I wonder if there is a real danger of minimising the modern risk due to the balls being lighter?
Lighter balls also move faster, and the kinetic energy of the ball, which gets transferred to the brain when heading the ball, depends on both mass and velocity.
But - and here's the physics lesson - doubling its mass "only" doubles the ball's kinetic energy, while doubling its velocity increases the KE fourfold, and trippling the speed gives 9 times the KE.
Perhaps in future something will be done to balls (lower internal pressure?) to make them less "bouncy" and hence less easy to get them travelling faster than the old leather balls. Until that time it seems wise find a way to encourage children and teenage players to play with their feet but not their heads.
The thing is, we don't know. If we had to bet on it, I suspect it is better to head a light ball. I do remember a few occasions when I headed a ball and felt groggy for a minute or so when I played. It was a mixture of the ball and not timing the header right. Heading the ball perfectly and you feel hardly anything. I scored quite a few headed goals, but the ones I remember affecting me were the defensive clearances.
Now at the age of 55, pains in my body are remnants from playing football. I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise if the brain is affected too. I certainly hope not, but it is a fear. Not just for professional footballers, but anybody who played and headed balls.
The thing is, we don't know. If we had to bet on it, I suspect it is better to head a light ball. I do remember a few occasions when I headed a ball and felt groggy for a minute or so when I played. It was a mixture of the ball and not timing the header right. Heading the ball perfectly and you feel hardly anything. I scored quite a few headed goals, but the ones I remember affecting me were the defensive clearances.
Now at the age of 55, pains in my body are remnants from playing football. I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise if the brain is affected too. I certainly hope not, but it is a fear. Not just for professional footballers, but anybody who played and headed balls.
Head trauma is not good for the brain - the more I learnt over the years about brain injuries and the repercussions the more obvious it became sport doesn't take them seriously enough. Dementia, MND and Parkinsons are awful conditions and we can't afford to carry risks that can be avoided.
The PFA needs to be funding more research and less to its vile boss who is not fit for purpose.
I wonder if there is a real danger of minimising the modern risk due to the balls being lighter?
Lighter balls also move faster, and the kinetic energy of the ball, which gets transferred to the brain when heading the ball, depends on both mass and velocity.
But - and here's the physics lesson - doubling its mass "only" doubles the ball's kinetic energy, while doubling its velocity increases the KE fourfold, and trippling the speed gives 9 times the KE.
Perhaps in future something will be done to balls (lower internal pressure?) to make them less "bouncy" and hence less easy to get them travelling faster than the old leather balls. Until that time it seems wise find a way to encourage children and teenage players to play with their feet but not their heads.
The solution could be the adoption of a futsal ball, instead of a traditional football, for training purposes in age-group football. A futsal ball is easier to control, bounces less and helps develop "on the floor" playing, passing and shooting. It would not be a big step to mandate the use of these balls for - say - all games up to under-14.
Have to give credit to Talk sport today for its discussion on dementia. Some interesting points raised and damning comments made about the negligence of the football authorities.
Some very sad stories and a lot of ex players must be worried about developing Neuro degenerative conditions.
I really do think the main problem is the amount of heading done in training.If you look at a game,how many times does one person head the ball,other than the centre forward and centre backs,not many.Also many of the players recently diagnosed,Stiles,Bobby Charlton,Martin Peters where not prolific headers of a football. I know many people like myself who played local football for many years,none of them despite being late 70s are at the moment suffering from dementia. What about boxing,surely if heading a football is dangerous,I should think getting punched in the head thousands of times is much more risky.We are talking about banning heading in junior football,but nothing about banning junior boxing clubs. Really dont know the answer,but dementia can affect anyone not just footballers.
I really do think the main problem is the amount of heading done in training.If you look at a game,how many times does one person head the ball,other than the centre forward and centre backs,not many.Also many of the players recently diagnosed,Stiles,Bobby Charlton,Martin Peters where not prolific headers of a football. I know many people like myself who played local football for many years,none of them despite being late 70s are at the moment suffering from dementia. What about boxing,surely if heading a football is dangerous,I should think getting punched in the head thousands of times is much more risky.We are talking about banning heading in junior football,but nothing about banning junior boxing clubs. Really dont know the answer,but dementia can affect anyone not just footballers.
