There are some crimes so abhorrent and reprehensible I'd have no moral dilemma about executing the perpetrator for. Proven beyond all doubt people like Ian Huntley, Myra Hindley I would end. Of course there is the argument that it's an escape for them but I think Ian Huntley is getting away with what he did by doing a prison sentence.
Where do you stop though?
I grudgingly believe people deserve the opportunity to be rehabilitated and atone for what they have done. America has a huge problem with it's prison system and has for years because for those on death row or doing 500 year sentences there is nothing to be gained so become inhuman and unmanageable by prison staff.
I'm sure @AddickUpNorth can keep me honest here and from accounts of people I know who have spent time at her majesties pleasure, resource is so tight that money and staff are not available to rehabilitate those who want to be rehabilitated. This won't change until successive governments stop hiving stuff like this out to organisations who are trying to make margins. I know a few people who work in prisons and without saying which ones beyond the fact they are in Kent and South East London they all say the job is broken and they are permanently being totally reactive as opposed to proactive which is dangerous in any line of work
I’ve been following this thread but wasn’t sure if I was going to comment but as @Carter mentioned me here’s my contribution. Carter, you are absolutely correct about rehabilitation and HMPS’ ability to do it effectively. Due to cuts over the past eight years the service is on its knees, it’s statement of purpose to help those in custody to change and live law abiding lives is meaningless. The system is now one of purely keeping those convicted by the courts away from society with little chance of change whilst inside. This doesn’t just come through psychologist approved offending behaviour courses which are offered but through interactions with officers and this has been hampered by a lack of staff. I work in the High Security estate so luckily we still have a decent (though by no means adequate) officer to prisoner ratio. The wing I work on holds 108 inmates and we operate with an SO and twelve. Our prisoners are lucky to have a decent amount of time out of cell, those who work are out practically all day. Even those who are unemployed still get around four hours association a day. Due to the fact prisoners at my jail are mostly all doing long sentences (66 lifers on my wing as of last Friday) and can stay with us for years we can establish positive working relationships and can work on pro-social modelling, we can at least try to convince the lads that there is a different life available to them. However go a local jail and it’s a different story entirely. They’re nothing more than disorganised hellholes where it really is survival of the fittest, rife with drugs, fear, bullying and despair. I’ll be honest, if I had to work at HMP Leeds or Hull for example then I’d quit the service. There is no way I’d want to risk my safety on a wing of 140 with just me and two or three others trying to keep control. It’s one thing working with inmates who you can really get to know over several years and another trying to contain men who you can never hope to get to understand nor build positive relationships with in a few months before they’re released.
Change is possible in prison but experience tells me that change comes from within the prisoner themselves, regardless of what OB courses are offered. Whether these OB programmes are fit for purpose is debatable, most just do them to tick off a Sentence Plan target. They have to be seen to be playing the game if they want release at some point in the future. Change usually comes with age and how sick of prison a person becomes.
So onto the subject of the death penalty. I have to admit to having a change of mind over the years. When I joined the job I was vehemently opposed to it, found it to be a barbaric and pointless exercise of retribution rather than any form of deterrent. However over the course of the past fourteen years, considering some of the individuals I’ve encountered there is a part of me that would not flinch if I was to hear a certain individual was to be executed. I could never do it myself nor would I want to work on Death Row but I wouldn’t lose sleep if someone else did. Working in the PS has definitely given me an insight into just who walks amongst us, what they’re capable of and this is the crux, just how irreparably evil they are.
Going off topic slightly, I watched this the other night @AddickUpNorth , it highlights the shortage of staff and the calibre of people being recruited / fast tracked into the system. Mind boggling some of it -
There are some crimes so abhorrent and reprehensible I'd have no moral dilemma about executing the perpetrator for. Proven beyond all doubt people like Ian Huntley, Myra Hindley I would end. Of course there is the argument that it's an escape for them but I think Ian Huntley is getting away with what he did by doing a prison sentence.
Where do you stop though?
I grudgingly believe people deserve the opportunity to be rehabilitated and atone for what they have done. America has a huge problem with it's prison system and has for years because for those on death row or doing 500 year sentences there is nothing to be gained so become inhuman and unmanageable by prison staff.
