History is a massive subject and schools can't cover everything. Dunkirk was a major and important event but only one of hundreds that could be taught.
I read two or three history books about WW2 a year and I still come across major events that I knew nothing about.
My top 3 WW2 events:
Dunkirk Battle of Britain Normandy Landings
in no particular order.
Come on we always Top 5's on here! Let's have your Top Five WWII events, your Top 5 Terrorist Attacks and your Top 5 German products you boycott. Surely we should pull out of every World Cup, Euro's and stop our British clubs participating in European competitions if the bloody Germans are there!
Seriously! Sometimes I really wonder about people these days.
Top 5 terrorist attacks would be tasteless. I'm talking about topics that should be featured if teaching kids about WW11.
Not sure how those comments about boycotting Germany relate to my WWII top three? I don't boycott German products, and never have.
Top 5 terrorist attacks tasteless? But top WWII events isn't? How can you have your favourite war events?
There is no glory in war
As for boycotting German products, no it wasn't you, but my comments were a reaction to the direction the whole thread was taking.
Oh, and I got into deep trouble with @Valley11 for doing the ‘quote’ thing and getting it wrong :-(
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
History is a massive subject and schools can't cover everything. Dunkirk was a major and important event but only one of hundreds that could be taught.
I read two or three history books about WW2 a year and I still come across major events that I knew nothing about.
My top 3 WW2 events:
Dunkirk Battle of Britain Normandy Landings
in no particular order.
Good choice for WW2 events that take place within 100 miles of the English channel. Arguably lacking in the wider perspective.
History is a massive subject and schools can't cover everything. Dunkirk was a major and important event but only one of hundreds that could be taught.
I read two or three history books about WW2 a year and I still come across major events that I knew nothing about.
My top 3 WW2 events:
Dunkirk Battle of Britain Normandy Landings
in no particular order.
Good choice for WW2 events that take place within 100 miles of the English channel. Arguably lacking in the wider perspective.
True. Top 3 from the perspective of a schoolboy in Bromley then.
Of course there were other 'events' which one could argue had an equally vital impact on the outcome of the war, Stalingrad for example.
But had our entire army been wiped out at Dunkirk .... what then?
Shame there's little mention of the Africa campaign. Allowed a new front to open up in Italy and helped stop vital territories and governments falling under fascist rule.
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
Shame there's little mention of the Africa campaign. Allowed a new front to open up in Italy and helped stop vital territories and governments falling under fascist rule.
My dad served in the Middle East in WW2. Met my mum post war when based at Woolwich - at which time he was a 'covered-ender'.
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
not forgetting the England football team...
That's a grim picture.
send shivers down my spine
Including our very own Captain.
Many think this is the Nazi salute, it isn't, its the team stating how tall they want the new defenders to be.......the pre cursor to the CL height test...er.... maybe.......!
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
not forgetting the England football team...
That's a grim picture.
send shivers down my spine
Including our very own Captain.
The England players were told they wouldn't be picked again if they didn't give the salute.
Aston Villa were touring Germany at the same time and refused as a team to give the salute.
3,498,059 of The Germany army's 4,188,037 casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. For many Germans the Eastern Front was WW2.
The excellent German mini series Generation War that was shown on TV a few years back, and hardly anyone watched, was all about the war in the East.
Their perspective is different just as it would be for the 2.5m men in the Indian Army, the largest volunteer army in history.
An opinion I've often heard is that the Soviets would most likely have turned back the Nazis even without the Western allies invading the mainland and the Western front largely hastened Germany's defeat by a year or two.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
3,498,059 of The Germany army's 4,188,037 casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. For many Germans the Eastern Front was WW2.
The excellent German mini series Generation War that was shown on TV a few years back, and hardly anyone watched, was all about the war in the East.
Their perspective is different just as it would be for the 2.5m men in the Indian Army, the largest volunteer army in history.
An opinion I've often heard is that the Soviets would most likely have turned back the Nazis even without the Western allies invading the mainland and the Western front largely hastened Germany's defeat by a year or two.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
I think the first is probably true. Operation Bagration was launched by the Soviets against German army group centre just two weeks after D-day. It absolutely dwarfed the Normandy landings in scale, with 10 times as many Soviets troops fighting in Bagration as western troops in Normandy and many more Germans involved as well. In all honesty Hitler's insane orders never to retreat probably killed more German soldiers than the allies did.
I can't see how the allies would have won in Europe without the Soviets. An atomic bomb on Berlin I guess.
3,498,059 of The Germany army's 4,188,037 casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. For many Germans the Eastern Front was WW2.
The excellent German mini series Generation War that was shown on TV a few years back, and hardly anyone watched, was all about the war in the East.
Their perspective is different just as it would be for the 2.5m men in the Indian Army, the largest volunteer army in history.