Plenty of evidence now re the dangers in football and how it increases your risk of neurodegenerative disease. Football authorities don't seem interested. It's a pity more fans don't take an interest.
Something needs to be done asap.
As for boxing it's another sport that doesn't take it seriously enough either.
I really do think the main problem is the amount of heading done in training.If you look at a game,how many times does one person head the ball,other than the centre forward and centre backs,not many.Also many of the players recently diagnosed,Stiles,Bobby Charlton,Martin Peters where not prolific headers of a football. I know many people like myself who played local football for many years,none of them despite being late 70s are at the moment suffering from dementia. What about boxing,surely if heading a football is dangerous,I should think getting punched in the head thousands of times is much more risky.We are talking about banning heading in junior football,but nothing about banning junior boxing clubs. Really dont know the answer,but dementia can affect anyone not just footballers.
Plenty of evidence now re the dangers in football and how it increases your risk of neurodegenerative disease. Football authorities don't seem interested. It's a pity more fans don't take an interest.
Something needs to be done asap.
As for boxing it's another sport that doesn't take it seriously enough either.
It is likely that heading footballs does increase brain problems.I played until my 50s a lot of the time at centre half.I now have Parkinsons,did the football contribute,I dont know,never will.But anyone can have a heart attack,but dont help it on its way,by getting 10 stone overweight,anyone can get lung cancer,but dont help it out by smoking.Illnesses and health problems will always affect the fittest of people(squash players have collapsed mid game)Struggling to get my point across here,but only a tiny fraction of dementia sufferers have played professional football,and a very small percentage of pro players have actually got the illness. The point is,you cannot stop heading a ball in senior football,every time a player goes for a ball , a clash of heads and damage is always there,a boxer knows the risks,so what can you do.The only hope is that contuinual research does find some way of helping sufferers.
I really do think the main problem is the amount of heading done in training.If you look at a game,how many times does one person head the ball,other than the centre forward and centre backs,not many.Also many of the players recently diagnosed,Stiles,Bobby Charlton,Martin Peters where not prolific headers of a football. I know many people like myself who played local football for many years,none of them despite being late 70s are at the moment suffering from dementia. What about boxing,surely if heading a football is dangerous,I should think getting punched in the head thousands of times is much more risky.We are talking about banning heading in junior football,but nothing about banning junior boxing clubs. Really dont know the answer,but dementia can affect anyone not just footballers.
Plenty of evidence now re the dangers in football and how it increases your risk of neurodegenerative disease. Football authorities don't seem interested. It's a pity more fans don't take an interest.
Something needs to be done asap.
As for boxing it's another sport that doesn't take it seriously enough either.
It is likely that heading footballs does increase brain problems.I played until my 50s a lot of the time at centre half.I now have Parkinsons,did the football contribute,I dont know,never will.But anyone can have a heart attack,but dont help it on its way,by getting 10 stone overweight,anyone can get lung cancer,but dont help it out by smoking.Illnesses and health problems will always affect the fittest of people(squash players have collapsed mid game)Struggling to get my point across here,but only a tiny fraction of dementia sufferers have played professional football,and a very small percentage of pro players have actually got the illness. The point is,you cannot stop heading a ball in senior football,every time a player goes for a ball , a clash of heads and damage is always there,a boxer knows the risks,so what can you do.The only hope is that contuinual research does find some way of helping sufferers.
Recent research is suggesting there is a much higher risk of players developing neurodegenerative conditions. Listening to Geoff Hurst and Martin Keown talking yesterday they said they need to cut down on the amount of heading that was done in training.
A lot of ex players are potentially suffering from industrial injury and as more is learnt the authorities will have to take some action rather than largely ignore it. The PFA seems to be failing in its duty of care to ex players.
Yes the PFA is burying its head in the sand. Another thing to remember is the different condition which todays players play under. When most of the players recently diagnosed with dementia were playing,you had mud baths,balls weighing a ton and a more relaxed approach to physical contact. Also not until late 60s were subs introduced.,therefore if a player went off,you were down to 10 men.Consequently players played on when clearly they should not have done. Then you had the on field treatment,in the 6os and even later it was basically a guy in track suit with a sponge and a bucket,not like now when the physios are highly qualified and will not allow a player to play on when he should not. I like to think that when todays players reach old age ,there will be nothing like the problem we have now.
