As someone who was stumped with tuition fees from a government that first said they wouldn’t introduce them, then did, the promised not to increase them, then did. In both cases as party of a majority government I feel less annoyed towards Clegg. The Browne Review commissioned and agreed with by Labour in the run up to the 2010 election meant whoever the LibDems sided with Tories or Labour they would have had to give way on tuition fees. Yes it was damned stupid and duplicitous to offer a pledge they couldn’t deliver unless they were to be in government alone (unlikely then, more unlikely now!).
It’s a stick that Labour will consistently use to beat the LibDems, but as someone who is still paying back tuition fees at a lower earnings threshold and higher interest rate as under the previous system I would prefer to be paying back under the current system.
Until someone can convince the world of using taxation or similar to fund university, we are stuck with what is essentially a private model, where universities rise and fall on their student number and student satisfaction ratings.
For the sake of balance, I thought I’d post this from the Facebook feed of a Libdem I have contact with.
Please note- not my own thoughts or opinions. Am posting purely due to my perceived need for a bit of balance in this thread.
So the bloke who led the party that gave us more free childcare for under 2s than ever before to help give respite to single parents, that gave us the Pupil Premium so that primary school kids who need extra help can get it, who gave us free school meals for primary kids and more apprenticeship.places than ever before in history for 16-18 year olds that don't go on to further education, who gave us the Youth Contract that guaranteed a place to earn or learn for every unemployed 18-21 year old, who took over 3 million low earners and part time workers out of income tax completely and put over £800 back into over 26 million workers pockets, who gave our elderly the highest ever increase in the basic state pension TWICE, who started the clampdown on tax avoidance by the most wealthy individuals in the Country at HMRC and brought us the Banking Reform Act to stop casino banking...... all while coming THIRD in a General Election and having just 8.7% of seats in the House of Commons and being outnumbered by 5 Tory MPs to each LibDem MP in coalition.
I think this is the first Knighthood that's been deserved for ages.
Congratulations Nick Clegg! And while you are at it you also managed to annoy Daily Mail and Sun readers too.
My hero!
Personally... I like the idea of politicians being multilingual.
Can see how Clegg is both a sell out and someone who made progress towards what he wanted to achieve through compromise.
You should know not to let facts get in the way of a chance to have a pop at The Tories and anyone who dares to support some of their policies on here.
Not sure what else Clegg could do during his tenure as Deputy PM. He got some things done and failed on others.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
OK. The reality is you generally choose your A Level options in year 11, usually with a plan for future study, and if it is realistic. Then you apply for a series of Universities and get your aimed for grades (three A's as it happened) and then you get accepted. Why after all that would it take Freshers week to decide the fees are crippling, especially as the rules about repayment, and interest charges change from the initial proposal? The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation), and in the run up to it all the fees were 3k which was possible to plan for, then tripled unexpectedly. You paint me and my family as mugs because we were not prepared for the rules to drastically change during the process, and by the time Freshers week arrived for us, and many others it felt too late to change course, not the right time anyway because the first tranche of debt had already kicked in, and I didn't want to deny the education for my son that I had been able to have myself (having been in the care of Southwark social services). You also diss me for blaming Clegg and his vile contemporaries, so explain why he and his ilk felt the need to say sorry.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
This is what I don’t understand, I have three kids all that i want to go uni , and I have no issues with supporting them , I am not rich I work hard and I understand if they want to and are able to maximize the opportunity I will have to work harder
As for getting free rent and living whilst there that’s fucking la la land
Seth you don’t live rent and lifestyle free why should you expect your kids to do so
Clegg presided over Lib Dem’s decimation, but also led them into government for the first time in the history.
Failed to deliver on his tuition fees pledge but delivered a fairer system in terms of what is basically a low level graduate tax.
In terms of pupil premium Clegg and Lib Dem’s has done more for Social Mobility than the majority of those who preceded him and judging but the recent actions of Milburn and the commission all those who followed him.