I'm sure @AddickUpNorth can keep me honest here and from accounts of people I know who have spent time at her majesties pleasure, resource is so tight that money and staff are not available to rehabilitate those who want to be rehabilitated. This won't change until successive governments stop hiving stuff like this out to organisations who are trying to make margins. I know a few people who work in prisons and without saying which ones beyond the fact they are in Kent and South East London they all say the job is broken and they are permanently being totally reactive as opposed to proactive which is dangerous in any line of work
When talking about this subject, Ian Huntley is always the first person who comes to my mind
I think I saw that documentary when it first came out @i_b_b_o_r_g but thanks for posting it, I’ll watch it again in full when time permits. The points it’s making about new recruits (POELTs) is massive. When I joined you had to sit a basic English and maths test (and it was basic) then I had to attend again to sit JSACs, basically a number of roleplays to show how you handle certain situations. I remember my scenarios vividly. Once I’d shown I wasn’t completely inept at communicating with people I was sent for eleven weeks training where I was tutored by two old school senior officers who had roughly fifty five years experience between them. They regaled us with war stories, gave us their knowledge and tried to prepare us for what was to come. However they also made it perfectly clear that training was one thing and that you only begin to really learn the job after you pass out and start walking the landings. That was the biggest truth they ever passed onto us.
Fast forward to today and it’s frightening. It is undoubtedly easier to get into the prison service than it was, training is shorter and a lot of it is geared towards diversity rather than sewing the seeds of ‘jail craft’. I have heard of tutors who are training our new recruits that have only a couple of years experience themselves and that is just ridiculous. As a consequence the calibre of new recruits is a bit suspect. A lot have come out of PS college thinking they know it all, that they have nothing to learn. Instead of just sitting back, observing and asking us old heads questions on what it takes to be a decent screw they have a swagger they haven’t earned the right to walk with. I’m not sure if this is a generational thing (most of our newbies are aged 21-30) but there appears to be a know-it-all, disregard for elders attitude with some of them. Unfortunately this attitude is counterproductive when you’re dealing with individuals who by their very nature aren’t your average citizen. Throw in any number of mental health problems and approaching someone like that with a ‘just do as I say’ attitude is asking for trouble. They have to learn true jail craft, have to learn how to read a situation, how to gauge an atmosphere and that’s impossible if you strut around like RoboCop. Plus some of the new recruits are thick as mince and appear to have no common sense. I say some because there are some that seem to have what it takes so there is some hope.
I think I saw that documentary when it first came out @i_b_b_o_r_g but thanks for posting it, I’ll watch it again in full when time permits. The points it’s making about new recruits (POELTs) is massive. When I joined you had to sit a basic English and maths test (and it was basic) then I had to attend again to sit JSACs, basically a number of roleplays to show how you handle certain situations. I remember my scenarios vividly. Once I’d shown I wasn’t completely inept at communicating with people I was sent for eleven weeks training where I was tutored by two old school senior officers who had roughly fifty five years experience between them. They regaled us with war stories, gave us their knowledge and tried to prepare us for what was to come. However they also made it perfectly clear that training was one thing and that you only begin to really learn the job after you pass out and start walking the landings. That was the biggest truth they ever passed onto us.
Fast forward to today and it’s frightening. It is undoubtedly easier to get into the prison service than it was, training is shorter and a lot of it is geared towards diversity rather than sewing the seeds of ‘jail craft’. I have heard of tutors who are training our new recruits that have only a couple of years experience themselves and that is just ridiculous. As a consequence the calibre of new recruits is a bit suspect. A lot have come out of PS college thinking they know it all, that they have nothing to learn. Instead of just sitting back, observing and asking us old heads questions on what it takes to be a decent screw they have a swagger they haven’t earned the right to walk with. I’m not sure if this is a generational thing (most of our newbies are aged 21-30) but there appears to be a know-it-all, disregard for elders attitude with some of them. Unfortunately this attitude is counterproductive when you’re dealing with individuals who by their very nature aren’t your average citizen. Throw in any number of mental health problems and approaching someone like that with a ‘just do as I say’ attitude is asking for trouble. They have to learn true jail craft, have to learn how to read a situation, how to gauge an atmosphere and that’s impossible if you strut around like RoboCop. Plus some of the new recruits are thick as mince and appear to have no common sense. I say some because there are some that seem to have what it takes so there is some hope.