Yes the PFA is burying its head in the sand. Another thing to remember is the different condition which todays players play under. When most of the players recently diagnosed with dementia were playing,you had mud baths,balls weighing a ton and a more relaxed approach to physical contact. Also not until late 60s were subs introduced.,therefore if a player went off,you were down to 10 men.Consequently players played on when clearly they should not have done. Then you had the on field treatment,in the 6os and even later it was basically a guy in track suit with a sponge and a bucket,not like now when the physios are highly qualified and will not allow a player to play on when he should not. I like to think that when todays players reach old age ,there will be nothing like the problem we have now.
The evidence suggests the weight of the ball is a red herring as modern balls travel much faster - the force is pretty similar.
Head injury protocol in sports is not good enough - there is simply no way a physio can do an accurate assessment based on the tests available and players are still allowed back on who should have been removed from the field of play.
I think most experts in the field of brain injury would like to see protocols tightened up. Players will invariably want to stay on and a physio cannot make an accurate assessment in that envirobment. Concussion needs to be taken far more seriously.
It is a big problem for football as heading as such an intrinsic part of it. But the question has to be, does heading the ball contribute to the early onset of dementia? If the answer is yes, then something has to be done. When you ask the question, you can't allow what you would like the answer to be to influence you.
Generally, the question I have is whether it is heading or the grogginess you may feel when you have say a clash of heads or when you don't get your header right or even when the ball gets slammed into your face. Or is it just the repeated act of heading, even if you don't feel any grogginess. If it is the first set of causes, you may not solve the problem by outlawing heading when it is the general ruff and tumble of the game.
The other factor is that balls have got lighter and are easier to head. Maybe some more could be done to make them even easier to head without compromising too much on the other qualities of the ball. Having just gone by my mid fifties, I still recall heading the medicine balls of old and if we see it is affecting people that headed those balls, does it correlate that it will affect later generations. Sadly we are at a point where there are more questions than answers and we need to get the answers, whether we like them or not a.s.a.p.
It is a big problem for football as heading as such an intrinsic part of it. But the question has to be, does heading the ball contribute to the early onset of dementia? If the answer is yes, then something has to be done. When you ask the question, you can't allow what you would like the answer to be to influence you.
Generally, the question I have is whether it is heading or the grogginess you may feel when you have say a clash of heads or when you don't get your header right or even when the ball gets slammed into your face. Or is it just the repeated act of heading, even if you don't feel any grogginess. If it is the first set of causes, you may not solve the problem by outlawing heading when it is the general ruff and tumble of the game.
The other factor is that balls have got lighter and are easier to head. Maybe some more could be done to make them even easier to head without compromising too much on the other qualities of the ball. Having just gone by my mid fifties, I still recall heading the medicine balls of old and if we see it is affecting people that headed those balls, does it correlate that it will affect later generations. Sadly we are at a point where there are more questions than answers and we need to get the answers, whether we like them or not a.s.a.p.
Given the lack of research you can obviously see what answer the football authorities are hoping for - ex-players are certainly not their priority. The lack of response from the PFA is pretty disgraceful.
As someone said the other day it's not right that pushing forward on the issue is left to the likes of Dawn Astle, the daughter of the Jeff. Her campaigning has been amazing but at what cost to her emotionally?
Our national sport is awash with money yet they've spent a pittance on research in this area. The figures for ex players with neurodegenerative conditions are concerning when compared to the norm in the general population.
A lot of ex players are now speaking out on the issue along with many families.
I really admire those families who are sharing their stories out of concern for others. Dementia is a truly awful condition
Maurice Setters apparently had dementia as well and the figures in football are very worrying when compared to the general public.
The PFA's lack of action and complacency in this area is an utter disgrace especially when the useless turd Gordon Taylor picks up a £2m salary. He is simply a crook.
It has been left to families to lobby for research and that is a disgrace in a sport awash with money.
Ex footballers and their families deserve protection and help - the authorities seem only concerned in helping a minority of wealthy individuals in the game become richer.
Watched the intervirw with Steve Thompson earlier. Absolutely awful that at 42 he has dementia the saddest bits were not his lack of memory of rugby games but him talking about the impact on his young family. He's worries he'll be looking after his kids and just not remember what he's supposed to do. Knows he's gonna become a burden to his family at some point and described it as the end of their lives. He really didn't sound in a good place.