Clegg rejected a peerage as he didn’t want a state funded job for life, compare that with John Prescott a deputy PM who did bugger all.
If you consider a 9% tax on earnings above £21000 lowlevel, I can see why you and Clegg were so relaxed about a 5% reduction for those earning more than £150k.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Pretty much. If you got a full grant, as I did, it was about 1700 a year in the early 80s, plenty enough for food, rent and beer for term time. Not quite enough left to buy any books though.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
This is what I don’t understand, I have three kids all that i want to go uni , and I have no issues with supporting them , I am not rich I work hard and I understand if they want to and are able to maximize the opportunity I will have to work harder
As for getting free rent and living whilst there that’s fucking la la land
Seth you don’t live rent and lifestyle free why should you expect your kids to do so
It is about the rules shifting and changing. And I do support my family as I always have done from my own modest resources.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
This is what I don’t understand, I have three kids all that i want to go uni , and I have no issues with supporting them , I am not rich I work hard and I understand if they want to and are able to maximize the opportunity I will have to work harder
As for getting free rent and living whilst there that’s fucking la la land
Seth you don’t live rent and lifestyle free why should you expect your kids to do so
It is about the rules shifting and changing. And I do support my family as I always have done from my own modest resources.
So do you expect me to support your son through Uni with my modest resources?
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
Do you still think that's the right way to go in 21st Century UK, where University entrances places have increased by 80% in the last 30 years?
Or should our finite resources be somehow targeted where they are most needed?
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
It wasn't sufficient, the living grant barely covers rent. If you don't believe me ask a landlord.
This is what I don’t understand, I have three kids all that i want to go uni , and I have no issues with supporting them , I am not rich I work hard and I understand if they want to and are able to maximize the opportunity I will have to work harder
As for getting free rent and living whilst there that’s fucking la la land
Seth you don’t live rent and lifestyle free why should you expect your kids to do so
It is about the rules shifting and changing. And I do support my family as I always have done from my own modest resources.
So do you expect me to support your son through Uni with my modest resources?
I have my onw kids and step kids to support.
Indeed, and my resources also support the schooling, for example, for your own kids and step kids.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
Why bother when you can spend someone else's money.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
It wasn't sufficient, the living grant barely covers rent. If you don't believe me ask a landlord.
Only if your parents earn above a certain amount (I don't remember exactly what it was) I had friends who's grant - not loan - more than covered their rent, those that didn't receive the full amount received help from their families for the most part.
The state simply can't afford to sponsor everyone throgh higher education, sometimes, if you want something for yourself, or others, badly enough, you gotta cough up the cash.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
Do you still think that's the right way to go in 21st Century UK, where University entrances places have increased by 80% in the last 30 years?
Or should our finite resources be somehow targeted where they are most needed?
On this I have a sense of overlap with you. Yes resources are finite, and the debate is often about where to deploy them. However my problem is shifting the ground dramatically and unexpectedly after explicit promises that it wouldn't happen and wrong footing people. Then a shrug of insouciance and an expectation of a knighthood follows whilst real people live with their deception. The debate about everybody going willy nilly to university is different, as is the debate about whether it is value for money.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
NB SKIP TO NEXT BOLD BIT FOR THE STUFF RELEVANT TO NICK CLEGG
Hey I'm the son! You wanna throw shade at me without the courage to call me out? Don't forget maintenance loans at (just over) £3k a year, without which I literally would not have been able to feed myself at uni. And that's with my parents contributing to my rent - because that was around £400 a month. Maintenance loan didn't even cover my rent.
Factor in interest, and my loan is now sitting at just over £40k. I need to be earning - as Seth said - over £40k to start paying off the lump sum - the rest is just a payment on interest.
What's happened here is that I'm being lumped with an extra tax that I had no say in.