All this putting themselves, their colleagues and the inmates at risk I suspect
I think I saw that documentary when it first came out @i_b_b_o_r_g but thanks for posting it, I’ll watch it again in full when time permits. The points it’s making about new recruits (POELTs) is massive. When I joined you had to sit a basic English and maths test (and it was basic) then I had to attend again to sit JSACs, basically a number of roleplays to show how you handle certain situations. I remember my scenarios vividly. Once I’d shown I wasn’t completely inept at communicating with people I was sent for eleven weeks training where I was tutored by two old school senior officers who had roughly fifty five years experience between them. They regaled us with war stories, gave us their knowledge and tried to prepare us for what was to come. However they also made it perfectly clear that training was one thing and that you only begin to really learn the job after you pass out and start walking the landings. That was the biggest truth they ever passed onto us.
Fast forward to today and it’s frightening. It is undoubtedly easier to get into the prison service than it was, training is shorter and a lot of it is geared towards diversity rather than sewing the seeds of ‘jail craft’. I have heard of tutors who are training our new recruits that have only a couple of years experience themselves and that is just ridiculous. As a consequence the calibre of new recruits is a bit suspect. A lot have come out of PS college thinking they know it all, that they have nothing to learn. Instead of just sitting back, observing and asking us old heads questions on what it takes to be a decent screw they have a swagger they haven’t earned the right to walk with. I’m not sure if this is a generational thing (most of our newbies are aged 21-30) but there appears to be a know-it-all, disregard for elders attitude with some of them. Unfortunately this attitude is counterproductive when you’re dealing with individuals who by their very nature aren’t your average citizen. Throw in any number of mental health problems and approaching someone like that with a ‘just do as I say’ attitude is asking for trouble. They have to learn true jail craft, have to learn how to read a situation, how to gauge an atmosphere and that’s impossible if you strut around like RoboCop. Plus some of the new recruits are thick as mince and appear to have no common sense. I say some because there are some that seem to have what it takes so there is some hope.
All this putting themselves, their colleagues and the inmates at risk I suspect
I think I saw that documentary when it first came out @i_b_b_o_r_g but thanks for posting it, I’ll watch it again in full when time permits. The points it’s making about new recruits (POELTs) is massive. When I joined you had to sit a basic English and maths test (and it was basic) then I had to attend again to sit JSACs, basically a number of roleplays to show how you handle certain situations. I remember my scenarios vividly. Once I’d shown I wasn’t completely inept at communicating with people I was sent for eleven weeks training where I was tutored by two old school senior officers who had roughly fifty five years experience between them. They regaled us with war stories, gave us their knowledge and tried to prepare us for what was to come. However they also made it perfectly clear that training was one thing and that you only begin to really learn the job after you pass out and start walking the landings. That was the biggest truth they ever passed onto us.
Fast forward to today and it’s frightening. It is undoubtedly easier to get into the prison service than it was, training is shorter and a lot of it is geared towards diversity rather than sewing the seeds of ‘jail craft’. I have heard of tutors who are training our new recruits that have only a couple of years experience themselves and that is just ridiculous. As a consequence the calibre of new recruits is a bit suspect. A lot have come out of PS college thinking they know it all, that they have nothing to learn. Instead of just sitting back, observing and asking us old heads questions on what it takes to be a decent screw they have a swagger they haven’t earned the right to walk with. I’m not sure if this is a generational thing (most of our newbies are aged 21-30) but there appears to be a know-it-all, disregard for elders attitude with some of them. Unfortunately this attitude is counterproductive when you’re dealing with individuals who by their very nature aren’t your average citizen. Throw in any number of mental health problems and approaching someone like that with a ‘just do as I say’ attitude is asking for trouble. They have to learn true jail craft, have to learn how to read a situation, how to gauge an atmosphere and that’s impossible if you strut around like RoboCop. Plus some of the new recruits are thick as mince and appear to have no common sense. I say some because there are some that seem to have what it takes so there is some hope.
All this putting themselves, their colleagues and the inmates at risk I suspect
Only caught the last half an hour of it yesterday so will catch up. What I find amazing is that some inmates claim their innocence even after all the evidence proves they have done it.
Some of their crimes are so barbaric that they deserve it in my view. I feel sorry for the families of both parties in these situations.
If you have sky there is a lot of this type of programme on the documentary channel.