An opinion I've often heard is that the Soviets would most likely have turned back the Nazis even without the Western allies invading the mainland and the Western front largely hastened Germany's defeat by a year or two.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
The general consensus from historians is that regardless of the USA joining the war in late 41, without the Russians smashing their way in from the East then the Germans would have held out in the War. The Russian campaign was the biggest mistake Hitler made in the war, he made the same errors as Napoleon, in that he underestimated the Russian winter, he didn't start the invasion until 22 June 41, although he made great advances and very nearly took Moscow, they could see the spires, if he had sent them in in late March then he would have had a chance. But weather and logistics helped the Russians on their home soil, that and the fact they fought like Tigers. It is said that before Stalingrad Hitler never lost a ground battle, after Stalingrad he never won one. I find the Eastern front a fascinating part of WW2, there are some blinding films made by our Eastern European friends about WW2. Also another vote for Generation War, if WW2 is your interest then its a must see.
3,498,059 of The Germany army's 4,188,037 casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. For many Germans the Eastern Front was WW2.
The excellent German mini series Generation War that was shown on TV a few years back, and hardly anyone watched, was all about the war in the East.
Their perspective is different just as it would be for the 2.5m men in the Indian Army, the largest volunteer army in history.
An opinion I've often heard is that the Soviets would most likely have turned back the Nazis even without the Western allies invading the mainland and the Western front largely hastened Germany's defeat by a year or two.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
The general consensus from historians is that regardless of the USA joining the war in late 41, without the Russians smashing their way in from the East then the Germans would have held out in the War. The Russian campaign was the biggest mistake Hitler made in the war, he made the same errors as Napoleon, in that he underestimated the Russian winter, he didn't start the invasion until 22 June 41, although he made great advances and very nearly took Moscow, they could see the spires, if he had sent them in in late March then he would have had a chance. But weather and logistics helped the Russians on their home soil, that and the fact they fought like Tigers. It is said that before Stalingrad Hitler never lost a ground battle, after Stalingrad he never won one. I find the Eastern front a fascinating part of WW2, there are some blinding films made by our Eastern European friends about WW2. Also another vote for Generation War, if WW2 is your interest then its a must see.
Good points although the US and to a lesser extent the British were sending arms to the Soviets while the RAF and USAAF were bombing Germany so diverting troops, aircraft and anti-aircraft guns away from the Eastern Front.
If Hitler hadn't diverted to Stalingrad and stuck to the plan to seize the oilfields who knows.
But Hitler would never listen and unlike Churchill, who had Brooke and later Stalin with Zhukov, he never had an effective chief of staff. That was due to Hitler thinking he knew best and never trusting his staff.
3,498,059 of The Germany army's 4,188,037 casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. For many Germans the Eastern Front was WW2.
The excellent German mini series Generation War that was shown on TV a few years back, and hardly anyone watched, was all about the war in the East.
Their perspective is different just as it would be for the 2.5m men in the Indian Army, the largest volunteer army in history.
An opinion I've often heard is that the Soviets would most likely have turned back the Nazis even without the Western allies invading the mainland and the Western front largely hastened Germany's defeat by a year or two.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
The general consensus from historians is that regardless of the USA joining the war in late 41, without the Russians smashing their way in from the East then the Germans would have held out in the War. The Russian campaign was the biggest mistake Hitler made in the war, he made the same errors as Napoleon, in that he underestimated the Russian winter, he didn't start the invasion until 22 June 41, although he made great advances and very nearly took Moscow, they could see the spires, if he had sent them in in late March then he would have had a chance. But weather and logistics helped the Russians on their home soil, that and the fact they fought like Tigers. It is said that before Stalingrad Hitler never lost a ground battle, after Stalingrad he never won one. I find the Eastern front a fascinating part of WW2, there are some blinding films made by our Eastern European friends about WW2. Also another vote for Generation War, if WW2 is your interest then its a must see.
Good points although the US and to a lesser extent the British were sending arms to the Soviets while the RAF and USAAF were bombing Germany so diverting troops, aircraft and anti-aircraft guns away from the Eastern Front.
If Hitler hadn't diverted to Stalingrad and stuck to the plan to seize the oilfields who knows.
But Hitler would never listen and unlike Churchill, who had Brooke and later Stalin with Zhukov, he never had an effective chief of staff. That was due to Hitler thinking he knew best and never trusting his staff.
Yep under lend lease, they were stored in various salt mines, one of the arms dealers that I know, still buys unissued spanking new US Thompson Sub machine guns from the Russians by the crateful, I bought one a couple of years ago and had it deactivated. Its a minter. They are still finding military equipment from WW2 to this day.
Agree with your final 2 points H, Hitlers ego would not let him delegate to his excellent Generals, a case of having a dog and barking yourself.
