds drew through some of the clauses referred to but not the one that refers to the fence/hedge.

I can only assume that it was felt the clause only applied to the other two properties which due to the L shape where their plots join would mean an issue with light which I can appreciate, either that or a mistake was made.

Anyway it's left me with a rangling argument with the nasty piece of work who is the Witch of West Barn as to whether I can erect the fence.

I suggested she approach her legal person who she had already been talking to (so she said) to get clarification, as I would rather settle the issue through a rational and sensible clarification of the position, than get into a full blown dispute.

She took so long doing this and no action that I eventually erected a fence, to which she went ballistic. Even trying to force her way into my property. She's a piece of work I can tell you. I have access over her drive way, and she insists that no one stops, parks or unloads on it, and of course the odd person does, despite detailed briefings for our guests, to which I normally I get a text/call. She has even taken to placing objects, brushwood, a trailer, etc to try and block people using it - amusingly she actually was completely unaware of the details of the access I have (which bear her signature), and was in fact blocking my right of way intentionally.

So to finish the tale so far, I suggested to her that if she is correct about the clauses, then she needs to take this up with the Land Registry who allowed a Freehold to be registered in conflict with her interests, and that she pursues that line. I can't really see them agreeing to change it without compensating me/me agreeing, but its an interesting case in point - for me at least - that someone can register a freehold and this can potentially happen.

I am still waiting for the result of her latest discussion with her solicitor.





Comments

  • LargeAddickLargeAddick
    razil - is the cottage dog friendly? If so do you have a website advertising it so I can check it out for a possible booking?
  • ShootersHillGuruShootersHillGuru
    Worth a would ya ?
  • razilrazil
    we do allow one well behaved dog
  • razilrazil
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Worth a would ya ?

    if you like dried up miserable old spinsters/bitch from hell types.. still someone for everyone right?
  • razilrazil
    LargeAddick said:

    razil - is the cottage dog friendly? If so do you have a website advertising it so I can check it out for a possible booking?

    We also have a downstairs en-suite double room for the less mobile, there are some steps on the lower level, 3 shallow ones on the pathway, and one to get in, and one between living room and kitchen so not quite wheel chair friendly
  • cafcfancafcfan
    Depending on certain factors see here - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/20/fences_gates_and_garden_walls
    - it may be that you cannot erect a fence without planning consent. (If it is not replacing an existing fence).

    So if your property (or hers) is listed or in a curtilage of a listed building she may have you banged to rights and you'll have to take it down. From the picture it looks like a candidate for being a listed building.
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  • Johnnysummers5Johnnysummers5
    Sorry I have come on the wrong thread by mistake, I am trying to sell some tomfoolery but I have the wrong fence
  • razilrazil
    cafcfan said:

    Depending on certain factors see here - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/20/fences_gates_and_garden_walls
    - it may be that you cannot erect a fence without planning consent. (If it is not replacing an existing fence).

    So if your property (or hers) is listed or in a curtilage of a listed building she may have you banged to rights and you'll have to take it down. From the picture it looks like a candidate for being a listed building.

    you are correct - the farmhouse (to the East) is grade 2 listed and thus we would need permission for a permanent fence. She doesn't know this, and the fence I am erecting is 'temporary' - the boundaries are very clear too.
  • T_C_ET_C_E
    razil said:

    we do allow one well behaved dog

    Doh, bollox. ;)
  • RedroboRedrobo
    razil said:

    cafcfan said:

    Depending on certain factors see here - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/20/fences_gates_and_garden_walls
    - it may be that you cannot erect a fence without planning consent. (If it is not replacing an existing fence).

    So if your property (or hers) is listed or in a curtilage of a listed building she may have you banged to rights and you'll have to take it down. From the picture it looks like a candidate for being a listed building.

    you are correct - the farmhouse (to the East) is grade 2 listed and thus we would need permission for a permanent fence. She doesn't know this, and the fence I am erecting is 'temporary' - the boundaries are very clear too.
    So you are clearly in the wrong then and compounding this by forcing an old lady to go to the expense of consulting lawyers because you just want to build a fence on a property that has stood for 100s of years and has managed thus far without one. Temporary fence my arse.

    The only way it is temporary is that you will be asked to take it down. I suggest you appologise, take down the fence and offer to pay any fees she has incurred so far.
  • cafcdave123cafcdave123
    Redrobo said:

    razil said:

    cafcfan said:

    Depending on certain factors see here - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/20/fences_gates_and_garden_walls
    - it may be that you cannot erect a fence without planning consent. (If it is not replacing an existing fence).

    So if your property (or hers) is listed or in a curtilage of a listed building she may have you banged to rights and you'll have to take it down. From the picture it looks like a candidate for being a listed building.

    you are correct - the farmhouse (to the East) is grade 2 listed and thus we would need permission for a permanent fence. She doesn't know this, and the fence I am erecting is 'temporary' - the boundaries are very clear too.
    So you are clearly in the wrong then and compounding this by forcing an old lady to go to the expense of consulting lawyers because you just want to build a fence on a property that has stood for 100s of years and has managed thus far without one. Temporary fence my arse.