For the most heinous of crimes, when guilt is proven beyond absolutely any doubt, I think they should be gone with in a week.
There are numerous miscarriages of justice - the dead don't get a retrial.
The death penalty is barbaric - It's just another murder and demeans society.
That's why I said "proven beyond absolutely any doubt". When you also consider the advances in forensic science, cctv etc., I think that miscarriages of justice are far reduced. But as I said, people who are later found not guilty, are generally not found "guilty beyond absolutely any doubt" in the first place and there's usually a question marks in there somewhere,.
I don't know how anyone can get away with murder with all the advances in science and technology these days. Watch 24 hours in police custody that gives a good insight.
Isn't the eye for an eye trope all about cautioning people to be restrained and search for justice? Like, don't take a leg for a finger and suchlike?
I also wonder if justice ought to be about treating everybody the same. The desperate old person who steals a loaf because their pension has run out should be treated the same as a millionaire who steals a loaf for a thrill? Isn't justice about treating equals equally rather than treating everybody the same? It is all very complicated.
One idealistic part of me would like to see prisoners repairing roads or something, it seems such a waste for all these people to basically do nothing, but managing something like that is fraught with problems.
Isn't the eye for an eye trope all about cautioning people to be restrained and search for justice? Like, don't take a leg for a finger and suchlike?
I also wonder if justice ought to be about treating everybody the same. The desperate old person who steals a loaf because their pension has run out should be treated the same as a millionaire who steals a loaf for a thrill? Isn't justice about treating equals equally rather than treating everybody the same? It is all very complicated.
One idealistic part of me would like to see prisoners repairing roads or something, it seems such a waste for all these people to basically do nothing, but managing something like that is fraught with problems.
I would want them killed end of. I would push the button, open the trapdoor, pull the trigger, turn on old sparky with no qualms at all.
You're obviously a deep thinker.
So if someone killed your kin you wouldn't feel the same?
I don't doubt that cold blooded murderers deserve the death penalty, but there are two big reasons why we have to resist it. Firstly, you cannot fix miscarriages of judgement and these have happened and will happen and secondly, we have to be better than these pathetic bas**ards.
The point about revenge if they killed somebody you loved - yes I might very well want to seek them out and kill them and if I managed it, I would expect to be treated reasonably leniently, but the point is the state has to be above such acts.
Isn't the eye for an eye trope all about cautioning people to be restrained and search for justice? Like, don't take a leg for a finger and suchlike?
I also wonder if justice ought to be about treating everybody the same. The desperate old person who steals a loaf because their pension has run out should be treated the same as a millionaire who steals a loaf for a thrill? Isn't justice about treating equals equally rather than treating everybody the same? It is all very complicated.
One idealistic part of me would like to see prisoners repairing roads or something, it seems such a waste for all these people to basically do nothing, but managing something like that is fraught with problems.
Nah, anyone who thinks repairing roads is unskilled deserves the potholes they get
I agree with your thought process just not your particular choice of example
I would want them killed end of. I would push the button, open the trapdoor, pull the trigger, turn on old sparky with no qualms at all.
You're obviously a deep thinker.
So if someone killed your kin you wouldn't feel the same?
I don't doubt that cold blooded murderers deserve the death penalty, but there are two big reasons why we have to resist it. Firstly, you cannot fix miscarriages of judgement and these have happened and will happen and secondly, we have to be better than these pathetic bas**ards.
The point about revenge if they killed somebody you loved - yes I might very well want to seek them out and kill them and if I managed it, I would expect to be treated reasonably leniently, but the point is the state has to be above such acts.
I personally dont care if the victim was someone I knew and loved or not. I think that if guilt for certain crimes is proven beyond any doubt whatsoever, they should swing.
With evidence, like it's always been. Although you rightly point out that there has been miscarriages in the past, there's also been plenty of open and shut cases with 100% water tight evidence for the most abhorrent of crimes, those are the ones I'm referring to.
The Rigby killers and Ian Huntley to name two cases
But there will always be miscarriages or serious doubt that can come to light later! An MP supporter of the death penalty said quite a few years ago that he supported the death penalty along with the fact that the odd innocent person will be executed. He was criticised for that, but if you support the death penalty, it is the only honest position you can take! Yes,we know Huntley is guilty, but you have to have a process to prove absolute guilt and you or me knowing it, isn't sufficient. We may know somebody is guilty who turns out not to be for instance.