As for too late? Well yes. I could've decided uni wasn't for me during freshers. But by that time, I'm already £4k or so in debt. And the increase in student fees happened while I had no say in this - while everyone my age had no say in what happened to us at such a crucial juncture. (We're barely even getting started here)
General election that formed the coalition was May 2010, yes? So I was just about to sit my GCSEs. The student fee increase came after I had made the following decisions:
- A Levels (Music, Politics, History, Maths) - Degree preference (Music - with the idea that the other subjects would sufficiently complement my musical training through building essay writing and other transferable skills) - University preferences (now, I didn't end up applying until after the fee increase was announced, but bear with me. I applied to Oxford, Bristol [where I went], Sheffield, York, and Edinburgh)
And - crucially - it came after my parents had made the decision to continue financing my education - both via school fees (I am incredibly lucky to have been to a private school, and luckier still to have had a scholarship, without which that education wouldn't have been afforded to me) and feeding/clothing me - for two years. They could've said "right, leave at 16 and go find a job/something vocational", but they did not.
There are also a variety of cultural pressures and precedents that meant me not going to university/higher education wasn't really an option. I am half-Chinese, and I would rather not go into detail here.
As for uni not being for me - yeah, so I/my parents actually had to invest in textbooks; musical equipment; moving costs (to Bristol); extraneous study material specific to a music course (manuscript paper, Sibelius software, even a weighted electric piano which I got for my 18th birthday when I knew I'd be studying music somewhere, so on); and more.
Also what the fuck you on about re tax free cost of living and that?! No no, my student loan interest is currently sat at 6.1% interest per annum. Which is a joke. That's on both student and maintenance.
Let's take my £40k (remember, I graduated two years ago, so interest already has happened etc) and apply 6% to that, which is £2,400. I start repaying 9% of my salary above 21k on student loans.
2,400 = 0.09x (hey, I didn't do a maths degree but I can form equations, yay) 240,000 = 9x therefore x = 26,666.67
21000 + 26666.67 = 47,666.67
So I actually have to earn around that much to just pay off interest! However it is worth noting that the lump debt doesn't change how much I pay (always 9% above 21k). Still.
----------------------
To deal with a few likely questions:
- I went to Bristol which is ages away, yes, but because it had that year's top-ranked music course (that wasn't a conservatory course - it was even better than Oxbridge's courses). I didn't go to (or even apply for) a London uni because I wanted to live with peers etc.
- "Look at all the wealth!" Yes, because my parents worked fucking hard to get to the point where I went to private school, and made a lot of sacrifices so I could have what I wanted. And I *still* had to do gigs before and during uni to help pay my way.
- "You didn't have to go to uni even after A levels!" well, see above imo. It's maybe conveniently teleological of me, but everything had been geared toward me going to uni. And I really wanted to study Music!
-----------------------
STUFF RELEVANT TO NICK CLEGG
Sorry for the essay. But as per above, Clegg made a pledge not to raise tuition fees. That was then discarded when he got into bed with the Tories, thereby fucking up higher education for mine and future generations.
It also made university seem even more "elite", helping entrench a form of class divide.
He also broke his referendum pledge on voter reform. That AV+ bollocks?! What was that about. It wasn't even quarter-baked, let alone half-baked.
Essentially, his party made two promises around which they built their campaign. Neither was remotely fulfilled (and yes, they were in coalition, but at least pick ONE).
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
It went on rent for properties I didn't live in during those holidays.
I also wasn't able to work a full-time holiday job, because I had degree work and research to be getting on with. It's unfortunate though that piano practice (which had to take place during sociable hours) meant I couldn't take more hours at some of my holiday jobs.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
Why bother when you can spend someone else's money.
Yeah dw, I'm just gonna do the same thing as previous generations and shift the debt burden onto my children.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
It wasn't sufficient, the living grant barely covers rent. If you don't believe me ask a landlord.
I know exactly how much it costs. I have a 19 year old stepson at Uni - he shares those costs with six other students in the rented accommodation he's in.
And he's earning over £2k over Christmas to help subsidise his living expenses whilst he decides he wants to further his education. He chose to study away from home - as I expect your son did.