Best book I've read on the wider strategic reasons the allies won although he makes the point at the start that victory was not inevitable or guaranteed.
Best book I've read on the wider strategic reasons the allies won although he makes the point at the start that victory was not inevitable or guaranteed.
Dunkirk was an example that sometimes you have to retreat to win a war - Hitler was not a good retreater.
Yeah I found it quite funny when I read countless comments from people who'd seen Dunkirk around the world, who themselves couldn't understand why we were celebrating a defeat / retreat
Dunkirk was an example that sometimes you have to retreat to win a war - Hitler was not a good retreater.
Yeah I found it quite funny when I read countless comments from people who'd seen Dunkirk around the world, who themselves couldn't understand why we were celebrating a defeat / retreat
If you watch it in reverse it becomes the heroic tale of how our boys were delivered to the French shores by brave leisure sailors in order to save the French from the Bosch.
An opinion I've often heard is that the Soviets would most likely have turned back the Nazis even without the Western allies invading the mainland and the Western front largely hastened Germany's defeat by a year or two.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
I always got a chuckle about this. Very true that in my country, most think we won the whole war.
I enjoyed Man In The High Castle (Netflix - from the Philip K Dick book of the same name). It muses on the world would be if the Germans and Japanese won WW2. That and parallel universes of course.
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
I know a lot of people who suddenly won't buy anything by Ikea now that they learned its founder (now dead) was a fascist 55 years ago, or something. If they had their way, the company would go out of business, stop providing goods that million of people willingly pay money for, and put everyone out of work. It's not like this was new news, its over 20 years old.
I then reminded them of the following companies they should also boycott with that logic...
Bayer... its parent company made the Zyclon B that was used to gas the Jews
Hugo Boss... made those SS uniforms.
IBM... made punch card machines so the Nazis could efficiently route people to concentration camps
Adidas.... founder was a prominent Nazi and Hitler supporter
BMW... used slave labor during WW2
Kodak... jewish slave labor
Random House.... published Nazi propaganda
Ford.... Henry Ford was an anti-semite and was given an award by The Nazis for his support
Chase Bank... froze accounts of Jews and lended money to the Nazis
I enjoyed Man In The High Castle (Netflix - from the Philip K Dick book of the same name). It muses on the world would be if the Germans and Japanese won WW2. That and parallel universes of course.
Is it not actually AmazonPrime, rather than Netflix?
I really enjoyed S1, right up until the last episode, which, imo, ruined the entire thing, not bothered with S2 yet.
Best book I've read on the wider strategic reasons the allies won although he makes the point at the start that victory was not inevitable or guaranteed.
Thanks for the heads-up, Ben - just downloaded it to my Kindle.
Best book I've read on the wider strategic reasons the allies won although he makes the point at the start that victory was not inevitable or guaranteed.
Thanks for the heads-up, Ben - just downloaded it to my Kindle.
Comments
:-(
Great thread btw, despite my earlier complaint!
Top 3 from the perspective of a schoolboy in Bromley then.
Of course there were other 'events' which one could argue had an equally vital impact on the outcome of the war, Stalingrad for example.
But had our entire army been wiped out at Dunkirk .... what then?
maybe.......!
Aston Villa were touring Germany at the same time and refused as a team to give the salute.
England won 6 - 3 I believe.
The excellent German mini series Generation War that was shown on TV a few years back, and hardly anyone watched, was all about the war in the East.
Their perspective is different just as it would be for the 2.5m men in the Indian Army, the largest volunteer army in history.
On the other hand, how much more difficult would European victory have been if the Soviets and Nazis had not gone to war with each other?
I can't see how the allies would have won in Europe without the Soviets. An atomic bomb on Berlin I guess.
It is said that before Stalingrad Hitler never lost a ground battle, after Stalingrad he never won one.
I find the Eastern front a fascinating part of WW2, there are some blinding films made by our Eastern European friends about WW2.
Also another vote for Generation War, if WW2 is your interest then its a must see.
If Hitler hadn't diverted to Stalingrad and stuck to the plan to seize the oilfields who knows.
But Hitler would never listen and unlike Churchill, who had Brooke and later Stalin with Zhukov, he never had an effective chief of staff. That was due to Hitler thinking he knew best and never trusting his staff.
Agree with your final 2 points H, Hitlers ego would not let him delegate to his excellent Generals, a case of having a dog and barking yourself.
Best book I've read on the wider strategic reasons the allies won although he makes the point at the start that victory was not inevitable or guaranteed.
And the US dinosaur should be dashing in from the left, two years late.
Again.
It muses on the world would be if the Germans and Japanese won WW2. That and parallel universes of course.
I really enjoyed S1, right up until the last episode, which, imo, ruined the entire thing, not bothered with S2 yet.