If people admit to their crime then there can be no concerns that an innocent person has lost their life.
Are you joking? Look up Timothy Evans. People admit to crimes they didn't commit all the time and for many reasons.
Including having it beaten out of them! You have to accept the odd innocent one will creep in! I have a problem with that but if you don't it opens the way to support capital punishment!
The death penalty doesn't act as a deterrent - I've not seen any evidence around the world to suggest it does.
I would wonder about the motives of why anyone working in the criminal justice system would want to execute somebody. Our most prolific hangman Albert Pierrepoint admitted in his memoirs that it failed as a deterrent.
I fail to see how you can take a life and for it not to affect you even if you are an executioner.
I would want them killed end of. I would push the button, open the trapdoor, pull the trigger, turn on old sparky with no qualms at all.
You're obviously a deep thinker.
So if someone killed your kin you wouldn't feel the same?
I don't doubt that cold blooded murderers deserve the death penalty, but there are two big reasons why we have to resist it. Firstly, you cannot fix miscarriages of judgement and these have happened and will happen and secondly, we have to be better than these pathetic bas**ards.
The point about revenge if they killed somebody you loved - yes I might very well want to seek them out and kill them and if I managed it, I would expect to be treated reasonably leniently, but the point is the state has to be above such acts.
But having a system that can prove guilt beyond any doubt is impossible. What do you do with those who are guilty beyond reasonable doubt - do you accentuate the possibility they could be innocent for example.
Some of those crimes are where the assailant batters the life out of somebody with a baseball bat, or other heavy object. Rapes, stabs shoots kids. The people who do this put themselves on the gurney, no-one else.
I do find the Americans a tad weird when it comes to the death penalty from start to finish and this series really confirms this to me. Religious nutters on both sides claiming their views are God’s word. Lot drawing for the media to view the death. Last meals given and then published as though they’ve given the condemned a treat. Cocktails of drugs used that were developed for life not assisting death. If you’re that keen to top people nitrogen will do the job painlessly in 15 seconds, like a lab rat. The filmed clemency hearings with the victims relatives. The “death chamber” and the efforts taken to make it look like a place where a medical procedure is performed. The warden drawing the event out by reading out the death warrant,as if the chap strapped down to the trolley might not be 100% clear why he’s got IV lines hanging out of his arms. The after gig press conference where they discuss did he or did he not die in agony and what were his last words. Bloody strange ritual.
Good BBC documentary.
I couldn’t kill a stranger, something strange about people who can.
Comments
Where do you stop though?
I grudgingly believe people deserve the opportunity to be rehabilitated and atone for what they have done. America has a huge problem with it's prison system and has for years because for those on death row or doing 500 year sentences there is nothing to be gained so become inhuman and unmanageable by prison staff.
I'm sure @AddickUpNorth can keep me honest here and from accounts of people I know who have spent time at her majesties pleasure, resource is so tight that money and staff are not available to rehabilitate those who want to be rehabilitated. This won't change until successive governments stop hiving stuff like this out to organisations who are trying to make margins. I know a few people who work in prisons and without saying which ones beyond the fact they are in Kent and South East London they all say the job is broken and they are permanently being totally reactive as opposed to proactive which is dangerous in any line of work
Carter, you are absolutely correct about rehabilitation and HMPS’ ability to do it effectively. Due to cuts over the past eight years the service is on its knees, it’s statement of purpose to help those in custody to change and live law abiding lives is meaningless. The system is now one of purely keeping those convicted by the courts away from society with little chance of change whilst inside. This doesn’t just come through psychologist approved offending behaviour courses which are offered but through interactions with officers and this has been hampered by a lack of staff. I work in the High Security estate so luckily we still have a decent (though by no means adequate) officer to prisoner ratio. The wing I work on holds 108 inmates and we operate with an SO and twelve. Our prisoners are lucky to have a decent amount of time out of cell, those who work are out practically all day. Even those who are unemployed still get around four hours association a day. Due to the fact prisoners at my jail are mostly all doing long sentences (66 lifers on my wing as of last Friday) and can stay with us for years we can establish positive working relationships and can work on pro-social modelling, we can at least try to convince the lads that there is a different life available to them. However go a local jail and it’s a different story entirely. They’re nothing more than disorganised hellholes where it really is survival of the fittest, rife with drugs, fear, bullying and despair. I’ll be honest, if I had to work at HMP Leeds or Hull for example then I’d quit the service. There is no way I’d want to risk my safety on a wing of 140 with just me and two or three others trying to keep control. It’s one thing working with inmates who you can really get to know over several years and another trying to contain men who you can never hope to get to understand nor build positive relationships with in a few months before they’re released.