Your son has £27k of student debt. The rest is just debt, so stop pretending otherwise.
This is what I don’t understand, I have three kids all that i want to go uni , and I have no issues with supporting them , I am not rich I work hard and I understand if they want to and are able to maximize the opportunity I will have to work harder
As for getting free rent and living whilst there that’s fucking la la land
Seth you don’t live rent and lifestyle free why should you expect your kids to do so
It is about the rules shifting and changing. And I do support my family as I always have done from my own modest resources.
So do you expect me to support your son through Uni with my modest resources?
I have my onw kids and step kids to support.
Indeed, and my resources also support the schooling, for example, for your own kids and step kids.
As my resources still continue to do and will always continue to do.
Happy to pay towards education, health, foreign aid, defence, social security, infrastructure, the arts, diplomatic service and the million other things my taxes and NI go on - indeed, I'd be comfortable in paying more.
However, I really don't want to subsidise your sons further education and living expenses. That's down to him and his family. It's called responsibilities.
education costs, living away from home costs imo its not for anyone else other than the parents of the children or the children themselves to cover it either whilst at uni or in the years after that’s just life ,
If I want something I work hard and I get it , If I can’t afford it I don’t get it
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
Do you still think that's the right way to go in 21st Century UK, where University entrances places have increased by 80% in the last 30 years?
Or should our finite resources be somehow targeted where they are most needed?
On this I have a sense of overlap with you. Yes resources are finite, and the debate is often about where to deploy them. However my problem is shifting the ground dramatically and unexpectedly after explicit promises that it wouldn't happen and wrong footing people. Then a shrug of insouciance and an expectation of a knighthood follows whilst real people live with their deception. The debate about everybody going willy nilly to university is different, as is the debate about whether it is value for money.
And I'm sure Clegg would have fulfilled those promises, if he had been Prime Minister.
But he wasn't and had to make the most out of the situation he had been dealt.
And I for one believe he made the right decisions for the benefit of the Country as a whole, despite some of those being against his better judgement.
And I for one believe he made the right decisions for the benefit of the Country as a whole, despite some of those being against his better judgement.
Remember that Clegg's government, no doubt thinking about the country as a whole reduced the top rate of tax from 50% to 45% for those struggling to get by on £150k a year - like Mrs Clegg fro example.
My son has nearly 50 grand of uni debt and has worked since graduating but it continues to increase due to interest. He would need to earn 41k per year for it to start to decrease. He was in the first group of 9k fees and it was too late at the time to change plans. Clegg and his ilk are utter cnuts with no redeeming features.
I assume he didn't get a Maths degree then? 3 x £9k is £27k of Uni debt. The other 'debt' is just the cost of living in 21st Century UK (tax free as well).
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation)
You got free rent and food?
Basically yes, subsidised by holiday work. I had no family support having been in care and in order to get a degree was totally reliant on grants.
So what did your son spend his holiday work money on then? Surely it would have been wise to use it on his day to day Uni living expenses rather than racking up additional debt outside his tuition fees?
It went on rent for properties I didn't live in during those holidays.
I also wasn't able to work a full-time holiday job, because I had degree work and research to be getting on with. It's unfortunate though that piano practice (which had to take place during sociable hours) meant I couldn't take more hours at some of my holiday jobs.
Well you are arguing your case better than Seth.
My points are that it was your decision to chose that Uni and that degree - no one forced you into it. You were aware there were costs of doing this but 'only' £27k of your debt is down to Uni tuition fees - which were announced in 2011, before you even applied to University.
The rest of that debt were your living costs - which I assume you are still paying now?
University for the average Jo is one of sacrifices and hardship - it has always been the case. But I bet you don't regret it for one minute.
We all make informed decisions in life - but for Seth to blame Nick Clegg for your £50k (sic) of student debt is just bollocks.