    The only way it is temporary is that you will be asked to take it down. I suggest you appologise, take down the fence and offer to pay any fees she has incurred so far.
    Is she related to you ?
  • razilrazil
    edited October 2017
    Redrobo said:

    razil said:

    cafcfan said:

    Depending on certain factors see here - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/20/fences_gates_and_garden_walls
    - it may be that you cannot erect a fence without planning consent. (If it is not replacing an existing fence).

    So if your property (or hers) is listed or in a curtilage of a listed building she may have you banged to rights and you'll have to take it down. From the picture it looks like a candidate for being a listed building.

    you are correct - the farmhouse (to the East) is grade 2 listed and thus we would need permission for a permanent fence. She doesn't know this, and the fence I am erecting is 'temporary' - the boundaries are very clear too.
    So you are clearly in the wrong then and compounding this by forcing an old lady to go to the expense of consulting lawyers because you just want to build a fence on a property that has stood for 100s of years and has managed thus far without one. Temporary fence my arse.

    The only way it is temporary is that you will be asked to take it down. I suggest you appologise, take down the fence and offer to pay any fees she has incurred so far.
    I am allowed to erect a temporary fence, I spoke to the planning office on this matter already - I am doing so to prompt her to act to enforce a supposed restriction which I believe to be incorrect (according to legal advice) so entirely justified. In fact out of good will I took down the fence I put up, while she took advice (supposedly).

    I could grow a hedge, instead of a temporary fence (which can easily within minutes be removed) either would be acceptable in terms of the listed status, and neither compliant with what she believes are the restrictions - none of which are in my Deeds.


    My biggest concern was that my Conveyancer failed in their duty to spot the issue, and I would have to sue them to recover the reduction in value of not having a private garden; rather than just to upset her.


  • DippenhallDippenhall
    Have you asked a lawyer who can enforce the restriction. I recall reading that only the original party who includes restrictive covenants in a land transfer can enforce them. If it was your neighbour who originally owned the property then it might be enforceable, otherwise the effectiveness of the restriction might be zero and you can effectively do what you want if it is not a nuisance or against statutory planning and building regs.
  • razilrazil
    Dippenhall said:

    Have you asked a lawyer who can enforce the restriction. I recall reading that only the original party who includes restrictive covenants in a land transfer can enforce them. If it was your neighbour who originally owned the property then it might be enforceable, otherwise the effectiveness of the restriction might be zero and you can effectively do what you want if it is not a nuisance or against statutory planning and building regs.


    No but its a good shout. I believe the original covenants were made between the former owners of the farmhouse (who owned all the properties) and buyers. My legal advice suggested the document a purchase agreement, and an old version of my deeds were no longer legal documents.

  • addixaddix
    razil said:

    ... She has even taken to placing objects, brushwood, a trailer, etc to try and block people using it - amusingly she actually was completely unaware of the details of the access I have (which bear her signature), and was in fact blocking my right of way intentionally.
    ...

    This bit reminded me of something I read last week of a similar nature: http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/25/couple-left-with-200000-court-bill-after-their-childish-row-with-neighbour-7027359/
    Maybe print out the story and give her a copy.
  • ricky_ottoricky_otto
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Worth a would ya ?

    Billy Bingham
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  • razilrazil
    cafcfan said:

    @seth plum will be along soon to discuss the pros and cons of a hard or soft border.

    doesn't tend to work with children/labradors..
  • Covered EndCovered End
    Razil you appear to have a fence fetish. I was confident it would be "your thread" before I opened it.
    Redrobo may have been quite forthright, but if I understand correctly, then I tend to agree with him.
    You seem to be messing with this ladies life and I don't fully understand why. Sorry.
  • razilrazil
    @Covered End

    I bought the property and intended to put a fence. I courteously mentioned it to her and she said there was a clause saying I couldn't. I was surprised and worried about the value of the place I'd just bought, and why it wasn't raised in any searches. I consulted my legal people and they said no such clause applied.

    I told her this, and we mutually agreed she would go away and consult her solicitor - via her insurance company apparently. The fence doesnt actually border her property, nor does it impede her view, as the farmhouse has since put a wall in and grown a 10 foot hedge.

    She did nothing for a year, and continued to do nothing despite further prodding.

    I was eventually was obliged to prompt her in to action, told her I was doing it, and immediately took down the fence I'd put up out of goodwill when she promised again she would consult legal advice.

    I've even suggested she take it up with the land registry.

    I'm afraid I therefore don't feel I'm being unreasonable.









  • razilrazil
    I'm only a part-timer.. I do try and respect my neighbours though, I also have my own interests to protect however.
  • ricky_ottoricky_otto
    Covered End said:

    Razil you appear to have a fence fetish. I was confident it would be "your thread" before I opened it.
    Redrobo may have been quite forthright, but if I understand correctly, then I tend to agree with him.
    You seem to be messing with this ladies life and I don't fully understand why. Sorry.

    He does like to get his hands on a bit of wood.
  • cliveclive
    People should not let these things come between them.
  • A-R-T-H-U-RA-R-T-H-U-R
    edited October 2017
    Well I can see both sides of this situation.
    Sorry if it seems like I'm sitting on the....oh dear
  • OaksterOakster
    Beware of upsetting country folk Razil...she will have relatives

    image
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