Change is possible in prison but experience tells me that change comes from within the prisoner themselves, regardless of what OB courses are offered. Whether these OB programmes are fit for purpose is debatable, most just do them to tick off a Sentence Plan target. They have to be seen to be playing the game if they want release at some point in the future. Change usually comes with age and how sick of prison a person becomes.
So onto the subject of the death penalty. I have to admit to having a change of mind over the years. When I joined the job I was vehemently opposed to it, found it to be a barbaric and pointless exercise of retribution rather than any form of deterrent. However over the course of the past fourteen years, considering some of the individuals I’ve encountered there is a part of me that would not flinch if I was to hear a certain individual was to be executed. I could never do it myself nor would I want to work on Death Row but I wouldn’t lose sleep if someone else did. Working in the PS has definitely given me an insight into just who walks amongst us, what they’re capable of and this is the crux, just how irreparably evil they are.
Fast forward to today and it’s frightening. It is undoubtedly easier to get into the prison service than it was, training is shorter and a lot of it is geared towards diversity rather than sewing the seeds of ‘jail craft’. I have heard of tutors who are training our new recruits that have only a couple of years experience themselves and that is just ridiculous. As a consequence the calibre of new recruits is a bit suspect. A lot have come out of PS college thinking they know it all, that they have nothing to learn. Instead of just sitting back, observing and asking us old heads questions on what it takes to be a decent screw they have a swagger they haven’t earned the right to walk with. I’m not sure if this is a generational thing (most of our newbies are aged 21-30) but there appears to be a know-it-all, disregard for elders attitude with some of them. Unfortunately this attitude is counterproductive when you’re dealing with individuals who by their very nature aren’t your average citizen. Throw in any number of mental health problems and approaching someone like that with a ‘just do as I say’ attitude is asking for trouble. They have to learn true jail craft, have to learn how to read a situation, how to gauge an atmosphere and that’s impossible if you strut around like RoboCop. Plus some of the new recruits are thick as mince and appear to have no common sense. I say some because there are some that seem to have what it takes so there is some hope.
Some of their crimes are so barbaric that they deserve it in my view. I feel sorry for the families of both parties in these situations.
If you have sky there is a lot of this type of programme on the documentary channel.
I also wonder if justice ought to be about treating everybody the same. The desperate old person who steals a loaf because their pension has run out should be treated the same as a millionaire who steals a loaf for a thrill? Isn't justice about treating equals equally rather than treating everybody the same? It is all very complicated.
One idealistic part of me would like to see prisoners repairing roads or something, it seems such a waste for all these people to basically do nothing, but managing something like that is fraught with problems.
The point about revenge if they killed somebody you loved - yes I might very well want to seek them out and kill them and if I managed it, I would expect to be treated reasonably leniently, but the point is the state has to be above such acts.
I agree with your thought process just not your particular choice of example
The Rigby killers and Ian Huntley to name two cases
I would wonder about the motives of why anyone working in the criminal justice system would want to execute somebody. Our most prolific hangman Albert Pierrepoint admitted in his memoirs that it failed as a deterrent.
I fail to see how you can take a life and for it not to affect you even if you are an executioner.
Religious nutters on both sides claiming their views are God’s word.
Lot drawing for the media to view the death.
Last meals given and then published as though they’ve given the condemned a treat.
Cocktails of drugs used that were developed for life not assisting death. If you’re that keen to top people nitrogen will do the job painlessly in 15 seconds, like a lab rat.
The filmed clemency hearings with the victims relatives.
The “death chamber” and the efforts taken to make it look like a place where a medical procedure is performed.
The warden drawing the event out by reading out the death warrant,as if the chap strapped down to the trolley might not be 100% clear why he’s got IV lines hanging out of his arms.
The after gig press conference where they discuss did he or did he not die in agony and what were his last words.
Bloody strange ritual.
Good BBC documentary.
I couldn’t kill a stranger, something strange about people who can.