Comments
It’s a stick that Labour will consistently use to beat the LibDems, but as someone who is still paying back tuition fees at a lower earnings threshold and higher interest rate as under the previous system I would prefer to be paying back under the current system.
Until someone can convince the world of using taxation or similar to fund university, we are stuck with what is essentially a private model, where universities rise and fall on their student number and student satisfaction ratings.
Not sure what else Clegg could do during his tenure as Deputy PM. He got some things done and failed on others.
What's green and takes an hour to drink?
A grant cheque
'Too late' to change plans? What on earth are you on about. Could he not have decided Uni wasn't for him during freshers week?
Blame Clegg for certain things, but not the decisions made by yourself and your family.
The reality is you generally choose your A Level options in year 11, usually with a plan for future study, and if it is realistic. Then you apply for a series of Universities and get your aimed for grades (three A's as it happened) and then you get accepted.
Why after all that would it take Freshers week to decide the fees are crippling, especially as the rules about repayment, and interest charges change from the initial proposal?
The debt also includes the money borrowed for rent and living (something that didn't happen to my generation), and in the run up to it all the fees were 3k which was possible to plan for, then tripled unexpectedly.
You paint me and my family as mugs because we were not prepared for the rules to drastically change during the process, and by the time Freshers week arrived for us, and many others it felt too late to change course, not the right time anyway because the first tranche of debt had already kicked in, and I didn't want to deny the education for my son that I had been able to have myself (having been in the care of Southwark social services).
You also diss me for blaming Clegg and his vile contemporaries, so explain why he and his ilk felt the need to say sorry.
As for getting free rent and living whilst there that’s fucking la la land
Seth you don’t live rent and lifestyle free why should you expect your kids to do so
I have my onw kids and step kids to support.
Or should our finite resources be somehow targeted where they are most needed?
The state simply can't afford to sponsor everyone throgh higher education, sometimes, if you want something for yourself, or others, badly enough, you gotta cough up the cash.
However my problem is shifting the ground dramatically and unexpectedly after explicit promises that it wouldn't happen and wrong footing people. Then a shrug of insouciance and an expectation of a knighthood follows whilst real people live with their deception.
The debate about everybody going willy nilly to university is different, as is the debate about whether it is value for money.
Hey I'm the son! You wanna throw shade at me without the courage to call me out? Don't forget maintenance loans at (just over) £3k a year, without which I literally would not have been able to feed myself at uni. And that's with my parents contributing to my rent - because that was around £400 a month. Maintenance loan didn't even cover my rent.
Factor in interest, and my loan is now sitting at just over £40k. I need to be earning - as Seth said - over £40k to start paying off the lump sum - the rest is just a payment on interest.
What's happened here is that I'm being lumped with an extra tax that I had no say in.
As for too late? Well yes. I could've decided uni wasn't for me during freshers. But by that time, I'm already £4k or so in debt. And the increase in student fees happened while I had no say in this - while everyone my age had no say in what happened to us at such a crucial juncture. (We're barely even getting started here)
General election that formed the coalition was May 2010, yes? So I was just about to sit my GCSEs. The student fee increase came after I had made the following decisions:
- A Levels (Music, Politics, History, Maths)
- Degree preference (Music - with the idea that the other subjects would sufficiently complement my musical training through building essay writing and other transferable skills)
- University preferences (now, I didn't end up applying until after the fee increase was announced, but bear with me. I applied to Oxford, Bristol [where I went], Sheffield, York, and Edinburgh)
And - crucially - it came after my parents had made the decision to continue financing my education - both via school fees (I am incredibly lucky to have been to a private school, and luckier still to have had a scholarship, without which that education wouldn't have been afforded to me) and feeding/clothing me - for two years. They could've said "right, leave at 16 and go find a job/something vocational", but they did not.
There are also a variety of cultural pressures and precedents that meant me not going to university/higher education wasn't really an option. I am half-Chinese, and I would rather not go into detail here.