Watched the intervirw with Steve Thompson earlier. Absolutely awful that at 42 he has dementia the saddest bits were not his lack of memory of rugby games but him talking about the impact on his young family. He's worries he'll be looking after his kids and just not remember what he's supposed to do. Knows he's gonna become a burden to his family at some point and described it as the end of their lives. He really didn't sound in a good place.
Hearing the cases of Rugby players like Steve Thompson and Alix Popham was quite shocking as they are young men just turned 40 and should be looking forward to the second halves of their lives.
Protective head gear for All Rugby players must be possible as they don't have to head the ball.
Football would need a different design but it must be possible in 2020 for innovation to take place and make the sport 20% safer.
Compared to the Footballs that Jeff Astle headed in his career, the modern ball shouldn't have quite the same impact but the clash of heads take their toll as we are seeing in so many cases.
Watched the intervirw with Steve Thompson earlier. Absolutely awful that at 42 he has dementia the saddest bits were not his lack of memory of rugby games but him talking about the impact on his young family. He's worries he'll be looking after his kids and just not remember what he's supposed to do. Knows he's gonna become a burden to his family at some point and described it as the end of their lives. He really didn't sound in a good place.
only just seen this - utterly heartbreaking. For me watching johnny kick the final points on my parents dodgy analogue 15 inch box tv seems like yesterday.
Hearing the cases of Rugby players like Steve Thompson and Alix Popham was quite shocking as they are young men just turned 40 and should be looking forward to the second halves of their lives.
Protective head gear for All Rugby players must be possible as they don't have to head the ball.
Football would need a different design but it must be possible in 2020 for innovation to take place and make the sport 20% safer.
Compared to the Footballs that Jeff Astle headed in his career, the modern ball shouldn't have quite the same impact but the clash of heads take their toll as we are seeing in so many cases.
Research seems to suggest the impact of heading is the same with the modern ball - the force is similar(presumably it travels faster). The sheer number of concussions(or microconcussions) in rugby is the issue and as players have got bigger and fitter I imagine we will sadly hear more stories of players with CTE.
The Chelsea keeper Peter Bonnetti who died earlier this year having suffered from dementia which his family believe may have been contributed to by the numerous concussions in his career.
Rugby and football could presumably work together on this?
More so than any other impact sport I suspect, Rugby players over the last 40 years have become stronger, taller and faster. The players of the 70s and 80s looked like ordinary blokes whereas now they all look like superhuman adonises
Personally I find it less interesting to watch now as a spectacle, but more importantly what affect has this transformation made on the impacts players suffer when they clash?
Remember the Underwood's as flying wingers; now the guys from the Pacific islands, are all clones of the amazing Jonah Lumo who are 120kg of muscle and taking hits from these guys can't be good for the body.
I don't see rugby's substitution rule surviving long in the wake of this lawsuit. Scrums and rucks are probably going to be unrecognisable too. What a horrible bastard of a disease.
It's absolutely horrendous that young guys in their 40s are being diagnosed - I hope they get all the support they need. Not sure where rugby goes from here if more cases surface?
Comments
Lighter balls also move faster, and the kinetic energy of the ball, which gets transferred to the brain when heading the ball, depends on both mass and velocity.
But - and here's the physics lesson - doubling its mass "only" doubles the ball's kinetic energy, while doubling its velocity increases the KE fourfold, and trippling the speed gives 9 times the KE.
Perhaps in future something will be done to balls (lower internal pressure?) to make them less "bouncy" and hence less easy to get them travelling faster than the old leather balls. Until that time it seems wise find a way to encourage children and teenage players to play with their feet but not their heads.
Now at the age of 55, pains in my body are remnants from playing football. I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise if the brain is affected too. I certainly hope not, but it is a fear. Not just for professional footballers, but anybody who played and headed balls.
The PFA needs to be funding more research and less to its vile boss who is not fit for purpose.
Some very sad stories and a lot of ex players must be worried about developing Neuro degenerative conditions.
I know many people like myself who played local football for many years,none of them despite being late 70s are at the moment suffering from dementia.
What about boxing,surely if heading a football is dangerous,I should think getting punched in the head thousands of times is much more risky.We are talking about banning heading in junior football,but nothing about banning junior boxing clubs.