As for uni not being for me - yeah, so I/my parents actually had to invest in textbooks; musical equipment; moving costs (to Bristol); extraneous study material specific to a music course (manuscript paper, Sibelius software, even a weighted electric piano which I got for my 18th birthday when I knew I'd be studying music somewhere, so on); and more.
Also what the fuck you on about re tax free cost of living and that?! No no, my student loan interest is currently sat at 6.1% interest per annum. Which is a joke. That's on both student and maintenance.
Let's take my £40k (remember, I graduated two years ago, so interest already has happened etc) and apply 6% to that, which is £2,400. I start repaying 9% of my salary above 21k on student loans.
2,400 = 0.09x (hey, I didn't do a maths degree but I can form equations, yay)
240,000 = 9x
therefore
x = 26,666.67
21000 + 26666.67 = 47,666.67
So I actually have to earn around that much to just pay off interest! However it is worth noting that the lump debt doesn't change how much I pay (always 9% above 21k). Still.
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To deal with a few likely questions:
- I went to Bristol which is ages away, yes, but because it had that year's top-ranked music course (that wasn't a conservatory course - it was even better than Oxbridge's courses). I didn't go to (or even apply for) a London uni because I wanted to live with peers etc.
- "Look at all the wealth!" Yes, because my parents worked fucking hard to get to the point where I went to private school, and made a lot of sacrifices so I could have what I wanted. And I *still* had to do gigs before and during uni to help pay my way.
- "You didn't have to go to uni even after A levels!" well, see above imo. It's maybe conveniently teleological of me, but everything had been geared toward me going to uni. And I really wanted to study Music!
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STUFF RELEVANT TO NICK CLEGG
Sorry for the essay. But as per above, Clegg made a pledge not to raise tuition fees. That was then discarded when he got into bed with the Tories, thereby fucking up higher education for mine and future generations.
It also made university seem even more "elite", helping entrench a form of class divide.
He also broke his referendum pledge on voter reform. That AV+ bollocks?! What was that about. It wasn't even quarter-baked, let alone half-baked.
Essentially, his party made two promises around which they built their campaign. Neither was remotely fulfilled (and yes, they were in coalition, but at least pick ONE).
Knighthood? Don't make me sick.
I also wasn't able to work a full-time holiday job, because I had degree work and research to be getting on with. It's unfortunate though that piano practice (which had to take place during sociable hours) meant I couldn't take more hours at some of my holiday jobs.
And he's earning over £2k over Christmas to help subsidise his living expenses whilst he decides he wants to further his education. He chose to study away from home - as I expect your son did.
Your son has £27k of student debt. The rest is just debt, so stop pretending otherwise.
Happy to pay towards education, health, foreign aid, defence, social security, infrastructure, the arts, diplomatic service and the million other things my taxes and NI go on - indeed, I'd be comfortable in paying more.
However, I really don't want to subsidise your sons further education and living expenses. That's down to him and his family. It's called responsibilities.
If I want something I work hard and I get it , If I can’t afford it I don’t get it
The same should stand for uni
But he wasn't and had to make the most out of the situation he had been dealt.
And I for one believe he made the right decisions for the benefit of the Country as a whole, despite some of those being against his better judgement.
And I for one believe he made the right decisions for the benefit of the Country as a whole, despite some of those being against his better judgement.
Remember that Clegg's government, no doubt thinking about the country as a whole reduced the top rate of tax from 50% to 45% for those struggling to get by on £150k a year - like Mrs Clegg fro example.
My points are that it was your decision to chose that Uni and that degree - no one forced you into it. You were aware there were costs of doing this but 'only' £27k of your debt is down to Uni tuition fees - which were announced in 2011, before you even applied to University.
The rest of that debt were your living costs - which I assume you are still paying now?
University for the average Jo is one of sacrifices and hardship - it has always been the case. But I bet you don't regret it for one minute.
We all make informed decisions in life - but for Seth to blame Nick Clegg for your £50k (sic) of student debt is just bollocks.