Really dont know the answer,but dementia can affect anyone not just footballers.
http://www.thejeffastlefoundation.co.uk/our-story
Plenty of evidence now re the dangers in football and how it increases your risk of neurodegenerative disease. Football authorities don't seem interested. It's a pity more fans don't take an interest.
Something needs to be done asap.
As for boxing it's another sport that doesn't take it seriously enough either.
The point is,you cannot stop heading a ball in senior football,every time a player goes for a ball , a clash of heads and damage is always there,a boxer knows the risks,so what can you do.The only hope is that contuinual research does find some way of helping sufferers.
A lot of ex players are potentially suffering from industrial injury and as more is learnt the authorities will have to take some action rather than largely ignore it. The PFA seems to be failing in its duty of care to ex players.
Another thing to remember is the different condition which todays players play under.
When most of the players recently diagnosed with dementia were playing,you had mud baths,balls weighing a ton and a more relaxed approach to physical contact.
Also not until late 60s were subs introduced.,therefore if a player went off,you were down to 10 men.Consequently players played on when clearly they should not have done.
Then you had the on field treatment,in the 6os and even later it was basically a guy in track suit with a sponge and a bucket,not like now when the physios are highly qualified and will not allow a player to play on when he should not.
I like to think that when todays players reach old age ,there will be nothing like the problem we have now.
Head injury protocol in sports is not good enough - there is simply no way a physio can do an accurate assessment based on the tests available and players are still allowed back on who should have been removed from the field of play.
I think most experts in the field of brain injury would like to see protocols tightened up. Players will invariably want to stay on and a physio cannot make an accurate assessment in that envirobment. Concussion needs to be taken far more seriously.
Disturbing figures.
Generally, the question I have is whether it is heading or the grogginess you may feel when you have say a clash of heads or when you don't get your header right or even when the ball gets slammed into your face. Or is it just the repeated act of heading, even if you don't feel any grogginess. If it is the first set of causes, you may not solve the problem by outlawing heading when it is the general ruff and tumble of the game.
The other factor is that balls have got lighter and are easier to head. Maybe some more could be done to make them even easier to head without compromising too much on the other qualities of the ball. Having just gone by my mid fifties, I still recall heading the medicine balls of old and if we see it is affecting people that headed those balls, does it correlate that it will affect later generations. Sadly we are at a point where there are more questions than answers and we need to get the answers, whether we like them or not a.s.a.p.
As someone said the other day it's not right that pushing forward on the issue is left to the likes of Dawn Astle, the daughter of the Jeff. Her campaigning has been amazing but at what cost to her emotionally?
Our national sport is awash with money yet they've spent a pittance on research in this area. The figures for ex players with neurodegenerative conditions are concerning when compared to the norm in the general population.
A lot of ex players are now speaking out on the issue along with many families.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11699/12143806/mike-bailey-former-wolves-captain-diagnosed-with-dementia
Maurice Setters apparently had dementia as well and the figures in football are very worrying when compared to the general public.
The PFA's lack of action and complacency in this area is an utter disgrace especially when the useless turd Gordon Taylor picks up a £2m salary. He is simply a crook.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/16/gordon-taylor-salary-four-times-benevolent-grants-former-players-pfa
It has been left to families to lobby for research and that is a disgrace in a sport awash with money.
Ex footballers and their families deserve protection and help - the authorities seem only concerned in helping a minority of wealthy individuals in the game become richer.
Rugby players are now highlighting the concussion issue which is also pertinent to football.
Absolute tragedy for these rugby players.
Another rugby player suffering from dementia. I really hope the authorities take action asap..
The concussion protocol is lacking in so many sports - it needs to be addressed.
Protective head gear for All Rugby players must be possible as they don't have to head the ball.
Football would need a different design but it must be possible in 2020 for innovation to take place and make the sport 20% safer.
Compared to the Footballs that Jeff Astle headed in his career, the modern ball shouldn't have quite the same impact but the clash of heads take their toll as we are seeing in so many cases.
The Chelsea keeper Peter Bonnetti who died earlier this year having suffered from dementia which his family believe may have been contributed to by the numerous concussions in his career.
Rugby and football could presumably work together on this?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/rugby-union-dark-news-dementia-presents-sport-with-reality-dared-not-face
Personally I find it less interesting to watch now as a spectacle, but more importantly what affect has this transformation made on the impacts players suffer when they clash?